All Blacks 2023
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As opposed to asking the question, could the All Blacks win the World Cup based on current evidence, I think we should ask the question, does this side have the capability to win three hard games in a row (because that is what it will be).
I just doesn't seem likely at all. In 2020, we failed to win three games in a row all year.
In 2021, we won our first eight tests of the year against a pack of rubbish sides, then split the leger with the Boks. Beat USA, Wales and Italy, then were resoundingly beaten by Ireland and France.In 2022, there was the aberration vs Ireland, followed by the defeat to SA. We rebounded nicely, then lost to the Argies. Beat them the next week, then needed a get out of jail free card from Uncle Mat to beat the Aussies. We finally seemed to turn a corner, taking down, Aussie, Japan, Wales and a good Scottish side, then capitulated vs England.
This year, won four tests, and credit was fairly awarded, we shouldn't re-write history, but we have rocked up with the heat now on, and we have floundered. I offer a level of defence, because I think some of the criticism of players and the coaches is unfair, but Foster has failed - we could still win the WC of course, but it is just illogical. When has a side in such disarray won the WC?
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
BB is playing the gameplan... Will Jordan's big weakness is kicking and people want to play him at fullback? I don't follow. The modern-day game is one in the air, by working good competitive kicks, and kicking well for territory.
The hatred towards Barrett these days is a little bit bizarre. People are holding him up to unrealistic standards, watch that game without any knowledge of that New Zealand side, and I'm not really sure you'd come away with fullback as being the big issue.
Lack of punch from the bench, and the majority of our starting forwards, and a poor game from Will Jordan rate is far bigger issues for mine.
Yeah this. Either the gameplan is shit or BB isn't doing a good job of implementing it. If the problem is BB, then replace him with someone who can do a better job. I can't see Jordan filling that role when these are the tactics. Maybe DMac, but he'll also do the hybrid thing. At any rate, who we have at 15 is the least of our worries when the forwards fail to show up.
It kind of reminds me when I first joined TSF way back in 2004. Carlos was having a rough patch with that shitty flat backline experiment and there were strong calls here to get Mehrtens back in. Yeah didn't end well. Same too really with RM being the saviour that wasn't.
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks 2023:
Maybe DMac, but he'll also do the hybrid thing
It's probably too late now but McKenzie/Barrett worked at the start of the year
Mo'unga/Barrett has never worked very well
Also, if you go back a few years Barrett/McKenzie did work. Perhaps it's about the communication styles of individuals
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I've been happy to defend Foster, but the facts are, he has been in the job four years, been given more rope than anyone, despite hardly having scraps to work with, and yet we have turned up to the World Cup with the following issues:
- No backup blindside flanker. Like ffs Ian and company, you've had 40(?) tests since the last World Cup, and you rock up with Frizell and no defined backup. Relying on Blackadder is a fuck up in itself, because he has hardly taken to the field in the last two years. If they weren't going to trust Jacobson, then they needed to bring Ioane or Finau, and with the latter, they should have given him, or another alternative time in the saddle
- A captain who is arguably not the best in his position. The fact that it is arguable is a problem in itself. History won't reflect well on Cane, rightly or wrongly. Ardie Savea was and is an openside flanker who can do a good job at eight. Consistently when the heat goes on, we are left small in the pack. Whether it was Sotutu, or Jacobson, or whoever else, they needed to work on a robust, big bastard to play eight. Savea is awesome, but he isn't an 8... we had an imbalanced loose forward trio four years ago, yet haven't learnt.
- And as briefly mentioned in there, we have a whole schmozzle with number eight. What did Hoskins Sotutu really do wrong? Never really given a chance with the ABs, and then dropped for Jacobson, who I'm not sure they have faith in either. Were they looking at Grace? (Well once again that would be an error, relying on injury-prone Cantabs... hole in Ryan's selections so far)
- The halfback situation... they work four years, looking at different options, and then they get the World Cup year and settle on Finlay Christie. It is laughable. What did Weber ever do wrong? what did Fakatava do wrong? And closer to home, what have they ever seen from Christie himself for the ABs? Given chances last year, didn't take them, and was then dropped. Roigard in limited chances this year (and they have been limited, again a slight on the coaches), has not really put a foot wrong
- No backup second-five. You can argue the cases of Havili and ALB all you like, but the gameplan tweak since we have gone to Barrett at 12, basically means those two aren't options as viable number 12 backups. We need someone who can run hard over everything else. Quite how the coaches can't see that it is so fundamental to their own gameplan is bizarre...
- You can add in the fullback issue if you like, I personally think it is minor, and as I say, is more a criticism of the gameplan.
This probably only scratches the surface...
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As opposed to asking the question, could the All Blacks win the World Cup based on current evidence, I think we should ask the question, does this side have the capability to win three hard games in a row (because that is what it will be).
I just doesn't seem likely at all. In 2020, we failed to win three games in a row all year.
In 2021, we won our first eight tests of the year against a pack of rubbish sides, then split the leger with the Boks. Beat USA, Wales and Italy, then were resoundingly beaten by Ireland and France.In 2022, there was the aberration vs Ireland, followed by the defeat to SA. We rebounded nicely, then lost to the Argies. Beat them the next week, then needed a get out of jail free card from Uncle Mat to beat the Aussies. We finally seemed to turn a corner, taking down, Aussie, Japan, Wales and a good Scottish side, then capitulated vs England.
This year, won four tests, and credit was fairly awarded, we shouldn't re-write history, but we have rocked up with the heat now on, and we have floundered. I offer a level of defence, because I think some of the criticism of players and the coaches is unfair, but Foster has failed - we could still win the WC of course, but it is just illogical. When has a side in such disarray won the WC?
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
When has a side in such disarray won the WC?
France came close with even more disarray!
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Can I also say that JB at 15 played better than BB did? Or did the gameplan change?
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
When has a side in such disarray won the WC?
France came close with even more disarray!
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
When has a side in such disarray won the WC?
France came close with even more disarray!
Yeah but thats France. They specialise in that shit. They beat the ABs 2-0 in NZ all the way back in 1994 after losing to Canada who aren’t even at this years World Cup
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I've been happy to defend Foster, but the facts are, he has been in the job four years, been given more rope than anyone, despite hardly having scraps to work with, and yet we have turned up to the World Cup with the following issues:
- No backup blindside flanker. Like ffs Ian and company, you've had 40(?) tests since the last World Cup, and you rock up with Frizell and no defined backup. Relying on Blackadder is a fuck up in itself, because he has hardly taken to the field in the last two years. If they weren't going to trust Jacobson, then they needed to bring Ioane or Finau, and with the latter, they should have given him, or another alternative time in the saddle
- A captain who is arguably not the best in his position. The fact that it is arguable is a problem in itself. History won't reflect well on Cane, rightly or wrongly. Ardie Savea was and is an openside flanker who can do a good job at eight. Consistently when the heat goes on, we are left small in the pack. Whether it was Sotutu, or Jacobson, or whoever else, they needed to work on a robust, big bastard to play eight. Savea is awesome, but he isn't an 8... we had an imbalanced loose forward trio four years ago, yet haven't learnt.
- And as briefly mentioned in there, we have a whole schmozzle with number eight. What did Hoskins Sotutu really do wrong? Never really given a chance with the ABs, and then dropped for Jacobson, who I'm not sure they have faith in either. Were they looking at Grace? (Well once again that would be an error, relying on injury-prone Cantabs... hole in Ryan's selections so far)
- The halfback situation... they work four years, looking at different options, and then they get the World Cup year and settle on Finlay Christie. It is laughable. What did Weber ever do wrong? what did Fakatava do wrong? And closer to home, what have they ever seen from Christie himself for the ABs? Given chances last year, didn't take them, and was then dropped. Roigard in limited chances this year (and they have been limited, again a slight on the coaches), has not really put a foot wrong
- No backup second-five. You can argue the cases of Havili and ALB all you like, but the gameplan tweak since we have gone to Barrett at 12, basically means those two aren't options as viable number 12 backups. We need someone who can run hard over everything else. Quite how the coaches can't see that it is so fundamental to their own gameplan is bizarre...
- You can add in the fullback issue if you like, I personally think it is minor, and as I say, is more a criticism of the gameplan.
This probably only scratches the surface...
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BB is playing the gameplan... Will Jordan's big weakness is kicking and people want to play him at fullback? I don't follow. The modern-day game is one in the air, by working good competitive kicks, and kicking well for territory.
The hatred towards Barrett these days is a little bit bizarre. People are holding him up to unrealistic standards, watch that game without any knowledge of that New Zealand side, and I'm not really sure you'd come away with fullback as being the big issue.
Lack of punch from the bench, and the majority of our starting forwards, and a poor game from Will Jordan rate is far bigger issues for mine.
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
BB is playing the gameplan... Will Jordan's big weakness is kicking and people want to play him at fullback? I don't follow. The modern-day game is one in the air, by working good competitive kicks, and kicking well for territory.
The hatred towards Barrett these days is a little bit bizarre. People are holding him up to unrealistic standards, watch that game without any knowledge of that New Zealand side, and I'm not really sure you'd come away with fullback as being the big issue.
Lack of punch from the bench, and the majority of our starting forwards, and a poor game from Will Jordan rate is far bigger issues for mine.
Never more typified than Havili and Christie taking the field at the same time.
Jeepers…….
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
When has a side in such disarray won the WC?
France came close with even more disarray!
Yeah but thats France. They specialise in that shit. They beat the ABs 2-0 in NZ all the way back in 1994 after losing to Canada who aren’t even at this years World Cup
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2023:
Yeah but thats France. They specialise in that shit. They beat the ABs 2-0 in NZ all the way back in 1994 after losing to Canada who aren’t even at this years World Cup
That is so last Cup. This year's France is a different beast.
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After reading that you have been happy to defend Foster with What ?
You just rationalised yourself out of defending Foster.
@Chris Yes granted, it is a shade confusing.
I guess I'm saying, that I think Foster has been unlucky with some of these injuries, and we certainly lack in some of areas, I think the self-inflicted problems out-weigh the ones out of his control.
Example: Do I think it was Ian Foster's fault we lost that game in the weekend? No, not particularly, the key injuries in key positions was a severe handicap, in a close match. Do I think it was a specific player's fault? No not particularly, they didn't select themselves, and the only one who really do genuinely dumb shit was Will Jordan, who is generally world-class as a right winger.
It is a combination of factors, whereby we have come to the World Cup under-prepared, and I think as a wide stance Foster should and will take pelters.
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
When has a side in such disarray won the WC?
France came close with even more disarray!
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
When has a side in such disarray won the WC?
France came close with even more disarray!
Coming close isn't winning it though... that is kind of my point, we could come close, but the chance of us winning three tough games in a row feels under 10 at best.
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@mariner4life given most rugby we watch at present, lineouts are the more frequent set peice restart than scrums, having a functioning lineout becomes more crucial, particularly one that can pressure the opposition lineout.
And we didn’t pressure their lineout enough. I can understand not competing for a lineout on your own 5 metre line but to not compete on lineouts when you are in or near the opposition 22 is baffling
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@Chris Yes granted, it is a shade confusing.
I guess I'm saying, that I think Foster has been unlucky with some of these injuries, and we certainly lack in some of areas, I think the self-inflicted problems out-weigh the ones out of his control.
Example: Do I think it was Ian Foster's fault we lost that game in the weekend? No, not particularly, the key injuries in key positions was a severe handicap, in a close match. Do I think it was a specific player's fault? No not particularly, they didn't select themselves, and the only one who really do genuinely dumb shit was Will Jordan, who is generally world-class as a right winger.
It is a combination of factors, whereby we have come to the World Cup under-prepared, and I think as a wide stance Foster should and will take pelters.
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
Example: Do I think it was Ian Foster's fault we lost that game in the weekend? No, not particularly, the key injuries in key positions was a severe handicap,
think we're always going to disagree on this, as ive said before its not 2011 where we had several injuries to one position....one injury to 6 and one to 12 caused problems....its literally the coaches jobs to plan for likely events...having a plan for one injury to a position is firmly in his wheelhouse
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As a bottom line, the All Blacks should come to a World Cup, with a capable backup in every position in the case of an injury, perhaps save first five, where if you don't have a good one, there is little you can do about it.
This All Black team doesn't have a defined and/or capable backup at 6, 8, 9 or 12. I am not even sure we are really like for like at prop. It's like Foster has tried to pick the 'best' players, without actually working out how they fit into his gameplan.
Is Dallas McLeod the finished article? Shit no, but this argument was had about like for like before the World Cup, and I think most people conceded that he is the closest in play-style to Jordie Barrett.
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@Chris Yes granted, it is a shade confusing.
I guess I'm saying, that I think Foster has been unlucky with some of these injuries, and we certainly lack in some of areas, I think the self-inflicted problems out-weigh the ones out of his control.
Example: Do I think it was Ian Foster's fault we lost that game in the weekend? No, not particularly, the key injuries in key positions was a severe handicap, in a close match. Do I think it was a specific player's fault? No not particularly, they didn't select themselves, and the only one who really do genuinely dumb shit was Will Jordan, who is generally world-class as a right winger.
It is a combination of factors, whereby we have come to the World Cup under-prepared, and I think as a wide stance Foster should and will take pelters.
I put it in perspective 4 years in charge as HC, 8 years previous as an assistant coach 12 years in the AB environment as a coach.
That would make you think we would have come to this WC in a better state game plan,Selections etc.If Foster was up to the job he would have been better He would have achieved bugger all of his KPI's.
We have lost a lot of Respect as a Rugby nation under Fosters reign.Should he not be put under the spotlight as HC for the state we are in.
I blame Foster for most of the shit we are in. -
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
Example: Do I think it was Ian Foster's fault we lost that game in the weekend? No, not particularly, the key injuries in key positions was a severe handicap,
think we're always going to disagree on this, as ive said before its not 2011 where we had several injuries to one position....one injury to 6 and one to 12 caused problems....its literally the coaches jobs to plan for likely events...having a plan for one injury to a position is firmly in his wheelhouse
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
Example: Do I think it was Ian Foster's fault we lost that game in the weekend? No, not particularly, the key injuries in key positions was a severe handicap,
think we're always going to disagree on this, as ive said before its not 2011 where we had several injuries to one position....one injury to 6 and one to 12 caused problems....its literally the coaches jobs to plan for likely events...having a plan for one injury to a position is firming in his wheelhouse
Funnily enough, I think we pretty much agree, I guess you are just harsher than me. I think it is a major criticism to Foster that we don't have these backups, but then at the same time, he is bloody unlucky to lose Lomax, Retallick, Frizell, Cane and Jordie Barrett... we could have lost say Taylor, Whitelock, Ioane, Telea and B Barrett and had way less issues.
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
Example: Do I think it was Ian Foster's fault we lost that game in the weekend? No, not particularly, the key injuries in key positions was a severe handicap,
think we're always going to disagree on this, as ive said before its not 2011 where we had several injuries to one position....one injury to 6 and one to 12 caused problems....its literally the coaches jobs to plan for likely events...having a plan for one injury to a position is firming in his wheelhouse
Funnily enough, I think we pretty much agree, I guess you are just harsher than me. I think it is a major criticism to Foster that we don't have these backups, but then at the same time, he is bloody unlucky to lose Lomax, Retallick, Frizell, Cane and Jordie Barrett... we could have lost say Taylor, Whitelock, Ioane, Telea and B Barrett and had way less issues.
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
Example: Do I think it was Ian Foster's fault we lost that game in the weekend? No, not particularly, the key injuries in key positions was a severe handicap,
think we're always going to disagree on this, as ive said before its not 2011 where we had several injuries to one position....one injury to 6 and one to 12 caused problems....its literally the coaches jobs to plan for likely events...having a plan for one injury to a position is firming in his wheelhouse
Funnily enough, I think we pretty much agree, I guess you are just harsher than me. I think it is a major criticism to Foster that we don't have these backups, but then at the same time, he is bloody unlucky to lose Lomax, Retallick, Frizell, Cane and Jordie Barrett... we could have lost say Taylor, Whitelock, Ioane, Telea and B Barrett and had way less issues.
….and been beaten 27-0 instead.
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I put it in perspective 4 years in charge as HC, 8 years previous as an assistant coach 12 years in the AB environment as a coach.
That would make you think we would have come to this WC in a better state game plan,Selections etc.If Foster was up to the job he would have been better He would have achieved bugger all of his KPI's.
We have lost a lot of Respect as a Rugby nation under Fosters reign.Should he not be put under the spotlight as HC for the state we are in.
I blame Foster for most of the shit we are in.@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
I put it in perspective 4 years in charge as HC, 8 years previous as an assistant coach 12 years in the AB environment as a coach.
That would make you think we would have come to this WC in a better state game plan,Selections etc.If Foster was up to the job he would have been better He would have achieved bugger all of his KPI's.
We have lost a lot of Respect as a Rugby nation under Fosters reign.Should he not be put under the spotlight as HC for the state we are in.
I blame Foster for most of the shit we are in.And so do I... what I'm saying is, as a one-off game, I think criticising Foster for the game in the weekend is a little stupid.
But it is largely Foster's fault we are in this position... but I'll caveat this by saying, I think we have come ill-prepared because of a lack of like for like backups, but I will also ask the question whether they actually exist? But the fact Foster hasn't at least attempted is a massive blight on him.
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
Example: Do I think it was Ian Foster's fault we lost that game in the weekend? No, not particularly, the key injuries in key positions was a severe handicap,
think we're always going to disagree on this, as ive said before its not 2011 where we had several injuries to one position....one injury to 6 and one to 12 caused problems....its literally the coaches jobs to plan for likely events...having a plan for one injury to a position is firming in his wheelhouse
Funnily enough, I think we pretty much agree, I guess you are just harsher than me. I think it is a major criticism to Foster that we don't have these backups, but then at the same time, he is bloody unlucky to lose Lomax, Retallick, Frizell, Cane and Jordie Barrett... we could have lost say Taylor, Whitelock, Ioane, Telea and B Barrett and had way less issues.
….and been beaten 27-0 instead.
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
Example: Do I think it was Ian Foster's fault we lost that game in the weekend? No, not particularly, the key injuries in key positions was a severe handicap,
think we're always going to disagree on this, as ive said before its not 2011 where we had several injuries to one position....one injury to 6 and one to 12 caused problems....its literally the coaches jobs to plan for likely events...having a plan for one injury to a position is firming in his wheelhouse
Funnily enough, I think we pretty much agree, I guess you are just harsher than me. I think it is a major criticism to Foster that we don't have these backups, but then at the same time, he is bloody unlucky to lose Lomax, Retallick, Frizell, Cane and Jordie Barrett... we could have lost say Taylor, Whitelock, Ioane, Telea and B Barrett and had way less issues.
….and been beaten 27-0 instead.
Sub in Fainga'anuku, and it isn't a major drop in levels is it. Like for like, obviously I think Telea is better, but It doesn't materially impact the gameplan.
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@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
I put it in perspective 4 years in charge as HC, 8 years previous as an assistant coach 12 years in the AB environment as a coach.
That would make you think we would have come to this WC in a better state game plan,Selections etc.If Foster was up to the job he would have been better He would have achieved bugger all of his KPI's.
We have lost a lot of Respect as a Rugby nation under Fosters reign.Should he not be put under the spotlight as HC for the state we are in.
I blame Foster for most of the shit we are in.And so do I... what I'm saying is, as a one-off game, I think criticising Foster for the game in the weekend is a little stupid.
But it is largely Foster's fault we are in this position... but I'll caveat this by saying, I think we have come ill-prepared because of a lack of like for like backups, but I will also ask the question whether they actually exist? But the fact Foster hasn't at least attempted is a massive blight on him.
