All Blacks 2023
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But herp derp change the fullback and we'll win.
Typical TSF miss the point. I haven't seen a single post say that.
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2023:
But herp derp change the fullback and we'll win.
Typical TSF miss the point. I haven't seen a single post say that.
It's the implication from hundreds of fucking posts discussing Beaudy after the weekend as if he's the issue. It's delusional and ignorant.
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby but BB is kicking poorly (the worldy on the weekend being the exception)
for me its straight forward, to get the ball to our weapons at 11,13,14 it needs to go through a second Boss which is normally the 15, 9 > 10 > 12 > 13 > 11/14 just doesnt work against the rust defence....but when we go through BB either of 9 or 10....he kicks it. I would like to see the 15 actually inject himself and either draw a defender before unleashing other....or if he times it right breaking the line
I feel Jordan is more likely to do that than BB
You can debate the first point if you want, personally I think his general range kicking was actually fairly good, and was something noted at the time.
With your second point, your basically just saying you don't like Foster's tactics with ball in hand, and you'd like to see us do something different. If Beauden Barrett wasn't following the gameplan, contrary to popular belief, he'd have been dropped. If the coaches didn't want him to do the chip kicks, he'd stop doing them, or he wouldn't be playing.
Barrett (and to a lesser extent Mo'unga) have just become the fall guys for when the All Blacks attack goes wrong.
I find it exceedingly odd that numerous people on this forum keep complaining about the fullback in modern Test rugby. The issue is the ability to secure quick ruck ball on the front foot. Address that and the picture changes immensely.
But herp derp change the fullback and we'll win.
@antipodean I saw somewhere that the ABs were recycling ruck ball in just over 3 seconds against France. Not sure if that was across the whole match, or for a period. in that period at the end of the first half, the ruck speed was super quick and the French weren't coping.
French ruck speed was around 5 seconds, which is v slow for them.
So ABs did manage to generate fast ruck ball, they just didn't take the opportunities they were presented with. The French then slowed everything down to a crawl, which suited their gameplan and their big players.
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@antipodean I saw somewhere that the ABs were recycling ruck ball in just over 3 seconds against France. Not sure if that was across the whole match, or for a period. in that period at the end of the first half, the ruck speed was super quick and the French weren't coping.
French ruck speed was around 5 seconds, which is v slow for them.
So ABs did manage to generate fast ruck ball, they just didn't take the opportunities they were presented with. The French then slowed everything down to a crawl, which suited their gameplan and their big players.
@stodders said in All Blacks 2023:
@antipodean I saw somewhere that the ABs were recycling ruck ball in just over 3 seconds against France. Not sure if that was across the whole match, or for a period. in that period at the end of the first half, the ruck speed was super quick and the French weren't coping.
French ruck speed was around 5 seconds, which is v slow for them.
So ABs did manage to generate fast ruck ball, they just didn't take the opportunities they were presented with. The French then slowed everything down to a crawl, which suited their gameplan and their big players.
Ys. That first half we were dictating the game and if not for some poor handling and last pass decisions making would've had two or more additional tries. Then the second half momentum swung with penalties and the bench couldn't address it.
If I was a coach, that first half would give me some confidence and the second half the work-ons.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2023:
But herp derp change the fullback and we'll win.
Typical TSF miss the point. I haven't seen a single post say that.
It's the implication from hundreds of fucking posts discussing Beaudy after the weekend as if he's the issue. It's delusional and ignorant.
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2023:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2023:
But herp derp change the fullback and we'll win.
Typical TSF miss the point. I haven't seen a single post say that.
It's the implication from hundreds of fucking posts discussing Beaudy after the weekend as if he's the issue. It's delusional and ignorant.
He's AN Issue amongst other issues. Not the exclusive issue.
An issue that sums up the Foster era. Stubbornly sticking with a player despite piling amounts of evidence that he's past it. Just like he sticks with Christie on the bench - just like he sticks with an unbalanced backrow. Etc etc.
Delusional and Ignorant actually is a good summary of the Foster era.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2023:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2023:
But herp derp change the fullback and we'll win.
Typical TSF miss the point. I haven't seen a single post say that.
It's the implication from hundreds of fucking posts discussing Beaudy after the weekend as if he's the issue. It's delusional and ignorant.
He's AN Issue amongst other issues. Not the exclusive issue.
An issue that sums up the Foster era. Stubbornly sticking with a player despite piling amounts of evidence that he's past it. Just like he sticks with Christie on the bench - just like he sticks with an unbalanced backrow. Etc etc.
Delusional and Ignorant actually is a good summary of the Foster era.
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2023:
He's AN Issue amongst other issues. Not the exclusive issue.
Exactly one of many, but one that puts the forwards under pressure by making them play so much in our half (and this is no just beaudies fault, this is a clear Foster tactic) and also puts the backs under pressure with his poor performances.
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
you say we dont have like for like back ups....most teams dont...and its the coaches job to have a plan B that works with the B players...and a plan C that works with the C players...and probably a plan D that is so simple he could explain it to someone brand new who has been brought in at half time in the world cup final
That's fairy tale thinking. Players require clarity so they can execute when exhausted and then play what's in front of them after a few phases if successful. If they haven't broken down the defence and made ground, they have a defined pattern to know what to do with.
You don't waste time formulating an entire plan because you've sent on two blokes that aren't first choice in their position ffs.
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
you say we dont have like for like back ups....most teams dont...and its the coaches job to have a plan B that works with the B players...and a plan C that works with the C players...and probably a plan D that is so simple he could explain it to someone brand new who has been brought in at half time in the world cup final
That's fairy tale thinking. Players require clarity so they can execute when exhausted and then play what's in front of them after a few phases if successful. If they haven't broken down the defence and made ground, they have a defined pattern to know what to do with.
You don't waste time formulating an entire plan because you've sent on two blokes that aren't first choice in their position ffs.
we literally do it in club rugby when we only train for 2 hours twice a week, we have variations on calls if we've had to call up guys from the 3rd, pods formations change, if our kicking fullback is out and someone is covering....we dont kick as much, if our running 8 is out we go through the backline more often....its not like for like
ive seen it at super level with the highlanders, when we had to stick gilbert at 10 after everyone else was injured and they changed the style of 10 to accommodate with smith taking more of the decision making at 9
the fact we dont think the 32 best rugby players can do the same is ridiculous
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@antipodean I saw somewhere that the ABs were recycling ruck ball in just over 3 seconds against France. Not sure if that was across the whole match, or for a period. in that period at the end of the first half, the ruck speed was super quick and the French weren't coping.
French ruck speed was around 5 seconds, which is v slow for them.
So ABs did manage to generate fast ruck ball, they just didn't take the opportunities they were presented with. The French then slowed everything down to a crawl, which suited their gameplan and their big players.
@stodders said in All Blacks 2023:
@antipodean I saw somewhere that the ABs were recycling ruck ball in just over 3 seconds against France. Not sure if that was across the whole match, or for a period. in that period at the end of the first half, the ruck speed was super quick and the French weren't coping.
French ruck speed was around 5 seconds, which is v slow for them.
So ABs did manage to generate fast ruck ball, they just didn't take the opportunities they were presented with. The French then slowed everything down to a crawl, which suited their gameplan and their big players.
Ruck speed seconds France NZ 0-3 25 45 3-6 17 21 6+ 10 7 Rucks below 3sec:
France: 42%
NZ: 56% -
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
you say we dont have like for like back ups....most teams dont...and its the coaches job to have a plan B that works with the B players...and a plan C that works with the C players...and probably a plan D that is so simple he could explain it to someone brand new who has been brought in at half time in the world cup final
That's fairy tale thinking. Players require clarity so they can execute when exhausted and then play what's in front of them after a few phases if successful. If they haven't broken down the defence and made ground, they have a defined pattern to know what to do with.
You don't waste time formulating an entire plan because you've sent on two blokes that aren't first choice in their position ffs.
we literally do it in club rugby when we only train for 2 hours twice a week, we have variations on calls if we've had to call up guys from the 3rd, pods formations change, if our kicking fullback is out and someone is covering....we dont kick as much, if our running 8 is out we go through the backline more often....its not like for like
ive seen it at super level with the highlanders, when we had to stick gilbert at 10 after everyone else was injured and they changed the style of 10 to accommodate with smith taking more of the decision making at 9
the fact we dont think the 32 best rugby players can do the same is ridiculous
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
you say we dont have like for like back ups....most teams dont...and its the coaches job to have a plan B that works with the B players...and a plan C that works with the C players...and probably a plan D that is so simple he could explain it to someone brand new who has been brought in at half time in the world cup final
That's fairy tale thinking. Players require clarity so they can execute when exhausted and then play what's in front of them after a few phases if successful. If they haven't broken down the defence and made ground, they have a defined pattern to know what to do with.
You don't waste time formulating an entire plan because you've sent on two blokes that aren't first choice in their position ffs.
we literally do it in club rugby when we only train for 2 hours twice a week, we have variations on calls if we've had to call up guys from the 3rd, pods formations change, if our kicking fullback is out and someone is covering....we dont kick as much, if our running 8 is out we go through the backline more often....its not like for like
Calls follow a pattern so that people don't get confused.
Problem: Our lineout is getting dominated at 4 and 2. Can't throw long because the hooker sucks.
Solution: Stop kicking the ball out.Problem: Our scrum is getting mollered.
Solution: More quick taps.Problem: Our 8 can't run with the ball.
Solution: Don't have the 8 run with the ball.ive seen it at super level with the highlanders, when we had to stick gilbert at 10 after everyone else was injured and they changed the style of 10 to accommodate with smith taking more of the decision making at 9
Problem: Our 10 is green but we have one of the best 9s.
Solution: So have the 9 make more decisions to help the 10.None of this is a different plan, it's common fucking sense for anyone that's been playing longer than eight minutes. They're options to manage the game
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
you say we dont have like for like back ups....most teams dont...and its the coaches job to have a plan B that works with the B players...and a plan C that works with the C players...and probably a plan D that is so simple he could explain it to someone brand new who has been brought in at half time in the world cup final
That's fairy tale thinking. Players require clarity so they can execute when exhausted and then play what's in front of them after a few phases if successful. If they haven't broken down the defence and made ground, they have a defined pattern to know what to do with.
You don't waste time formulating an entire plan because you've sent on two blokes that aren't first choice in their position ffs.
we literally do it in club rugby when we only train for 2 hours twice a week, we have variations on calls if we've had to call up guys from the 3rd, pods formations change, if our kicking fullback is out and someone is covering....we dont kick as much, if our running 8 is out we go through the backline more often....its not like for like
Calls follow a pattern so that people don't get confused.
Problem: Our lineout is getting dominated at 4 and 2. Can't throw long because the hooker sucks.
Solution: Stop kicking the ball out.Problem: Our scrum is getting mollered.
Solution: More quick taps.Problem: Our 8 can't run with the ball.
Solution: Don't have the 8 run with the ball.ive seen it at super level with the highlanders, when we had to stick gilbert at 10 after everyone else was injured and they changed the style of 10 to accommodate with smith taking more of the decision making at 9
Problem: Our 10 is green but we have one of the best 9s.
Solution: So have the 9 make more decisions to help the 10.None of this is a different plan, it's common fucking sense for anyone that's been playing longer than eight minutes. They're options to manage the game
@antipodean ....how is playing differently...not a different gameplan? one week we have a great kicker and so play towards that, feeding to him in the pocket with chasers ready, he's not available the next week so we have to bring someone in thats cant kick as well...so we spend the week training to go through the backline or keep it tight to the forwards depending on who we're playing against
those are different gameplans depending on the stock we have
The point is we seem to be saying any AB in a position should be able to play the same way so nothing changes...and they arent...and thats causing issues because we dont have like for like replacements
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Is it fair to criticise both Barrett and Foster? If we agree the tactics are shite, then I think it is reasonable to say that Barrett might not look shit under Razor for example.
For all the improvements in the Blues, one of the big critiques, particularly this year, was that they rely on the individual brilliance of a couple of backs (generally Rieko and Telea), so could argue he has been victim of playing in poorly set-up sides.
It is also possible, granted that age/the head knocks have caught up with him, but at his scintillating best, he was considered to be the best player in the world, and that wasn't as a bench player, that was as a world-class first five.
He is only 32, so not exactly over the hill. Having seen the renaissance of Shaun Johnson for the Warriors this year, playing in a good, coherent structure, is it unreasonable to suggest that under Razor, we could have seen a similar revival from Barrett? We will likely never know the answer, but I find it hard to believe Barrett became shit overnight.
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how many of those "fast rucks" were the messy ones where the ball squirted out because the French got a hand to it?
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2023:
how many of those "fast rucks" were the messy ones where the ball squirted out because the French got a hand to it?
Obviously that wouldn't show up there. It would partially show up in subjective stats like 'bad passes' (France 10, NZ 16)
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@antipodean ....how is playing differently...not a different gameplan? one week we have a great kicker and so play towards that, feeding to him in the pocket with chasers ready, he's not available the next week so we have to bring someone in thats cant kick as well...so we spend the week training to go through the backline or keep it tight to the forwards depending on who we're playing against
those are different gameplans depending on the stock we have
The point is we seem to be saying any AB in a position should be able to play the same way so nothing changes...and they arent...and thats causing issues because we dont have like for like replacements
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@antipodean ....how is playing differently...not a different gameplan? o
It isn't a different plan, it's simply an available variation you can adopt depending on the game status. It doesn't require changes to the team to implement.
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@antipodean ....how is playing differently...not a different gameplan? one week we have a great kicker and so play towards that, feeding to him in the pocket with chasers ready, he's not available the next week so we have to bring someone in thats cant kick as well...so we spend the week training to go through the backline or keep it tight to the forwards depending on who we're playing against
those are different gameplans depending on the stock we have
The point is we seem to be saying any AB in a position should be able to play the same way so nothing changes...and they arent...and thats causing issues because we dont have like for like replacements
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@antipodean ....how is playing differently...not a different gameplan? one week we have a great kicker and so play towards that, feeding to him in the pocket with chasers ready, he's not available the next week so we have to bring someone in thats cant kick as well...so we spend the week training to go through the backline or keep it tight to the forwards depending on who we're playing against
those are different gameplans depending on the stock we have
The point is we seem to be saying any AB in a position should be able to play the same way so nothing changes...and they arent...and thats causing issues because we dont have like for like replacements
It's nuances I suppose. Realistically, the overall principles of the gameplan shouldn't really change, perhaps barring one-off situations where the coach tries to counteract the opposition, but that is rarely applicable in rugby, because the game is largely played with 15 players running from in front of 15 defenders.
For the All Blacks, I don't think losing one player should drastically change the gameplan, because when you have that many players to choose from, you should be able to pick a squad which allows you to roughly stick to Plan A. Going to Plan B right off the bat because of one injury feels short-sighted to me.
I think losing Aaron Smith is the only place where I could accept not being able to follow Plan A, because there is nobody in the world who can provide the key thing he brings to the game - speed to the ruck, and accuracy of pass. Don't get me wrong, there are others who are very good, but nobody on Smith's level, so you'd need to adapt there. But to me, losing Jordie Barrett and Shannon Frizell shouldn't really fuck up your whole gameplan.
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@antipodean ....how is playing differently...not a different gameplan? o
It isn't a different plan, it's simply an available variation you can adopt depending on the game status. It doesn't require changes to the team to implement.
@antipodean can you elaborate on what you would constitute a different gameplan? im not talking about game status, im talking from week to week depending on who we have, who were playing and what they have
regardless of the use of the term "gameplan", what i and i think other are saying is its not unreasonable to say different players have different strengths and weaknesses and we should have variations depending on who you put out there to play to their strengths...rather than expecting everyone to be able to do exactly the same thing
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Is it fair to criticise both Barrett and Foster? If we agree the tactics are shite, then I think it is reasonable to say that Barrett might not look shit under Razor for example.
For all the improvements in the Blues, one of the big critiques, particularly this year, was that they rely on the individual brilliance of a couple of backs (generally Rieko and Telea), so could argue he has been victim of playing in poorly set-up sides.
It is also possible, granted that age/the head knocks have caught up with him, but at his scintillating best, he was considered to be the best player in the world, and that wasn't as a bench player, that was as a world-class first five.
He is only 32, so not exactly over the hill. Having seen the renaissance of Shaun Johnson for the Warriors this year, playing in a good, coherent structure, is it unreasonable to suggest that under Razor, we could have seen a similar revival from Barrett? We will likely never know the answer, but I find it hard to believe Barrett became shit overnight.
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Yes because Barrett was also shit for The Blues so that is a form thing and probably should not have been selected on form not reputation..
Yes Foster because of all the other shit mentioned.@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
Yes because Barrett was also shit for The Blues so that is a form thing and probably should not have been selected on form not reputation..
You ignore what I said about the Blues though... was Barrett also shit at the Blues because of the structures, which were largely found wanting? The Blues got out of jail many a time because of Ioane and Telea... we will never get a true answer on whether it is coaching, because we aren't going to see him under Razor I don't think.
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@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
Yes because Barrett was also shit for The Blues so that is a form thing and probably should not have been selected on form not reputation..
You ignore what I said about the Blues though... was Barrett also shit at the Blues because of the structures, which were largely found wanting? The Blues got out of jail many a time because of Ioane and Telea... we will never get a true answer on whether it is coaching, because we aren't going to see him under Razor I don't think.
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@antipodean can you elaborate on what you would constitute a different gameplan? im not talking about game status, im talking from week to week depending on who we have, who were playing and what they have
regardless of the use of the term "gameplan", what i and i think other are saying is its not unreasonable to say different players have different strengths and weaknesses and we should have variations depending on who you put out there to play to their strengths...rather than expecting everyone to be able to do exactly the same thing
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@antipodean can you elaborate on what you would constitute a different gameplan? im not talking about game status, im talking from week to week depending on who we have, who were playing and what they have
regardless of the use of the term "gameplan", what i and i think other are saying is its not unreasonable to say different players have different strengths and weaknesses and we should have variations depending on who you put out there to play to their strengths...rather than expecting everyone to be able to do exactly the same thing
Do you think though, that when you pick your squad, you should be looking for key attributes?
Example, is J Barrett's carrying more important than his playmaking/kicking?
If the answer is yes, you'd pick McLeod, and then simplify his options down to the core role. Or vice-versa, pick Havili and you don't use the carrying element as much.The issue for mine, is Havili and ALB bring the added extra J Barrett offers, and arguably in some aspects do them better, but they can't bring the key thing J Barrett offers - carrying.
I feel like adaptions should be small, or as someone else said, simplifying the gameplan, as opposed to changing it. Basically, an option 1 and and an option 1a, rather than going from option 1 to option 2.
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So Barrett is only shit because the structures of every team he plays for,It seems to be there is a common theme,Barrett is now not playing well .
@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
So Barrett is only shit because the structures of every team he plays for,It seems to be there is a common theme,Barrett is now not playing well .
I'm posing it as a question... to me, the question is, do we think Barrett could go from being the best player in the world, to being in his current form so quickly, even accounting for age and the head knocks. To me it seems unlikely?
