Scott Kuggeleijn sex trial
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Mokey" data-cid="601201" data-time="1469761933">
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<p>Absolutely agree in all claims being taken seriously, AND in innocent until proven guilty.</p>
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<p>One thing that makes my blood boil though, is the line of thinking 'if x truly happened why didn't he/she do or say y'.</p>
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<p>Everyone reacts differently to trauma of any kind, and this is taking a whole lot of factors into account.</p>
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<p>If the brain can process the event. How fast (if at all) it can get past the what the hell is going on/I can't believe this/why me bit.</p>
<p>If their life or wellbeing is at serious risk.</p>
<p>If there is a method of escape or not, or if all that can be done is mitigation.</p>
<p>If it is something that has happened before, how they coped, and what the outcome was (PTSD)</p>
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<p>A massive surge of adrenaline doesn't mean shit when the brain is scrambled to the point of paralysis.</p>
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<p>A lawyer in Wellington a few years back asked why a rape victim didn't just close her legs when she was being raped by a bouncer in town (he was later convicted).</p>
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<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/9397528/Rape-victim-could-have-closed-legs-says-lawyer'>http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/9397528/Rape-victim-could-have-closed-legs-says-lawyer</a></p> -
<p>As a side note.. this case shows why you should never ever talk to cops until you absolutely have to. </p>
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<p>When my kids are old enough they will watch this video. Highly recommend everyone spend the time watching it.</p>
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<p>Think this was posted on TSF previously?</p> -
<p>It was but well worth another share. Excellent vid.</p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="601205" data-time="1469762541">
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<p>As a side note.. this case shows why you should never ever talk to cops until you absolutely have to. </p>
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<p>Are you talking about in a capacity as a suspect/offender, or in general, i.e if you were a witness to something? I have every intention of watching the video, but don't have 48 minutes at the moment. I watched the first 5 minutes and it looked interesting.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="aucklandwarlord" data-cid="601209" data-time="1469762904">
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<p>Are you talking about in a capacity as a suspect/offender, or in general, i.e if you were a witness to something? I have every intention of watching the video, but don't have 48 minutes at the moment. I watched the first 5 minutes and it looked interestin</p>
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<p>The genral gist is never unless you are reporting a crime or are uvery obviously just a witness.</p>
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<p>It appears in the Kuggeleijn case what he said to police is ... not helping him</p> -
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<p>I feel very sorry for both parties in this case from what I have read. It looks like she may have felt she had no choice then felt violated while he felt that he did the right thing and when his morning advances weren't met with a 'no', then that was a 'yes'.</p>
<p>I can see how easy the situation could have developed.</p>
<p>Hard part will be how to deal with it. It seems cruel to dismiss her accusation and cruel to place a sex crime on him.</p>
<p>Poor communication can lead to some very messy situations.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="602198" data-time="1470058255">
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<p>I feel very sorry for both parties in this case from what I have read. It looks like she may have felt she had no choice then felt violated while he felt that he did the right thing and when his morning advances weren't met with a 'no', then that was a 'yes'.</p>
<p>I can see how easy the situation could have developed.</p>
<p>Hard part will be how to deal with it. It seems cruel to dismiss her accusation and cruel to place a sex crime on him.</p>
<p>Poor communication can lead to some very messy situations.</p>
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<p>Yeah I think when we think about sex offences, we tend to imagine the girl snatched off the street by a masked stranger but the reality is far more murky</p>
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<p>In the same vein, it seems crazy that we teach our kids so much about stranger danger or safety in public places when, statistically speaking, a person is far more likely to be sexually assaulted by someone known to them (relative, neighbour, intimate partner, friend), yet that is almost never spoken about. </p>
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<p>The extent of my sexual abuse awareness learning when I was a kid was this video, starring Rolf Harris. I sure hope it's moved on from there...</p>
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<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href=' -
<p>He has...</p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="602198" data-time="1470058255">
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<p>I feel very sorry for both parties in this case from what I have read. It looks like she may have felt she had no choice then felt violated while he felt that he did the right thing and when his morning advances weren't met with a 'no', then that was a 'yes'.</p>
<p>I can see how easy the situation could have developed.</p>
<p>Hard part will be how to deal with it. It seems cruel to dismiss her accusation and cruel to place a sex crime on him.</p>
<p>Poor communication can lead to some very messy situations.</p>
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<p>if the facts are that she was awake, sober and he believed he had consent then there is no rape. you simply can't destroy someone's life with that sort of massive stigma because you didn't say no and then regretted it afterwards, not matter how much you regret it, or how much you felt 'pressured'. </p>
<p>if she had previously said no and he had accepted that - then she was both capable of saying no, and it suggests he would have listened.</p>
<p>if anyone voluntarily goes to bed undressed with someone else, it is reasonable to expect someone may try it on - especially given previous advances.</p>
<p>if he tried again and wasn't told no. life is full of relationships that have started with one party saying no a few times at first, and then it changing to a yes. it's not like one 'no' covers future events.</p>
<p>etc.</p>
<p>far too many 'if's, and who knows what the truth is really. an awful situation.</p> -
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<p>Good to see an article explaining exactly what instructions were given to the jury</p>
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<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/392336/jury-deliberating-kuggeleijn-rape-case'>http://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/392336/jury-deliberating-kuggeleijn-rape-case</a></p>
<p></p><p></p><blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">The judge gave the jury four questions to consider. The first revolved around whether sex actually took place, followed by whether the complainant consented to it.
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<div>If they believed she wasn't consenting, the jury had to consider whether the Crown has proven that Kuggeleijn didn't believe she was consenting.</div>
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<div>If they agreed with that, they had to decide if Kuggeleijn had reasonable grounds to believe that she was consenting.</div>
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<p>Connell suggested the jury considered Kuggeleijn's evidence first. If they accept what he says, they should find him not guilty. Or, if they were unsure, then they must also find him not guilty. But even if they disbelieved Kuggeleijn's evidence they would then need to assess the Crown's submissions in regards to the complainant saying "no".</p></blockquote> -
<p>Does anyone remember exactly what happened when Roger Randle got in trouble overseas ? from memory it all got thrown out but the mud still stuck and may have contributed to him having a much briefer AB career than I personally think he deserved.</p>
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<p>I remember hearing he may have been the fall guy for more famous teammates ? Obviously if this thread is naming names and potentially a bit of a prickly subject mods can feel free to delete it but if not I'd love to know more about what happened.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="602269" data-time="1470097659">
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<p>Does anyone remember exactly what happened when Roger Randle got in trouble overseas ? from memory it all got thrown out but the mud still stuck and may have contributed to him having a much briefer AB career than I personally think he deserved.</p>
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<p>I remember hearing he may have been the fall guy for more famous teammates ? Obviously if this thread is naming names and potentially a bit of a prickly subject mods can feel free to delete it but if not I'd love to know more about what happened.</p>
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<p>IIRC there were several players in the room, there may have been some sharing going on but Randle took the fall (and probably wasn't actually involved in the acts)</p> -
<p>I'd not be willing to take the fall for something like that if it wasn't me, even if it were to jeopardise my career in NZ.</p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="602277" data-time="1470099964"><p>
I'd not be willing to take the fall for something like that if it wasn't me, even if it were to jeopardise my career in NZ.</p></blockquote>Absolutely. I don't remember him being quite as good again but my memory might be wrong -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Duluth" data-cid="602266" data-time="1470097355"><p>
Good to see an article explaining exactly what instructions were given to the jury<br><br><a class="bbc_url" href="http://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/392336/jury-deliberating-kuggeleijn-rape-case">http://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/392336/jury-deliberating-kuggeleijn-rape-case</a></p></blockquote>You'd have to think that's geared towards his side of the story then. But when you consider those text messages in conjunction with it all. Messy one. I'm glad I've never served on a jury. I imagine it'd be incredibly frustrating. <br><br>
I ran a trial a few years back that had a quite famous cricketer on the jury who struggled to keep his eyes open the whole time, (along with about three other members of The jury who weren't able to get out of jury service). The defendant was found not guilty of a quite bad assault that I thought was cut and dry. Bumped into a juror a few months later who couldn't apologise enough and said that a couple of dominant personalities has overrun everyone else and that he regretted the verdict they gave . -
<p>I got selected for the first Jury Service I was called to (I was 19) thing was it was a dude my age so I was supposed to empathise with him or something I guess for his GBH on an old fella walking home form town one night.</p>
