Scott Kuggeleijn sex trial
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<p>Good to see an article explaining exactly what instructions were given to the jury</p>
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<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/392336/jury-deliberating-kuggeleijn-rape-case'>http://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/392336/jury-deliberating-kuggeleijn-rape-case</a></p>
<p></p><p></p><blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">The judge gave the jury four questions to consider. The first revolved around whether sex actually took place, followed by whether the complainant consented to it.
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<div>If they believed she wasn't consenting, the jury had to consider whether the Crown has proven that Kuggeleijn didn't believe she was consenting.</div>
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<div>If they agreed with that, they had to decide if Kuggeleijn had reasonable grounds to believe that she was consenting.</div>
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<p>Connell suggested the jury considered Kuggeleijn's evidence first. If they accept what he says, they should find him not guilty. Or, if they were unsure, then they must also find him not guilty. But even if they disbelieved Kuggeleijn's evidence they would then need to assess the Crown's submissions in regards to the complainant saying "no".</p></blockquote> -
<p>Does anyone remember exactly what happened when Roger Randle got in trouble overseas ? from memory it all got thrown out but the mud still stuck and may have contributed to him having a much briefer AB career than I personally think he deserved.</p>
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<p>I remember hearing he may have been the fall guy for more famous teammates ? Obviously if this thread is naming names and potentially a bit of a prickly subject mods can feel free to delete it but if not I'd love to know more about what happened.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="602269" data-time="1470097659">
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<p>Does anyone remember exactly what happened when Roger Randle got in trouble overseas ? from memory it all got thrown out but the mud still stuck and may have contributed to him having a much briefer AB career than I personally think he deserved.</p>
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<p>I remember hearing he may have been the fall guy for more famous teammates ? Obviously if this thread is naming names and potentially a bit of a prickly subject mods can feel free to delete it but if not I'd love to know more about what happened.</p>
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<p>IIRC there were several players in the room, there may have been some sharing going on but Randle took the fall (and probably wasn't actually involved in the acts)</p> -
<p>I'd not be willing to take the fall for something like that if it wasn't me, even if it were to jeopardise my career in NZ.</p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="602277" data-time="1470099964"><p>
I'd not be willing to take the fall for something like that if it wasn't me, even if it were to jeopardise my career in NZ.</p></blockquote>Absolutely. I don't remember him being quite as good again but my memory might be wrong -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Duluth" data-cid="602266" data-time="1470097355"><p>
Good to see an article explaining exactly what instructions were given to the jury<br><br><a class="bbc_url" href="http://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/392336/jury-deliberating-kuggeleijn-rape-case">http://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/392336/jury-deliberating-kuggeleijn-rape-case</a></p></blockquote>You'd have to think that's geared towards his side of the story then. But when you consider those text messages in conjunction with it all. Messy one. I'm glad I've never served on a jury. I imagine it'd be incredibly frustrating. <br><br>
I ran a trial a few years back that had a quite famous cricketer on the jury who struggled to keep his eyes open the whole time, (along with about three other members of The jury who weren't able to get out of jury service). The defendant was found not guilty of a quite bad assault that I thought was cut and dry. Bumped into a juror a few months later who couldn't apologise enough and said that a couple of dominant personalities has overrun everyone else and that he regretted the verdict they gave . -
<p>I got selected for the first Jury Service I was called to (I was 19) thing was it was a dude my age so I was supposed to empathise with him or something I guess for his GBH on an old fella walking home form town one night.</p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="canefan" data-cid="602282" data-time="1470100303">
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<p>Absolutely. I don't remember him being quite as good again but my memory might be wrong</p>
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<p>Well yeah tough to get in ahead of Jonah, Goldie and Tana I guess but he was still extremely good.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Bones" data-cid="602360" data-time="1470112899">
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<p>Fuck me MN5, there is no thread you can't turn to 90s.</p>
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<p>If you think this is bad don't read anything by me about music and movies in the off topic section.</p> -
I thought Randle was completely exonerated and the whole thing was shown to be a sham.<br><br>
The worst one that slipped through the net was SA fast bowler Ntini. The judge convicted him and mentioned his version of events to be ridiculous. He was convicted and sentenced then 9 months later it disappeared and he became the black face of SA cricket.<br><br>
A simple ntini rape search on Google explains it all -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="602433" data-time="1470122603">
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<p>I thought Randle was completely exonerated and the whole thing was shown to be a sham.<br><br>
The worst one that slipped through the net was SA fast bowler Ntini. The judge convicted him and mentioned his version of events to be ridiculous. He was convicted and sentenced then 9 months later it disappeared and he became the black face of SA cricket.<br><br>
A simple ntini rape search on Google explains it all</p>
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<p>mud sticks and all...and I guess that is the issue isnt it, you get accused, named and shamed, then turns out you were innocent (or the complaint withdrawn - some would sy conveniently) doesnt stop the whispers, more so in todays digital age</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="602433" data-time="1470122603">
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<p>I thought Randle was completely exonerated and the whole thing was shown to be a sham.<br><br>
The worst one that slipped through the net was SA fast bowler Ntini. The judge convicted him and mentioned his version of events to be ridiculous. He was convicted and sentenced then 9 months later it disappeared and he became the black face of SA cricket.<br><br>
A simple ntini rape search on Google explains it all</p>
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<p>I remember watching a BCs/Proteas ODI with a South African mate of mine years ago over a braai and few beers. We batted and Pollock got the first wicket and he was ecstatic but when Ntini got one he cursed him for being a "fucken kaffir rapist".....</p> -
Jury has been out a while. Must be a close run thing. Wonder if it'll end up hung, and if it did, would the Crown ask for a retrial?
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="602454" data-time="1470124892"><p>
I remember watching a BCs/Proteas ODI with a South African mate of mine years ago over a braai and few beers. We batted and Pollock got the first wicket and he was ecstatic but when Ntini got one he cursed him for being a "fucken kaffir rapist".....</p></blockquote>
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Top bloke. -
They must have been fairly well split. Normally if they're close (9-3, 10-2 etc) the judge will direct that they carry on, and then explore the possibility of a majority verdict.
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="aucklandwarlord" data-cid="602715" data-time="1470193467">
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<p>They must have been fairly well split. Normally if they're close (9-3, 10-2 etc) the judge will direct that they carry on, and then explore the possibility of a majority verdict.</p>
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<p>At what does the judge accept that the jury is hung. If he continues sending them back to deliberate or even consider a majority verdict at some point the dissenting side of the jury will capitulate just to get things over with - which is hardly an ideal verdict from the jury.</p>
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<p>I find it unlikely than a jury of 8 men and 4 women will swiftly find him guilty based on what we've seen. But I wouldn't be surprised if a majority find him guilty. The situation sounds too messy to be a quick, unanimous guilty verdict. If 8 random posters on here were the 8 men on the jury, it doesn't seem like a guilty verdict would be reached? At least in the first day of deliberation.</p>
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<p>Is a bench trial an option in NZ if there is a retrial?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="602717" data-time="1470195505"><p>
At what does the judge accept that the jury is hung. If he continues sending them back to deliberate or even consider a majority verdict at some point the dissenting side of the jury will capitulate just to get things over with - which is hardly an ideal verdict from the jury.<br><br>
I find it unlikely than a jury of 8 men and 4 women will swiftly find him guilty based on what we've seen. But I wouldn't be surprised if a majority find him guilty. The situation sounds too messy to be a quick, unanimous guilty verdict. If 8 random posters on here were the 8 men on the jury, it doesn't seem like a guilty verdict would be reached? At least in the first day of deliberation.<br><br>
Is a bench trial an option in NZ if there is a retrial?</p></blockquote>
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I think it's a "how long is a piece of string" type thing. If they had 9 in favour of one verdict and a couple on the fence with one steadfastly the other way, they'd probably be told to keep trying. But if they had 6 apiece and no one was looking like budging, the judge may just rule hung jury. <br><br>
In any case, not a good result for either party. The complainant will in all likelihood have to be cross examined again at a subsequent trial, and Kuggeleijn (sp?) Has to have it hanging over his head for probably another 6 months. I guess still a better result for him then a guilty verdict and a one way trip to the big house...
