RWC QF: All Blacks v Ireland
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@Machpants so they had us as faves for the test we won in SA last year?
Kinda proves my point about the TAB and thier odds setting?
@taniwharugby said in RWC QF: All Blacks v Ireland:
@Machpants so they had us as faves for the test we won in SA last year?
Kinda proves my point about the TAB and thier odds setting?
TAB must think we have our Aura back
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Seeing a lot of comments that suggest NZ are underrated, aren't as bad as everyone is making out etc... I'd love to see some of the reasoning behind that?
The All Blacks are a slightly better team than when they last played Ireland, thanks primarily to the additions of Tyrel Lomax and Jordie Barrett, but they've still flattered to deceive in the past two years.
Since losing that Ireland series, the All Blacks have played 19 games.
Of those 19 games, the only tough opposition they've faced has been South Africa (four times) and France (once). They won two of those matches against the Boks, one game in Auckland and one game at Ellis Park. They lost the other two, in Mbombela and on neutral turf at Twickenham. They lost to France.
The rest of the games they played were against bang average sides. They almost lost to a poor Japan side, who are a shadow of the team that did so well at the 2019 World Cup, and probably would have lost to Scotland if the weight of history hadn't been such a massive chip on the Scots' shoulders.
They drew with England despite having a massive lead and also suffered a historic loss against Argentina in NZ. Argentina are only going through to the quarter-finals of the WC thanks to being in the easiest group and would not have progressed had they been placed in Pools A or B. Throw in the wins against arguably the worst Wallabies and Wales teams of all time, and there's not a whole lot to crow about.
This team is very average and at the moment it feels like people are saying the All Blacks are underrated purely based on irrelevant history. I'd love to know what some posters here think is being overlooked?
@Mr-Fish said in RWC QF: All Blacks v Ireland:
Seeing a lot of comments that suggest NZ are underrated, aren't as bad as everyone is making out etc... I'd love to see some of the reasoning behind that?
The All Blacks are a slightly better team than when they last played Ireland, thanks primarily to the additions of Tyrel Lomax and Jordie Barrett, but they've still flattered to deceive in the past two years.
Since losing that Ireland series, the All Blacks have played 19 games.
Of those 19 games, the only tough opposition they've faced has been South Africa (four times) and France (once). They won two of those matches against the Boks, one game in Auckland and one game at Ellis Park. They lost the other two, in Mbombela and on neutral turf at Twickenham. They lost to France.
The rest of the games they played were against bang average sides. They almost lost to a poor Japan side, who are a shadow of the team that did so well at the 2019 World Cup, and probably would have lost to Scotland if the weight of history hadn't been such a massive chip on the Scots' shoulders.
They drew with England despite having a massive lead and also suffered a historic loss against Argentina in NZ. Argentina are only going through to the quarter-finals of the WC thanks to being in the easiest group and would not have progressed had they been placed in Pools A or B. Throw in the wins against arguably the worst Wallabies and Wales teams of all time, and there's not a whole lot to crow about.
This team is very average and at the moment it feels like people are saying the All Blacks are underrated purely based on irrelevant history. I'd love to know what some posters here think is being overlooked?
Yeah I agree with most of this. There's some fundamental issues with the team
The cleanout work of the tight five has been poor for a long time and quick ball is essential for how we try to play. Sometimes we'll have a game where it improves then it'll be followed by another couple of games of crap. I think it's a player quality issue. S Barrett is the only guy that performs every week.
Our game management is abysmal. Blame SR, it doesn't produce a skillset for tight Test matches where pragmatic opposition keeps the errors low.
We seem to have committed to a game plan with a lot of contestable kicks. Which is fine.. but our kick chase is not very good, it seems to have gone backwards this year
I think the team is rated about right
However we still have players that can do freakish stuff - Jordan, Telea, Ioane, Savea. The fluffy stuff not the arm wrestle
Look at the good performances in the last few years, it's usually based around a ten minute blitz where the game is won. Almost always in the first half and often towards the beginning
Take the first Irish Test last year. Reece scores against the run of play and we get with 21 points in 8mins. Game over. Final score 42-19
tldr - the team is a bit shit, the team doesn't play for 80mins, the team is unlikely to win an attritional slog but we still have the ability to pile on points very quickly
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i think our cleanout issues are a direct result of two things
Our set up, and
our inability to win first contactWe set up flat, don't hit on to the ball, and more often than not the play is a tip on to another forward who is also flat. It means our cleaners aren't arriving to any sort of advantage, which means technique has to be perfect, it doesn't take much being wrong to miss that assignment.
And that flat set up means our guys don't win first contact. Of all guys, Frizzell is the key to getting us on the front foot. He hits the ball at pace at a slight unders angle. A Savea's angle on the breakout against Uruguay was also perfect.What we don't want is too much Savea "yards after contact" which look great, but usually just result in slow messy ball.
If we are wedded to flat flat flat then everyone better not miss their assignments. -
i think our cleanout issues are a direct result of two things
Our set up, and
our inability to win first contactWe set up flat, don't hit on to the ball, and more often than not the play is a tip on to another forward who is also flat. It means our cleaners aren't arriving to any sort of advantage, which means technique has to be perfect, it doesn't take much being wrong to miss that assignment.
And that flat set up means our guys don't win first contact. Of all guys, Frizzell is the key to getting us on the front foot. He hits the ball at pace at a slight unders angle. A Savea's angle on the breakout against Uruguay was also perfect.What we don't want is too much Savea "yards after contact" which look great, but usually just result in slow messy ball.
If we are wedded to flat flat flat then everyone better not miss their assignments.@mariner4life said in RWC QF: All Blacks v Ireland:
What we don't want is too much Savea "yards after contact" which look great, but usually just result in slow messy ball.
Telea's carries resulted in a couple of turnovers v France. The forwards expected the target to be 3-4m further back
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@MiketheSnow said in RWC QF: All Blacks v Ireland:
@MN5 said in RWC QF: All Blacks v Ireland:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in RWC QF: All Blacks v Ireland:
@canefan said in RWC QF: All Blacks v Ireland:
@DaGrubster said in RWC QF: All Blacks v Ireland:
Ok, not desperate then. Highly motivated to prove that they are a better side after being written off all week.
If they can't get up for this one... How many times have we said this about the Fozz blacks only to see them falter? I dare them to prove us wrong
Would be Foster era in a nutshell if we spank Ireland then lose to Wales.
If the ABs get past Ireland ( massive IF there ) I really don’t see Wales or Argentina putting up enough fight to stop them getting into the final.
Your mob were saying the same about England last go round
Which mob? Pretty sure we all saw that as 50/50 at best.
@booboo said in RWC QF: All Blacks v Ireland:
@MiketheSnow said in RWC QF: All Blacks v Ireland:
@MN5 said in RWC QF: All Blacks v Ireland:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in RWC QF: All Blacks v Ireland:
@canefan said in RWC QF: All Blacks v Ireland:
@DaGrubster said in RWC QF: All Blacks v Ireland:
Ok, not desperate then. Highly motivated to prove that they are a better side after being written off all week.
If they can't get up for this one... How many times have we said this about the Fozz blacks only to see them falter? I dare them to prove us wrong
Would be Foster era in a nutshell if we spank Ireland then lose to Wales.
If the ABs get past Ireland ( massive IF there ) I really don’t see Wales or Argentina putting up enough fight to stop them getting into the final.
Your mob were saying the same about England last go round
Which mob? Pretty sure we all saw that as 50/50 at best.
I think it was far more than 50/50 with most feeling pretty confident after the big win against Ireland and the fact that England weren’t playing that great at all.
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i think our cleanout issues are a direct result of two things
Our set up, and
our inability to win first contactWe set up flat, don't hit on to the ball, and more often than not the play is a tip on to another forward who is also flat. It means our cleaners aren't arriving to any sort of advantage, which means technique has to be perfect, it doesn't take much being wrong to miss that assignment.
And that flat set up means our guys don't win first contact. Of all guys, Frizzell is the key to getting us on the front foot. He hits the ball at pace at a slight unders angle. A Savea's angle on the breakout against Uruguay was also perfect.What we don't want is too much Savea "yards after contact" which look great, but usually just result in slow messy ball.
If we are wedded to flat flat flat then everyone better not miss their assignments.@mariner4life said in RWC QF: All Blacks v Ireland:
i think our cleanout issues are a direct result of two things
Our set up, and
our inability to win first contactWe set up flat, don't hit on to the ball, and more often than not the play is a tip on to another forward who is also flat. It means our cleaners aren't arriving to any sort of advantage, which means technique has to be perfect, it doesn't take much being wrong to miss that assignment.
And that flat set up means our guys don't win first contact. Of all guys, Frizzell is the key to getting us on the front foot. He hits the ball at pace at a slight unders angle. A Savea's angle on the breakout against Uruguay was also perfect.What we don't want is too much Savea "yards after contact" which look great, but usually just result in slow messy ball.
If we are wedded to flat flat flat then everyone better not miss their assignments.....i 100% agree
we dont for a second try and just hit it up to try and draw more defenders disrupt they're formation...every play is with breaking the line in mind
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i think our cleanout issues are a direct result of two things
Our set up, and
our inability to win first contactWe set up flat, don't hit on to the ball, and more often than not the play is a tip on to another forward who is also flat. It means our cleaners aren't arriving to any sort of advantage, which means technique has to be perfect, it doesn't take much being wrong to miss that assignment.
And that flat set up means our guys don't win first contact. Of all guys, Frizzell is the key to getting us on the front foot. He hits the ball at pace at a slight unders angle. A Savea's angle on the breakout against Uruguay was also perfect.What we don't want is too much Savea "yards after contact" which look great, but usually just result in slow messy ball.
If we are wedded to flat flat flat then everyone better not miss their assignments.@mariner4life said in RWC QF: All Blacks v Ireland:
What we don't want is too much Savea "yards after contact" which look great, but usually just result in slow messy ball.
If we are wedded to flat flat flat then everyone better not miss their assignments.It’s high risk stuff but once we get a slight gap we can more easily exploit it. We need bodies in motion after the initial break.
It’s when the gaps aren’t there that we have lacked a little patience and if guys like Mo’unga and Beaudie are getting stagnant ball when they are flat, we look terrible.
Surprisingly that test against the Boks last year when Mo’unga played deeper out attacking line aligned accordingly and we looked a damn sight better.
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@mariner4life said in RWC QF: All Blacks v Ireland:
What we don't want is too much Savea "yards after contact" which look great, but usually just result in slow messy ball.
Telea's carries resulted in a couple of turnovers v France. The forwards expected the target to be 3-4m further back
@Duluth said in RWC QF: All Blacks v Ireland:
@mariner4life said in RWC QF: All Blacks v Ireland:
What we don't want is too much Savea "yards after contact" which look great, but usually just result in slow messy ball.
Telea's carries resulted in a couple of turnovers v France. The forwards expected the target to be 3-4m further back
the danger against Ireland is they are really fucking good at this specific scenario. They'll go the "choke tackle" route, and if the tackled player gets a knee to the ground and the ref calls release, everyone knows what to do. At least one guy will sort of stand and loiter on our side, meaning cleaners have to go through them. One guy will hold on a bit longer to provide the target, but it's the rear most player who releases and then immediately plays at the ball.
You've got to smash that first guy, and that runs an enormous risk of upsetting the refs. Then you'll probably hit the 2nd guy, but he's not the threat, the 3rd guy is, and you are probably already too late. -
@Duluth said in RWC QF: All Blacks v Ireland:
@mariner4life said in RWC QF: All Blacks v Ireland:
What we don't want is too much Savea "yards after contact" which look great, but usually just result in slow messy ball.
Telea's carries resulted in a couple of turnovers v France. The forwards expected the target to be 3-4m further back
the danger against Ireland is they are really fucking good at this specific scenario. They'll go the "choke tackle" route, and if the tackled player gets a knee to the ground and the ref calls release, everyone knows what to do. At least one guy will sort of stand and loiter on our side, meaning cleaners have to go through them. One guy will hold on a bit longer to provide the target, but it's the rear most player who releases and then immediately plays at the ball.
You've got to smash that first guy, and that runs an enormous risk of upsetting the refs. Then you'll probably hit the 2nd guy, but he's not the threat, the 3rd guy is, and you are probably already too late.@mariner4life and refs let people do this! It's so annoying seeing tacklers in front of cleaners, and refs blowing turnover penalties. Not just on us - but we should do this too.
I'm hopeful we're seeing BB in particular nursing himself to this RWC like Carter did in 2015; little physicality for a year or two leading up to it, and then hitting vintage Carter at the tourney.
Hopefully the comments about S+C were spot on too, and we went into the SA game physically damaged. We know how to peak at the right time, just in '07 we were physically dominant in the NPC
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@mariner4life and refs let people do this! It's so annoying seeing tacklers in front of cleaners, and refs blowing turnover penalties. Not just on us - but we should do this too.
I'm hopeful we're seeing BB in particular nursing himself to this RWC like Carter did in 2015; little physicality for a year or two leading up to it, and then hitting vintage Carter at the tourney.
Hopefully the comments about S+C were spot on too, and we went into the SA game physically damaged. We know how to peak at the right time, just in '07 we were physically dominant in the NPC
@nzzp said in RWC QF: All Blacks v Ireland:
and refs let people do this! It's so annoying seeing tacklers in front of cleaners, and refs blowing turnover penalties.
like a lot of things Ireland (and all good teams, but this week it's about Ireland) do, it's right on the edge of legal. But right on the edge is legal if the ref isn't calling it, so do something about it. FFS Sam have a whinge once in a while.
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@Duluth said in RWC QF: All Blacks v Ireland:
@mariner4life said in RWC QF: All Blacks v Ireland:
What we don't want is too much Savea "yards after contact" which look great, but usually just result in slow messy ball.
Telea's carries resulted in a couple of turnovers v France. The forwards expected the target to be 3-4m further back
the danger against Ireland is they are really fucking good at this specific scenario. They'll go the "choke tackle" route, and if the tackled player gets a knee to the ground and the ref calls release, everyone knows what to do. At least one guy will sort of stand and loiter on our side, meaning cleaners have to go through them. One guy will hold on a bit longer to provide the target, but it's the rear most player who releases and then immediately plays at the ball.
You've got to smash that first guy, and that runs an enormous risk of upsetting the refs. Then you'll probably hit the 2nd guy, but he's not the threat, the 3rd guy is, and you are probably already too late.@mariner4life and the numbers they throw around those contact situations at the guys on the fringes of the carrier to impede them just enough that the following Irish defender gets to latch on 1st
Just smart and disciplined.
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@nzzp said in RWC QF: All Blacks v Ireland:
and refs let people do this! It's so annoying seeing tacklers in front of cleaners, and refs blowing turnover penalties.
like a lot of things Ireland (and all good teams, but this week it's about Ireland) do, it's right on the edge of legal. But right on the edge is legal if the ref isn't calling it, so do something about it. FFS Sam have a whinge once in a while.
@mariner4life said in RWC QF: All Blacks v Ireland:
@nzzp said in RWC QF: All Blacks v Ireland:
and refs let people do this! It's so annoying seeing tacklers in front of cleaners, and refs blowing turnover penalties.
like a lot of things Ireland (and all good teams, but this week it's about Ireland) do, it's right on the edge of legal. But right on the edge is legal if the ref isn't calling it, so do something about it. FFS Sam have a whinge once in a while.
If we are smart enough this game should be won with 3s. Quick pick n go’s to take advantage of offiside loiterers and knock those penalty kicks over every time.
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@mariner4life and the numbers they throw around those contact situations at the guys on the fringes of the carrier to impede them just enough that the following Irish defender gets to latch on 1st
Just smart and disciplined.
@taniwharugby said in RWC QF: All Blacks v Ireland:
@mariner4life and the numbers they throw around those contact situations at the guys on the fringes of the carrier to impede them just enough that the following Irish defender gets to latch on 1st
yeah, they're disruptive as shit, it's excellent work. Richie was the fucking master at that, do something without looking like you are doing anything.
Our particular arrogance in NZ at the moment seems to be that we plan for how we think rugby should be played, not how it is played.
And yet, somehow, still give up lots of penalties.And yet for all that i can still a clear path to us winning this weekend. And it won't take much improvement for it to happen.
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@taniwharugby said in RWC QF: All Blacks v Ireland:
@mariner4life and the numbers they throw around those contact situations at the guys on the fringes of the carrier to impede them just enough that the following Irish defender gets to latch on 1st
yeah, they're disruptive as shit, it's excellent work. Richie was the fucking master at that, do something without looking like you are doing anything.
Our particular arrogance in NZ at the moment seems to be that we plan for how we think rugby should be played, not how it is played.
And yet, somehow, still give up lots of penalties.And yet for all that i can still a clear path to us winning this weekend. And it won't take much improvement for it to happen.
@mariner4life said in RWC QF: All Blacks v Ireland:
@taniwharugby said in RWC QF: All Blacks v Ireland:
@mariner4life and the numbers they throw around those contact situations at the guys on the fringes of the carrier to impede them just enough that the following Irish defender gets to latch on 1st
yeah, they're disruptive as shit, it's excellent work. Richie was the fucking master at that, do something without looking like you are doing anything.
Our particular arrogance in NZ at the moment seems to be that we plan for how we think rugby should be played, not how it is played.
And yet, somehow, still give up lots of penalties.And yet for all that i can still a clear path to us winning this weekend. And it won't take much improvement for it to happen.
Thats the most frustrating part. Time to put
a complete performance together -
If we can:
Not play too much inside our own 40
Chase and contest our kicks every single time
Don't go past the ball on defenseWe'll go a long way towards winning this game.
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If we can:
Not play too much inside our own 40
Chase and contest our kicks every single time
Don't go past the ball on defenseWe'll go a long way towards winning this game.
@mariner4life yep, and I think that is the most frustrating part of the past 4 years, and last 15 or so months in particular, the adjustments needed to contest with the likes of France, SA & Ireland are small, but we seem reluctant or incapable of making them.
Your post earlier is in line with my thinking in that I think alot of these issues it seems like a reluctance to play this way as this isnt how we want the game played...
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@mariner4life yep, and I think that is the most frustrating part of the past 4 years, and last 15 or so months in particular, the adjustments needed to contest with the likes of France, SA & Ireland are small, but we seem reluctant or incapable of making them.
Your post earlier is in line with my thinking in that I think alot of these issues it seems like a reluctance to play this way as this isnt how we want the game played...
@taniwharugby said in RWC QF: All Blacks v Ireland:
@mariner4life yep, and I think that is the most frustrating part of the past 4 years, and last 15 or so months in particular, the adjustments needed to contest with the likes of France, SA & Ireland are small, but we seem reluctant or incapable of making them.
Your post earlier is in line with my thinking in that I think alot of these issues it seems like a reluctance to play this way as this isnt how we want the game played...
Pride comes before a fall. I don't think this team have heard that one. These ABs are one of the more stupid ABs teams I've seen. We either don't want to read the situation or we can't. We just need to play smarter and be pragmatic
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So which loosies would you play against Ireland given their skill intelligence and ferocity in the rucks?
@nostrildamus I'd go with Frizell 6, Cane 7, Savea 8.
Have Blackadder to replace like for like on Cane, Frizell and add too the trio If Savea needed to come off. -
lol Blackadder based on what? 25 pretty average minutes in 2 years?
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@taniwharugby said in RWC QF: All Blacks v Ireland:
This was circulating social media 12 years ago...
Who got us this time?
Wrong pic.
That's Piri Weepu and not Beaver.
Indeed, Weepu, did most certainly not, have this. He was taking and missing kicks in a game we won 8 - 7 with an injured hammy (or other leg injury) that he either a) didn’t tell anyone about or b) told the brains trust about and they continued with this plan.
Can you imagine if we lost that game, the recriminations echoing down the ages about this ‘game management’.
God bless Stephen Donald.
