RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks
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@kiwiinmelb @taniwharugby given the game was intense, close and defensively driven, losing a key loose forward did take its toll. Yes they practice with 14 etc, but the reality is that it’s one less body to take a hit or make a hit. Other players make adjustments but when it’s a player that has been in form and doing so much for us particularly on the defensive side of the ball, some of our boys were clearly showing signs late in the game.
In a more open game where more players are involved in the play more often then there are more moments to catch a breath.
This is not a discussion about fitness but just the realities of going long periods without a player that is needed for the circumstances of this match.
@ACT-Crusader said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
some of our boys were clearly showing signs late in the game.
Agreed, I recall a few looking like the Irish at about phase 30 the other week, just devoid of both energy and power to do much.
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That was the WC final, the absolute pinnacle of our sport, with the two form teams of the comp going hammer and tong playing completely different styles. It was all set up for an absolute classic.
And what did we get? Constant stoppages for the TMO to pour over footage of a super dynamic sport, not looking for genuine foul play, but for minor indiscretions and errors of judgement by players absolutely throwing themselves around for 80 minutes.
And the result was a stop start game that included so many cards, including a red that basically sealed the fate of the game for one side, that it is impossible to tell what would have even happened if both sides were allowed to keep 15 men on the pitch.
That was a potentially incredible game of rugby between two supremely talented sides that was never allowed to get going. If that's the pinnacle, then rugby is badly broken as a sport.
@No-Quarter said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
That was the WC final, the absolute pinnacle of our sport, with the two form teams of the comp going hammer and tong playing completely different styles. It was all set up for an absolute classic.
And what did we get? Constant stoppages for the TMO to pour over footage of a super dynamic sport, not looking for genuine foul play, but for minor indiscretions and errors of judgement by players absolutely throwing themselves around for 80 minutes.
And the result was a stop start game that included so many cards, including a red that basically sealed the fate of the game for one side, that it is impossible to tell what would have even happened if both sides were allowed to keep 15 men on the pitch.
That was a potentially incredible game of rugby between two supremely talented sides that was never allowed to get going. If that's the pinnacle, then rugby is badly broken as a sport.
I made the comment to some friends with similar sentiments about how good it could have been without the stop-start TMO bullshit. In 2011 or 2015. In better times.....
My view is that I would much rather live with the odd ref fůck up on the field (that's sport and has always been part of it) rather than the arbitrary TMO bullshit.
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@taniwharugby said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@kiwiinmelb unfortunately we have had far too much practice playing a man down
2011 RWC final is the last one I can remember where we kept everyone on the paddock in the critical game. But - preparing the list below, also the 2019 semi (we just got beaten)
2015 Final - Ben Smith YC
2017 Lions 3 - JK got a yellos
2019 English semi - surprisingly looks like we kept everyone there
2023 Final - RC YC (and 4 cards in the game FFS)Are we the most carded tier 1 side? I think we probably are
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Yup get rid of the TMO, ref is sole source of truth, with a knock back of back chat. Citing officers go over after and punish slow time
@Machpants said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
Yup get rid of the TMO, ref is sole source of truth, with a knock back of back chat. Citing officers go over after and punish slow time
Go back and tell that to this forum after the missed Wayne Barnes forward pass in 2007. Can you imagine the meltdown on here if that happened today and was allowed to STAND?
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@Machpants said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
Yup get rid of the TMO, ref is sole source of truth, with a knock back of back chat. Citing officers go over after and punish slow time
Go back and tell that to this forum after the missed Wayne Barnes forward pass in 2007. Can you imagine the meltdown on here if that happened today and was allowed to STAND?
@barbarian said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Machpants said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
Yup get rid of the TMO, ref is sole source of truth, with a knock back of back chat. Citing officers go over after and punish slow time
Go back and tell that to this forum after the missed Wayne Barnes forward pass in 2007. Can you imagine the meltdown on here if that happened today and was allowed to STAND?
I will say what I said in 07 barb, he missed what his linesman missed and big deal, noone seems to be having a huge meltdown over the Ardie penalty that wasn't yesterday. I honestly think some will moan, same with players, some people will remember a players mistake forever etc. I can and do live with mistakes by refs, and some just won't.
But if you want comparisons I watch NPC avidly, am a memeber and go to Taranaki home games, hardly see the refs go to TMO, and I have seen what I imagine refs missing things at time, and like most in crowd find it can be fixed by a shrug of the shoulders. -
@Machpants said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
Yup get rid of the TMO, ref is sole source of truth, with a knock back of back chat. Citing officers go over after and punish slow time
Go back and tell that to this forum after the missed Wayne Barnes forward pass in 2007. Can you imagine the meltdown on here if that happened today and was allowed to STAND?
@barbarian said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Machpants said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
Yup get rid of the TMO, ref is sole source of truth, with a knock back of back chat. Citing officers go over after and punish slow time
Go back and tell that to this forum after the missed Wayne Barnes forward pass in 2007. Can you imagine the meltdown on here if that happened today and was allowed to STAND?
The biggest problem in that game was the absolute stupidity of appointing an inexperienced ref who was woefully out of his depth. That's a completely different situation to the TMO playing God.
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That was the WC final, the absolute pinnacle of our sport, with the two form teams of the comp going hammer and tong playing completely different styles. It was all set up for an absolute classic.
And what did we get? Constant stoppages for the TMO to pour over footage of a super dynamic sport, not looking for genuine foul play, but for minor indiscretions and errors of judgement by players absolutely throwing themselves around for 80 minutes.
And the result was a stop start game that included so many cards, including a red that basically sealed the fate of the game for one side, that it is impossible to tell what would have even happened if both sides were allowed to keep 15 men on the pitch.
That was a potentially incredible game of rugby between two supremely talented sides that was never allowed to get going. If that's the pinnacle, then rugby is badly broken as a sport.
@No-Quarter said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
That was the WC final, the absolute pinnacle of our sport, with the two form teams of the comp going hammer and tong playing completely different styles. It was all set up for an absolute classic.
And what did we get? Constant stoppages for the TMO to pour over footage of a super dynamic sport, not looking for genuine foul play, but for minor indiscretions and errors of judgement by players absolutely throwing themselves around for 80 minutes.
And the result was a stop start game that included so many cards, including a red that basically sealed the fate of the game for one side, that it is impossible to tell what would have even happened if both sides were allowed to keep 15 men on the pitch.
That was a potentially incredible game of rugby between two supremely talented sides that was never allowed to get going. If that's the pinnacle, then rugby is badly broken as a sport.
This. Sadly after being in love with the game my entire life I am dropping her. Been disillusioned for a while but as mentioned the RWC final should showcase the game. Sadly it showed exactly what rugby has become. The only redeeming feature was that it was a "close" contest, unfortunately 15 v 14 isn't a "fair" contest.
The AB's are still my team, and well done to the Boks, but my entertainment hours will be spent where the fans are respected and the result is up to the players. Strangely enough I might still watch some 13 man rugby but they call it league (cards are a rarity there at least).
Au revoir ma cherie seems appropriate.
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@nzzp said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@bluedex said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
All lovely guys on here I see lol
12:53 am
Monday, 30 October 2023 (GMT)
Time in Dublin, County Dublin, IrelandFew drinks, get on an NZ board and get stuck in ... happy days.
Very friendly group alright
@bluedex said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@nzzp said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@bluedex said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
All lovely guys on here I see lol
12:53 am
Monday, 30 October 2023 (GMT)
Time in Dublin, County Dublin, IrelandFew drinks, get on an NZ board and get stuck in ... happy days.
Very friendly group alright
Bro, you reaped what you sowed.
If you want to be surrounded by psycophants join the swarm on Planet Rugby. You'll fit in perfectly with this base level of trolling.
Although I think even they have reached the conclusion that RI had walked on and turned back due to what your Johnny the ref abuser said.
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@bluedex said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@nzzp said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@bluedex said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
All lovely guys on here I see lol
12:53 am
Monday, 30 October 2023 (GMT)
Time in Dublin, County Dublin, IrelandFew drinks, get on an NZ board and get stuck in ... happy days.
Very friendly group alright
Bro, you reaped what you sowed.
If you want to be surrounded by psycophants join the swarm on Planet Rugby. You'll fit in perfectly with this base level of trolling.
Although I think even they have reached the conclusion that RI had walked on and turned back due to what your Johnny the ref abuser said.
@Nepia too right
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@No-Quarter said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
That was the WC final, the absolute pinnacle of our sport, with the two form teams of the comp going hammer and tong playing completely different styles. It was all set up for an absolute classic.
And what did we get? Constant stoppages for the TMO to pour over footage of a super dynamic sport, not looking for genuine foul play, but for minor indiscretions and errors of judgement by players absolutely throwing themselves around for 80 minutes.
And the result was a stop start game that included so many cards, including a red that basically sealed the fate of the game for one side, that it is impossible to tell what would have even happened if both sides were allowed to keep 15 men on the pitch.
That was a potentially incredible game of rugby between two supremely talented sides that was never allowed to get going. If that's the pinnacle, then rugby is badly broken as a sport.
This. Sadly after being in love with the game my entire life I am dropping her. Been disillusioned for a while but as mentioned the RWC final should showcase the game. Sadly it showed exactly what rugby has become. The only redeeming feature was that it was a "close" contest, unfortunately 15 v 14 isn't a "fair" contest.
The AB's are still my team, and well done to the Boks, but my entertainment hours will be spent where the fans are respected and the result is up to the players. Strangely enough I might still watch some 13 man rugby but they call it league (cards are a rarity there at least).
Au revoir ma cherie seems appropriate.
@Snowy said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@No-Quarter said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
That was the WC final, the absolute pinnacle of our sport, with the two form teams of the comp going hammer and tong playing completely different styles. It was all set up for an absolute classic.
And what did we get? Constant stoppages for the TMO to pour over footage of a super dynamic sport, not looking for genuine foul play, but for minor indiscretions and errors of judgement by players absolutely throwing themselves around for 80 minutes.
And the result was a stop start game that included so many cards, including a red that basically sealed the fate of the game for one side, that it is impossible to tell what would have even happened if both sides were allowed to keep 15 men on the pitch.
That was a potentially incredible game of rugby between two supremely talented sides that was never allowed to get going. If that's the pinnacle, then rugby is badly broken as a sport.
This. Sadly after being in love with the game my entire life I am dropping her. Been disillusioned for a while but as mentioned the RWC final should showcase the game. Sadly it showed exactly what rugby has become. The only redeeming feature was that it was a "close" contest, unfortunately 15 v 14 isn't a "fair" contest.
The AB's are still my team, and well done to the Boks, but my entertainment hours will be spent where the fans are respected and the result is up to the players. Strangely enough I might still watch some 13 man rugby but they call it league (cards are a rarity there at least).
Au revoir ma cherie seems appropriate.
feeling very similar myself, i think getting involved with a club and seeing rugby that is closer to what i grew up loving is the only thing keeping me engaged
looking forward to seeing what razor can do next year though
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The Bok's win 3 one point games in a row to win the RWC.
There's winning it the hard way, then there's winning it like the 2023 Springboks.
@Windows97 said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
There's winning it the hard way, then there'swinningitlike the 2023 Springboks.FIFY
Winning is winning...while we'd all love to play attractive running rugby and win, reality is this is rarely the result.
As many alluded to, the best rugby of this RWC was in some of the pool matches and then peaked in the 1/4 finals.
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Another thing - since when is the RWC final expected to be a showpiece of our game?
In my lifetime:
95 - Dour penalty fest
99 - Fairly dour penalty fest
03 - Great Lote Tuqiri try, then a dour penalty fest
07 - Dour penalty fest
11 - Dour penalty fest
15 - Actually great game, easily the best final and closer than scoreline suggested
19 - Not that dour but also not that close
23 - Pretty dour penalty festImportant to note that one man's 'dour penalty fest' is another man's grinding physical contest so take it all with a grain of salt if you must.
But if your expectation was the final would be a classic showpiece, well I think it's a bit on you if you are disappointed.
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@Windows97 said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
There's winning it the hard way, then there'swinningitlike the 2023 Springboks.FIFY
Winning is winning...while we'd all love to play attractive running rugby and win, reality is this is rarely the result.
As many alluded to, the best rugby of this RWC was in some of the pool matches and then peaked in the 1/4 finals.
@taniwharugby said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Windows97 said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
There's winning it the hard way, then there'swinningitlike the 2023 Springboks.FIFY
Winning is winning...while we'd all love to play attractive running rugby and win, reality is this is rarely the result.
As many alluded to, the best rugby of this RWC was in some of the pool matches and then peaked in the 1/4 finals.
I meant it more as a compliment to their starch and ability to not panic under pressure.
And aside from all the shoulda, coulda, woulda talk (which would be equal for all 3 games) SA found a way to win in all of them.
I admire them for it, albeit from a state of dejection.
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@No-Quarter said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
That was the WC final, the absolute pinnacle of our sport, with the two form teams of the comp going hammer and tong playing completely different styles. It was all set up for an absolute classic.
And what did we get? Constant stoppages for the TMO to pour over footage of a super dynamic sport, not looking for genuine foul play, but for minor indiscretions and errors of judgement by players absolutely throwing themselves around for 80 minutes.
And the result was a stop start game that included so many cards, including a red that basically sealed the fate of the game for one side, that it is impossible to tell what would have even happened if both sides were allowed to keep 15 men on the pitch.
That was a potentially incredible game of rugby between two supremely talented sides that was never allowed to get going. If that's the pinnacle, then rugby is badly broken as a sport.
I made the comment to some friends with similar sentiments about how good it could have been without the stop-start TMO bullshit. In 2011 or 2015. In better times.....
My view is that I would much rather live with the odd ref fůck up on the field (that's sport and has always been part of it) rather than the arbitrary TMO bullshit.
@Rancid-Schnitzel I am ok with reviewing scoring phases as the game has stopped and you get the decision right. I like that cause it gives the ref the get of jail card free. If they are clear on the number of phases. To balance that against penalties etc then giving captains one or 2 appeals per game would allow for evenness.
But having the TMO interfere with live rugby to go back for cards is the big problem. If we started with the mindset that they are referrals anyway and can be cited after the match then they just go away.
The NRL have done this to great success.
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Another thing - since when is the RWC final expected to be a showpiece of our game?
In my lifetime:
95 - Dour penalty fest
99 - Fairly dour penalty fest
03 - Great Lote Tuqiri try, then a dour penalty fest
07 - Dour penalty fest
11 - Dour penalty fest
15 - Actually great game, easily the best final and closer than scoreline suggested
19 - Not that dour but also not that close
23 - Pretty dour penalty festImportant to note that one man's 'dour penalty fest' is another man's grinding physical contest so take it all with a grain of salt if you must.
But if your expectation was the final would be a classic showpiece, well I think it's a bit on you if you are disappointed.
@barbarian why wouldnt it be expected to be the showpeice of the game, it is right now the pinnacle in rugby, therefore, in theory it will be shown to the widest audience possible, why wouldnt you want it to be a showpeice and not descend into a whistle-or-card fest?
So I think there is nothing wrong with wanting it to be a spectacle, but at the end of the day, winning is the goal, however you win, you win.
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@barbarian why wouldnt it be expected to be the showpeice of the game, it is right now the pinnacle in rugby, therefore, in theory it will be shown to the widest audience possible, why wouldnt you want it to be a showpeice and not descend into a whistle-or-card fest?
So I think there is nothing wrong with wanting it to be a spectacle, but at the end of the day, winning is the goal, however you win, you win.
@taniwharugby said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@barbarian why wouldnt it be expected to be the showpeice of the game, it is right now the pinnacle in rugby, therefore, in theory it will be shown to the widest audience possible, why wouldnt you want it to be a showpeice and not descend into a whistle-or-card fest?
So I think there is nothing wrong with wanting it to be a spectacle, but at the end of the day, winning is the goal, however you win, you win.
The problem is that so much of the rugby below it is dire as well. The RWC is just a reflection of that.
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@barbarian why wouldnt it be expected to be the showpeice of the game, it is right now the pinnacle in rugby, therefore, in theory it will be shown to the widest audience possible, why wouldnt you want it to be a showpeice and not descend into a whistle-or-card fest?
So I think there is nothing wrong with wanting it to be a spectacle, but at the end of the day, winning is the goal, however you win, you win.
@taniwharugby said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@barbarian why wouldnt it be expected to be the showpeice of the game, it is right now the pinnacle in rugby, therefore, in theory it will be shown to the widest audience possible, why wouldnt you want it to be a showpeice and not descend into a whistle-or-card fest?
So I think there is nothing wrong with wanting it to be a spectacle, but at the end of the day, winning is the goal, however you win, you win.
It's not just the officiating though. There's too much at stake and teams resort to defensive rugby. There's a reason that only rarely do teams pass 16 points.
And I reject the notion it was a whistle-fest. The last 30 minutes was gripping and Barnes barely blew his whistle at all. No scrum penalties, no 50/50 ruck penalties.
So in an ideal world I'd love it to be razzle dazzle rugby, but history tells us that it's almost never the case.
