RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks
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No use complaining about refereeing, you win some, you lose some, and it is easier to remember the whistles that went against you.
The TMO interventions are annoying, though, and getting problematic.
Going back to chalk off tries but not doing the same for penalties and drop goals doesn't make a lick of sense. Foul play interventions are fine in theory, but rugby has far, far too many (coincidental/accidental) collisions with heads, that it tarnishes the spectacle when the TMO is used this way.@Tordah said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
No use complaining about refereeing, you win some, you lose some, and it is easier to remember the whistles that went against you.
The TMO interventions are annoying, though, and getting problematic.
Going back to chalk off tries but not doing the same for penalties and drop goals doesn't make a lick of sense. Foul play interventions are fine in theory, but rugby has far, far too many (coincidental/accidental) collisions with heads, that it tarnishes the spectacle when the TMO is used this way.Some balance needs to be found definitely. I'm hoping that the current situation is a work in progress because currently it is tarnishing the spectacle.
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@pakman said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
If that game were played without a TMO, Blacks win easily. If TMO used to ensure correct decisions (e.g. Savea penalty), Blacks win game.
But in the mess which is the current top level officiating we get an anomalous result.
How many do there have to be before this gets sorted?
This is another Schrödinger's cat scenario
If Smith's try had stood do you honestly think that SA couldn't have gotten points back / changed their game plan to more attacking rugby if they had to 'chase' the game?
@MiketheSnow by attacking rugby, do you mean the garryowen and hope someone drops it?
Key to beating SA is to get your noses in front and force them to play. NZ never managed it, so the likes of PSDT, Kwagga and Fourie were able to destroy with majesty.
No point musing if Boks could have played attacking rugby or not. Fact is, they won without having to. Up to everyone else to evolve their games and show their game plan up.
NZ and England’s packs showed what happens when you blunt the Boks up front. The bomb squad did nothing against a NZ 7 + Jordie.
Boks managed to slow down NZ ball to an average 5 seconds. That’s an eternity for a team that plays like NZ. Not having your 7 at the breakdown to clear bodies and secure quick ball really hurt NZ.
Maybe Razor will force the ABs to improve their discipline. It wouldn’t hurt.
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I think the bruises will take a bit longer than a couple days and truthfully Cane never deserved red. Feel really bad for him. But thanks for the great final. Nobody had anything left. And the rest of us fans were spent emotionally. Grateful to all of the guys on both teams for the battle. PSDT a reported 28 tackles. And Fat Frans 🤪10 in first 40… An attritional battle all the way to last whistle. If you don’t like scrums and union then just go watch league
I am wheelchair-bound and an easy target.in the mayhem of a hotel bar screening .. And I can comfortably tell you that I have never been kissed by so many men after that final whistle
Looking forward to see you guys in Oz in the final for the next round 
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T Tordah referenced this topic on
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@MiketheSnow by attacking rugby, do you mean the garryowen and hope someone drops it?
Key to beating SA is to get your noses in front and force them to play. NZ never managed it, so the likes of PSDT, Kwagga and Fourie were able to destroy with majesty.
No point musing if Boks could have played attacking rugby or not. Fact is, they won without having to. Up to everyone else to evolve their games and show their game plan up.
NZ and England’s packs showed what happens when you blunt the Boks up front. The bomb squad did nothing against a NZ 7 + Jordie.
Boks managed to slow down NZ ball to an average 5 seconds. That’s an eternity for a team that plays like NZ. Not having your 7 at the breakdown to clear bodies and secure quick ball really hurt NZ.
Maybe Razor will force the ABs to improve their discipline. It wouldn’t hurt.
@stodders said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@MiketheSnow by attacking rugby, do you mean the garryowen and hope someone drops it?
Key to beating SA is to get your noses in front and force them to play. NZ never managed it, so the likes of PSDT, Kwagga and Fourie were able to destroy with majesty.
No point musing if Boks could have played attacking rugby or not. Fact is, they won without having to. Up to everyone else to evolve their games and show their game plan up.
NZ and England’s packs showed what happens when you blunt the Boks up front. The bomb squad did nothing against a NZ 7 + Jordie.
Boks managed to slow down NZ ball to an average 5 seconds. That’s an eternity for a team that plays like NZ. Not having your 7 at the breakdown to clear bodies and secure quick ball really hurt NZ.
Maybe Razor will force the ABs to improve their discipline. It wouldn’t hurt.
To paraphrase Foster, 'horses for courses'
SA played a game they thought would blunt the NZ attack
For the most part it worked
Rock beat scissors
But if you don't think SA can play another way I suggest you watch the URC and the European Cups
The SA teams can run them in as well as the NZ teams
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I think the bruises will take a bit longer than a couple days and truthfully Cane never deserved red. Feel really bad for him. But thanks for the great final. Nobody had anything left. And the rest of us fans were spent emotionally. Grateful to all of the guys on both teams for the battle. PSDT a reported 28 tackles. And Fat Frans 🤪10 in first 40… An attritional battle all the way to last whistle. If you don’t like scrums and union then just go watch league
I am wheelchair-bound and an easy target.in the mayhem of a hotel bar screening .. And I can comfortably tell you that I have never been kissed by so many men after that final whistle Looking forward to see you guys in Oz in the final for the next round @mantissanet said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
If you don’t like scrums and union then just go watch league
...and this is the shit I can't stand. The state of the game is being rightly criticised but you see fit to dismiss a whole lot of valid concern from lifelong rugby people with this one line of juvenile nonsense. Sure there are some people throwing toys, but that is far from all it is.
I loved rugby for the variety. I do fucking love scrums. I stopped watching league when I was a kid because it was repetitive: hit hit hit kick. And that sadly is exactly what rugby has become. Read this: https://www.statsperform.com/resource/revolutionising-rugby-a-statistical-analysis-on-how-the-game-has-evolved/
Then if you like you could just admit you're happy because you won and don't give a shit about the game itself. -
@W32 those 2 def have a bromance going on, but in todays day and age, I think its great to see these 2 have built such a friendship.
Just seen this image on social media, unsure if it's been posted already, but it is a pretty powerful image that puts it all in context.
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@W32 those 2 def have a bromance going on, but in todays day and age, I think its great to see these 2 have built such a friendship.
Just seen this image on social media, unsure if it's been posted already, but it is a pretty powerful image that puts it all in context.
@taniwharugby yeah, my eyes prickled a bit
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At least this proved Twickers was an apparition.
That's my backup@BerniesCorner said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
At least this proved Twickers was an apparition.
The ABs were a bit ghost-like that day, I’ll give you that.
Aberration is the word you’re looking for.
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@mantissanet said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
If you don’t like scrums and union then just go watch league
...and this is the shit I can't stand. The state of the game is being rightly criticised but you see fit to dismiss a whole lot of valid concern from lifelong rugby people with this one line of juvenile nonsense. Sure there are some people throwing toys, but that is far from all it is.
I loved rugby for the variety. I do fucking love scrums. I stopped watching league when I was a kid because it was repetitive: hit hit hit kick. And that sadly is exactly what rugby has become. Read this: https://www.statsperform.com/resource/revolutionising-rugby-a-statistical-analysis-on-how-the-game-has-evolved/
Then if you like you could just admit you're happy because you won and don't give a shit about the game itself.This post is deleted! -
I'm laughing at all the ref saltiness, the ref wasn't perfect. We could've won with a better coach, simple as. Foster called for the corner when it should've been 3, and Foster waited too long to put DMac on (and when he did replaced the wrong player). In addition, someone like Roigard who could make an impact would've been good too. Bench players are so important, having safe ginger was stupid.
The players made it worse by not being calm enough and turning over more ball than they ever have before - not all of it under pressure - lots of 50-50 and just stone-cold shitty drops. Our best player had to play for 3 with Frizzle deciding to revert to type (1 fucking tackle!), and Cane being a dumb ass and going in high (again). I can give the player's slack as they are on the field and the mental pressure must be huge, having been in those sorts of situations clarity is hard. It's a lot easier for coaches/generals sitting back in the COAC with the screens, tho.
Yes, there were calls against us, but we could've won that with slightly more intelligence and leadership.
SA might have been crap in the second half but their game plan allows for that, it is simple and effective. But they can be beaten if you have the right mental fortitude on the pitch and in the box - we didn't. -
I'm laughing at all the ref saltiness, the ref wasn't perfect. We could've won with a better coach, simple as. Foster called for the corner when it should've been 3, and Foster waited too long to put DMac on (and when he did replaced the wrong player). In addition, someone like Roigard who could make an impact would've been good too. Bench players are so important, having safe ginger was stupid.
The players made it worse by not being calm enough and turning over more ball than they ever have before - not all of it under pressure - lots of 50-50 and just stone-cold shitty drops. Our best player had to play for 3 with Frizzle deciding to revert to type (1 fucking tackle!), and Cane being a dumb ass and going in high (again). I can give the player's slack as they are on the field and the mental pressure must be huge, having been in those sorts of situations clarity is hard. It's a lot easier for coaches/generals sitting back in the COAC with the screens, tho.
Yes, there were calls against us, but we could've won that with slightly more intelligence and leadership.
SA might have been crap in the second half but their game plan allows for that, it is simple and effective. But they can be beaten if you have the right mental fortitude on the pitch and in the box - we didn't.@Machpants The problem is that the TMO swing factor is greater than the gap between the sides. In a one off game that means TMO decides winner. If Cane yellow and Kolisi red, ABs win.
Pretty crap way to determine winner of a tournament.
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@pakman said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Billy-Tell said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Kiwiwomble said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@booboo its seems to basic...too basic to stuff up so just went back to look....the lineout is the fifth phase before the try....its just painful
Maybe so. But it WAS a knock on.
Entirely cause by EE illegal interference. It ought to have been left to stand, because the only correct alternative was a penalty try and EE in bin for 10.
You can't give a pen try for that infringement. But I agree with Reason (ugh), if Barnes found no fault and we scored half a dozen phases later, the TMO has overstepped his bounds to disallow the try. You could argue that it was also a failure of Barnes not to know the two phase rule and disregard the TMOs input
@canefan said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@pakman said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Billy-Tell said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Kiwiwomble said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@booboo its seems to basic...too basic to stuff up so just went back to look....the lineout is the fifth phase before the try....its just painful
Maybe so. But it WAS a knock on.
Entirely cause by EE illegal interference. It ought to have been left to stand, because the only correct alternative was a penalty try and EE in bin for 10.
You can't give a pen try for that infringement. But I agree with Reason (ugh), if Barnes found no fault and we scored half a dozen phases later, the TMO has overstepped his bounds to disallow the try. You could argue that it was also a failure of Barnes not to know the two phase rule and disregard the TMOs input
That is incorrect. Rule 8 is clear. But for the infringement a try would have been scored, which is the test.
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I'm laughing at all the ref saltiness, the ref wasn't perfect. We could've won with a better coach, simple as. Foster called for the corner when it should've been 3, and Foster waited too long to put DMac on (and when he did replaced the wrong player). In addition, someone like Roigard who could make an impact would've been good too. Bench players are so important, having safe ginger was stupid.
The players made it worse by not being calm enough and turning over more ball than they ever have before - not all of it under pressure - lots of 50-50 and just stone-cold shitty drops. Our best player had to play for 3 with Frizzle deciding to revert to type (1 fucking tackle!), and Cane being a dumb ass and going in high (again). I can give the player's slack as they are on the field and the mental pressure must be huge, having been in those sorts of situations clarity is hard. It's a lot easier for coaches/generals sitting back in the COAC with the screens, tho.
Yes, there were calls against us, but we could've won that with slightly more intelligence and leadership.
SA might have been crap in the second half but their game plan allows for that, it is simple and effective. But they can be beaten if you have the right mental fortitude on the pitch and in the box - we didn't.@Machpants said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
I'm laughing at all the ref saltiness, the ref wasn't perfect. We could've won with a better coach, simple as. Foster called for the corner when it should've been 3, and Foster waited too long to put DMac on (and when he did replaced the wrong player). In addition, someone like Roigard who could make an impact would've been good too. Bench players are so important, having safe ginger was stupid.
The players made it worse by not being calm enough and turning over more ball than they ever have before - not all of it under pressure - lots of 50-50 and just stone-cold shitty drops. Our best player had to play for 3 with Frizzle deciding to revert to type (1 fucking tackle!), and Cane being a dumb ass and going in high (again). I can give the player's slack as they are on the field and the mental pressure must be huge, having been in those sorts of situations clarity is hard. It's a lot easier for coaches/generals sitting back in the COAC with the screens, tho.
Yes, there were calls against us, but we could've won that with slightly more intelligence and leadership.
SA might have been crap in the second half but their game plan allows for that, it is simple and effective. But they can be beaten if you have the right mental fortitude on the pitch and in the box - we didn't.100%. It's a typical Foster move to depart from a winning plan, just look at the pool game vs the French. Play as we did against Ireland and the ref is taken out of the equation as we would have led in the game and made the saffas chase us
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@NTA said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
Right. Barnes had a different view of it, Ardie didnt come off enough.
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@Machpants The problem is that the TMO swing factor is greater than the gap between the sides. In a one off game that means TMO decides winner. If Cane yellow and Kolisi red, ABs win.
Pretty crap way to determine winner of a tournament.
@pakman said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Machpants The problem is that the TMO swing factor is greater than the gap between the sides. In a one off game that means TMO decides winner. If Cane yellow and Kolisi red, ABs win.
Pretty crap way to determine winner of a tournament.
TMO doesn't decide if it is yellow or red the two (note two) unnamed bunker officials do. And their decisions on those were reasonable, you can disagree, but I see where they were coming from. However, you can take them out of the reckoning by not going high, see Ireland this year, they managed a year with a couple of cards- we get that every fucking game!
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I think you’ve nailed it pretty much. You always expect NZ to play the most intelligent rugby, but the Saffers played smarter on the day imo. Odd, because you clearly have some intelligent players. What’s the issue? Leadership? Coaching?
@Catogrande said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
I think you’ve nailed it pretty much. You always expect NZ to play the most intelligent rugby, but the Saffers played smarter on the day imo. Odd, because you clearly have some intelligent players. What’s the issue? Leadership? Coaching?
The competitions they play in.
Super was the premier pro comp in the world a few years ago. Now it's a shadow of it's former self, littered with easy beat teams and getting more homogenous. Players aren't being asked to play different styels, they are getting put into difficult situations where they have to learn. Ultimately, NH comps have gone past us - and that's why they were favourites this RWC cycle. Shining at Super no longer leads to an expectation of shining in TestsWe have to learn, make smart rugby and business decisions and get good administration and competition execution. COntrol what we can control, and keep pushing for better laws.
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@pakman said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Machpants The problem is that the TMO swing factor is greater than the gap between the sides. In a one off game that means TMO decides winner. If Cane yellow and Kolisi red, ABs win.
Pretty crap way to determine winner of a tournament.
TMO doesn't decide if it is yellow or red the two (note two) unnamed bunker officials do. And their decisions on those were reasonable, you can disagree, but I see where they were coming from. However, you can take them out of the reckoning by not going high, see Ireland this year, they managed a year with a couple of cards- we get that every fucking game!
@Machpants said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@pakman said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Machpants The problem is that the TMO swing factor is greater than the gap between the sides. In a one off game that means TMO decides winner. If Cane yellow and Kolisi red, ABs win.
Pretty crap way to determine winner of a tournament.
TMO doesn't decide if it is yellow or red the two (note two) unnamed bunker officials do. And their decisions on those were reasonable, you can disagree, but I see where they were coming from. However, you can take them out of the reckoning by not going high, see Ireland this year, they managed a year with a couple of cards- we get that every fucking game!
By TMO I mean TMO/Bunker.
There are two key problems, which present themselves:
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Rugby involves high speed changes of directions, deflections and random ball bounces. Even with correct technique there are likely each game to be a number of head impacts where there is neither intent, nor head targetting. We probably need to chose between current system, which is throwing up too many 'dubious' full reds, a system where red has to be beyond reasonable doubt (in which case Cane below threshold), or reduce inpact of 'technical' reds, the best idea to date being the 20 minute/new player approach; and
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What gets referred and what doesn't? Refs are human and make plenty of mistakes every game. Most aren't pivotal. But pretty ridiculous not to have TMO correct ref for example in quarter when BOK penalises French for holding on when different angle clearly show Kwagga having to put hand on ground so as not to overbalance. That knocked France out of RWC incorrectly. For me, if you've got technology then kicks for goal ought to fall within remit. And how far do we go back? Saw somewhere it was two phases, in which case Smith try stands. Added to which, how did EE forearm on De Groot not get reviewed when Cane tackle was: incompetence?
Better coaching can only take you so far while this mess continues.
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I remember around 11 I used to lurk around on a few rugby forums , and there were plenty from other countries cheering for France , and complaining about the ref afterwards and my answer was , they had their opportunities to win and didn’t take them.
So here we are , it feels like the shoe is on the other foot now, what goes around comes around and all that , so I’m not going to say too much without being a hypocrite.
