All Blacks 2024
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@Chris said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
we only have media speculation that Razor is chasing him.
Which, to be fair, you were justifying. I don't know if Robertson is chasing or considering 35 year old retired locks for his team, but I certainly hope not. It's hardly forward-thinking, nor does it inspire confidence in squad development
@Victor-Meldrew but if he comes back and is still one of the top 2 locks we have, why wouldn't you play him...if you are good enough you are old/young enough...
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@Victor-Meldrew but if he comes back and is still one of the top 2 locks we have, why wouldn't you play him...if you are good enough you are old/young enough...
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@Victor-Meldrew but if he comes back and is still one of the top 2 locks we have, why wouldn't you play him...if you are good enough you are old/young enough...
If he comes back in 2025 after his 2 year Pau contract, then yeah, that's a possibility. But he'll be pushing 37 by then and I'd like to think we have a Head Coach who want to look to the future and is capable of developing his players and team.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@Victor-Meldrew but if he comes back and is still one of the top 2 locks we have, why wouldn't you play him...if you are good enough you are old/young enough...
If he comes back in 2025 after his 2 year Pau contract, then yeah, that's a possibility. But he'll be pushing 37 by then and I'd like to think we have a Head Coach who want to look to the future and is capable of developing his players and team.
@Victor-Meldrew again, if he is the best, and proved it, not reputational, then it's a non issue who's coming through.
This is where McCaw simply retiring from the game made it easier, were no calls for his return, while I am sure Sam knows his body and what he can or can't still do, he is also risking his own legacy if he does come back and fails to fire.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@Victor-Meldrew but if he comes back and is still one of the top 2 locks we have, why wouldn't you play him...if you are good enough you are old/young enough...
If he comes back in 2025 after his 2 year Pau contract, then yeah, that's a possibility. But he'll be pushing 37 by then and I'd like to think we have a Head Coach who want to look to the future and is capable of developing his players and team.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@Victor-Meldrew but if he comes back and is still one of the top 2 locks we have, why wouldn't you play him...if you are good enough you are old/young enough...
If he comes back in 2025 after his 2 year Pau contract, then yeah, that's a possibility. But he'll be pushing 37 by then and I'd like to think we have a Head Coach who want to look to the future and is capable of developing his players and team.
Note his contract is one year with an option for another, not 2 years. Sam could easily be back at the end of the French season, which is just before the NH tours here
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
I would have thought that was the role of the forwards coaching setup. SW as a mentor, good idea.
Hall on the rugby pod suggesting that it is a Razor strategy for getting a voice in the room who he trusts that can provide back room advice and mentoring.
Hall has essentially said that at the end of the day it’s about his relationship with Razor.
In some ways, I think that it’s great that Razor values his experience so much, but it’s also worrying that he doesn’t seem to be confident of developing that culture without a player who has left.
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
I would have thought that was the role of the forwards coaching setup. SW as a mentor, good idea.
Hall on the rugby pod suggesting that it is a Razor strategy for getting a voice in the room who he trusts that can provide back room advice and mentoring.
Hall has essentially said that at the end of the day it’s about his relationship with Razor.
In some ways, I think that it’s great that Razor values his experience so much, but it’s also worrying that he doesn’t seem to be confident of developing that culture without a player who has left.
I not sure it's about not being confident of developing culture etc (that's all jsut assumption anyway why they think is why he wants Sam), but more I would think use every weapon at your disposal. It's not so much culture as anyway I think ,as helping players make decisions on field. I have said before I pleased that coaches do this, he won't last to WC, but tests we play until then are still imprtant.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@Victor-Meldrew but if he comes back and is still one of the top 2 locks we have, why wouldn't you play him...if you are good enough you are old/young enough...
If he comes back in 2025 after his 2 year Pau contract, then yeah, that's a possibility. But he'll be pushing 37 by then and I'd like to think we have a Head Coach who want to look to the future and is capable of developing his players and team.
Note his contract is one year with an option for another, not 2 years. Sam could easily be back at the end of the French season, which is just before the NH tours here
@Machpants said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@Victor-Meldrew but if he comes back and is still one of the top 2 locks we have, why wouldn't you play him...if you are good enough you are old/young enough...
If he comes back in 2025 after his 2 year Pau contract, then yeah, that's a possibility. But he'll be pushing 37 by then and I'd like to think we have a Head Coach who want to look to the future and is capable of developing his players and team.
Note his contract is one year with an option for another, not 2 years. Sam could easily be back at the end of the French season, which is just before the NH tours here
I guess I'd prefer a new AB coach (if the rumours are true) to look beyond a 12-18 month horizon and not focus his energy on a 35 yr lock.
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@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
I would have thought that was the role of the forwards coaching setup. SW as a mentor, good idea.
Hall on the rugby pod suggesting that it is a Razor strategy for getting a voice in the room who he trusts that can provide back room advice and mentoring.
Hall has essentially said that at the end of the day it’s about his relationship with Razor.
In some ways, I think that it’s great that Razor values his experience so much, but it’s also worrying that he doesn’t seem to be confident of developing that culture without a player who has left.
I not sure it's about not being confident of developing culture etc (that's all jsut assumption anyway why they think is why he wants Sam), but more I would think use every weapon at your disposal. It's not so much culture as anyway I think ,as helping players make decisions on field. I have said before I pleased that coaches do this, he won't last to WC, but tests we play until then are still imprtant.
If Robertson wants SW in a coaching/mentoring role, then great. If he wants him back as a player to help make decisions on the field, then the question is why Robertson doesn't have faith in the current crop of non-retired senior ABs to do this.
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If Robertson wants SW in a coaching/mentoring role, then great. If he wants him back as a player to help make decisions on the field, then the question is why Robertson doesn't have faith in the current crop of non-retired senior ABs to do this.
@Victor-Meldrew my concern with Razor supposedly 'chasing' Whitelock, is the message it sends to the next crop of players.
As above, if he's the best, fine, but he would need to be clearly the best.
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The concern for me is Robertson built his team around Richie and Sam, so him chasing them and talking about relaxing the rules for overseas players makes me think he's just going to try and implement his Crusaders game plan at test level, and believes they are best to do that for him. As I said earlier, the lack of international coaching experience may expose him - Super rugby and test rugby are so far apart these days, e.g. Richie was a superstar at Super rugby, probably the best ever, but was really just bog standard at test level as it's a different ball game.
TBH this isn't what I expected of him. I thought he was the guy that could take any team and make them greater than the sum of their parts. Starting to think Whitelock has been the brains at the Crusaders?
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The concern for me is Robertson built his team around Richie and Sam, so him chasing them and talking about relaxing the rules for overseas players makes me think he's just going to try and implement his Crusaders game plan at test level, and believes they are best to do that for him. As I said earlier, the lack of international coaching experience may expose him - Super rugby and test rugby are so far apart these days, e.g. Richie was a superstar at Super rugby, probably the best ever, but was really just bog standard at test level as it's a different ball game.
TBH this isn't what I expected of him. I thought he was the guy that could take any team and make them greater than the sum of their parts. Starting to think Whitelock has been the brains at the Crusaders?
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
The concern for me is Robertson built his team around Richie and Sam, so him chasing them and talking about relaxing the rules for overseas players makes me think he's just going to try and implement his Crusaders game plan at test level
Or it's about our shallow depth currently at 10 and at lock.
How about we wait and see how the ABs actually play before jumping to conclusions.
We haven't even heard Razor speak about the Whitelock piece yet.
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@pakman said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
Is William Harmon too old to be in the mix?
i would love it if Harmon was 3 year younger...but 29 at the start of a world cup cycle it a big call...when there are other very good options
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For the scrum loving Ferners, the question is who would be the TH lock?
Patty T has never really excelled there. Lord and Vaa’i both LH. Holland there for Clan. Not sure Chch locks are candidates. Nor Canes.
@pakman said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
For the scrum loving Ferners, the question is who would be the TH lock?
Patty T has never really excelled there. Lord and Vaa’i both LH. Holland there for Clan. Not sure Chch locks are candidates. Nor Canes.
Some of the locks have switched depending on who they are playing with. For example, Whitelock was the LH lock when playing with Retallick but moved to TH lock when paired with Barrett. IIRC Vaa'i was on the TH side and Lord on the LH side against the Highlanders. I didn't take much notice with Barrett this year (in combination with Strange).
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@Victor-Meldrew my concern with Razor supposedly 'chasing' Whitelock, is the message it sends to the next crop of players.
As above, if he's the best, fine, but he would need to be clearly the best.
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@Victor-Meldrew my concern with Razor supposedly 'chasing' Whitelock, is the message it sends to the next crop of players.
Maybe it's a lack of confidence or nerves from getting the big gig and wanting a sense of familiarity. Understandable.
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The concern for me is Robertson built his team around Richie and Sam, so him chasing them and talking about relaxing the rules for overseas players makes me think he's just going to try and implement his Crusaders game plan at test level, and believes they are best to do that for him. As I said earlier, the lack of international coaching experience may expose him - Super rugby and test rugby are so far apart these days, e.g. Richie was a superstar at Super rugby, probably the best ever, but was really just bog standard at test level as it's a different ball game.
TBH this isn't what I expected of him. I thought he was the guy that could take any team and make them greater than the sum of their parts. Starting to think Whitelock has been the brains at the Crusaders?
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
e.g. Richie was a superstar at Super rugby, probably the best ever, but was really just bog standard at test level as it's a different ball game.
Or razor is the coach that could make him a superstar at test level. Bit early to be slinging arrows yet.
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The concern for me is Robertson built his team around Richie and Sam, so him chasing them and talking about relaxing the rules for overseas players makes me think he's just going to try and implement his Crusaders game plan at test level, and believes they are best to do that for him. As I said earlier, the lack of international coaching experience may expose him - Super rugby and test rugby are so far apart these days, e.g. Richie was a superstar at Super rugby, probably the best ever, but was really just bog standard at test level as it's a different ball game.
TBH this isn't what I expected of him. I thought he was the guy that could take any team and make them greater than the sum of their parts. Starting to think Whitelock has been the brains at the Crusaders?
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
e.g. Richie was a superstar at Super rugby, probably the best ever, but was really just bog standard at test level as it's a different ball game.
what? this is literally the first time ive heard anyone suggest Richie was only average at test level....is this a thing?
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If Robertson wants SW in a coaching/mentoring role, then great. If he wants him back as a player to help make decisions on the field, then the question is why Robertson doesn't have faith in the current crop of non-retired senior ABs to do this.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
If Robertson wants SW in a coaching/mentoring role, then great. If he wants him back as a player to help make decisions on the field, then the question is why Robertson doesn't have faith in the current crop of non-retired senior ABs to do this.
Not sure it's about not having faith etc, more about using all tools in your box? Ti me tests this year and next are as important as WC, and I think he has to be prepared to do whatever he has to win tests. See I not into this he 35 so no good anymore, same as I not into the other side of the coin.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
e.g. Richie was a superstar at Super rugby, probably the best ever, but was really just bog standard at test level as it's a different ball game.
what? this is literally the first time ive heard anyone suggest Richie was only average at test level....is this a thing?
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
e.g. Richie was a superstar at Super rugby, probably the best ever, but was really just bog standard at test level as it's a different ball game.
what? this is literally the first time ive heard anyone suggest Richie was only average at test level....is this a thing?
LOL you been living under a rock? He was better last year but outside that he's been average (average international level) not great but OK, never gripping it. There has been all sorts of reasons given, like not been given the total keys with Beaudy around, or playing behind the rolls royce pack of the crusaders (RIP) an ABs forwards did not dominate the same way, but this has been the narrative for ever!
A quick google gives this article from 2021, from Rugby365 site
OPINION: For the past four seasons, Richie Mo’unga has been one of, if not the best performer at Super Rugby level.
The prodigiously talented first five has at times made a mockery of defences and he’s continued that excellent form into 2021.
Despite his impressive showings for the Crusaders, however, Mo’unga has never replicated that form at Test rugby level.
Since his debut in 2017, Mo’unga has started 16 matches for the All Blacks in the pivot role but his form in the black jersey would best be described as adequate – which is nowhere the level he’s proven himself capable of when representing the Super Rugby champions.
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
e.g. Richie was a superstar at Super rugby, probably the best ever, but was really just bog standard at test level as it's a different ball game.
what? this is literally the first time ive heard anyone suggest Richie was only average at test level....is this a thing?
LOL you been living under a rock? He was better last year but outside that he's been average (average international level) not great but OK, never gripping it. There has been all sorts of reasons given, like not been given the total keys with Beaudy around, or playing behind the rolls royce pack of the crusaders (RIP) an ABs forwards did not dominate the same way, but this has been the narrative for ever!
A quick google gives this article from 2021, from Rugby365 site
OPINION: For the past four seasons, Richie Mo’unga has been one of, if not the best performer at Super Rugby level.
The prodigiously talented first five has at times made a mockery of defences and he’s continued that excellent form into 2021.
Despite his impressive showings for the Crusaders, however, Mo’unga has never replicated that form at Test rugby level.
Since his debut in 2017, Mo’unga has started 16 matches for the All Blacks in the pivot role but his form in the black jersey would best be described as adequate – which is nowhere the level he’s proven himself capable of when representing the Super Rugby champions.
@Machpants Oh!!!
my mind went to SIR Richie....rather than richie...id already forgotten about him :cat_face_with_tears_of_joy: ....ignore me
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@Machpants Oh!!!
my mind went to SIR Richie....rather than richie...id already forgotten about him :cat_face_with_tears_of_joy: ....ignore me
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@Machpants Oh!!!
my mind went to SIR Richie....rather than richie....ignore me
