All Blacks 2024
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A bit more details in this article, if correct shows that Sam sounded the waters with NZE, Razor gave a positive response - as he should
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A bit more details in this article, if correct shows that Sam sounded the waters with NZE, Razor gave a positive response - as he should
@Machpants Thanks for posting that, does seem what I said and supected, perhaps Sam just wasn't finding France great place to live/play rather than he was getting chased!
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@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@cgrant Was going to say exactly same thing mate, Micheal Hooper wasn't big either.
Kirifi isn't Hooper level as a player even if he compares sizewise.
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@cgrant Was going to say exactly same thing mate, Micheal Hooper wasn't big either.
Kirifi isn't Hooper level as a player even if he compares sizewise.
Wasn't suggeting he was or wasn't, just answering the he's to small for test rugby. I say crap, if h's good enough he's big enough, he's not that small.
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@Machpants Thanks for posting that, does seem what I said and supected, perhaps Sam just wasn't finding France great place to live/play rather than he was getting chased!
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@Nepia said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@cgrant Was going to say exactly same thing mate, Micheal Hooper wasn't big either.
Kirifi isn't Hooper level as a player even if he compares sizewise.
Wasn't suggeting he was or wasn't, just answering the he's to small for test rugby. I say crap, if h's good enough he's big enough, he's not that small.
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@cgrant Was going to say exactly same thing mate, Micheal Hooper wasn't big either.
Kirifi isn't Hooper level as a player even if he compares sizewise.
Wasn't suggeting he was or wasn't, just answering the he's to small for test rugby. I say crap, if h's good enough he's big enough, he's not that small.
Yeah but a big crap player will always be better than a small crap player
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@Dan54 that part of the world would be a fantastic place to live. I suspect the meat grinder that is the top 14 is the problem.
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@Dan54 that part of the world would be a fantastic place to live. I suspect the meat grinder that is the top 14 is the problem.
Oh yeah mate, but even with a great place to live, he's got young kids that are shool age who may or maybe not keen on being away from it all, and as you say top 14 could be a grind, especially if your heart wasn't in it.
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@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@cgrant Was going to say exactly same thing mate, Micheal Hooper wasn't big either.
Kirifi isn't Hooper level as a player even if he compares sizewise.
Wasn't suggeting he was or wasn't, just answering the he's to small for test rugby. I say crap, if h's good enough he's big enough, he's not that small.
Yeah but a big crap player will always be better than a small crap player
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@cgrant Was going to say exactly same thing mate, Micheal Hooper wasn't big either.
Kirifi isn't Hooper level as a player even if he compares sizewise.
Wasn't suggeting he was or wasn't, just answering the he's to small for test rugby. I say crap, if h's good enough he's big enough, he's not that small.
Yeah but a big crap player will always be better than a small crap player
Personally would never say he a crap player either mate, there not many crap players make super rugby anyway. Not all are ABs though.
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@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@Dan54 that part of the world would be a fantastic place to live. I suspect the meat grinder that is the top 14 is the problem.
Oh yeah mate, but even with a great place to live, he's got young kids that are shool age who may or maybe not keen on being away from it all, and as you say top 14 could be a grind, especially if your heart wasn't in it.
Yes an, there are lot of reasons that people may or may not settle in a place or want to stay long term.
There should be very good international schools for his kids - that shouldn’t be an issue and his club will have that down to a fine art I am sure.
If it is a decision to prolong his playing career and play in a comp that would suit him, then I have thought that Japan would be his best option to do that.
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Yes an, there are lot of reasons that people may or may not settle in a place or want to stay long term.
There should be very good international schools for his kids - that shouldn’t be an issue and his club will have that down to a fine art I am sure.
If it is a decision to prolong his playing career and play in a comp that would suit him, then I have thought that Japan would be his best option to do that.
@DaGrubster yep mate other thing is as I have said, Anton Oliver said he knew as soon as he played first game for Toulon it wasn't for him. As he said the day he stopped playing for ABs was day the music died, and he knew he was playing just for money. Some people it doesn't suit, some ot does.
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Potentially mate they could be.
I think all of this speculation from some newspaper articles is just that. Speculation.
If Whitelock doesn’t want to extend his contract then he will be looking for another gig and I am sure having a discussion with Razor about coming back is an option for him, amongst others.
I can see the benefit of bringing him back for the next 2 years - he could still provide lots of experience off the bench, starting at a pinch and mentor a number of young locks that are coming through and be a de facto lineout/lock coach.
As you say, the next 2 years are important for Razor to establish himself in international rugby and give him the platform for the lead up to and including the next RWC, and he is looking at all the tools he can use to make him successful, especially in a short term problem area of locking depth.
Look at Fozzie after 2 years - should have been sacked and it caused civil war in rugby circles.
Razor would do well to avoid the same scenario so I see no issue with him having discussions with ex-players and giving himself the best chance of being successful. Let’s face it, this year is a brutal test schedule.
Where would we rather be? Winning 14/tests with Sam Whitelock playing 30 minutes of 10 of those games as they blood Lord and Darry further?
Or winning 9 out of 15 games but thankfully we didn’t waste any money on a lock who is past it?
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
As you say, the next 2 years are important for Razor to establish himself in international rugby
He's already established in international rugby - he's the bloody Head Coach of the bloody All Blacks.. He didn't think lack of international experience was an issue when going for the job so I don't see why it should be now NZR's actually given him the gig for 4 years.
I'd prefer he uses his time to develop his team based on the current AB core and the talent available to him. If he loses a few on the way then fine, as long as there's development I'd be OK with that.
But if he want's to go for a short-term sticking plaster approach with 37 yr-old retired players in key positions to ensure a good win ratio, then that speaks volumes for his player development skills to me - and not in a good way.
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@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
As you say, the next 2 years are important for Razor to establish himself in international rugby
He's already established in international rugby - he's the bloody Head Coach of the bloody All Blacks.. He didn't think lack of international experience was an issue when going for the job so I don't see why it should be now NZR's actually given him the gig for 4 years.
I'd prefer he uses his time to develop his team based on the current AB core and the talent available to him. If he loses a few on the way then fine, as long as there's development I'd be OK with that.
But if he want's to go for a short-term sticking plaster approach with 37 yr-old retired players in key positions to ensure a good win ratio, then that speaks volumes for his player development skills to me - and not in a good way.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
If he loses a few on the way then fine, as long as there's development I'd be OK with that
Oh cool. Someone tell Razor don't worry about losing a few games cos Victor Meldrew says not to worry it's sweet.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
If he loses a few on the way then fine, as long as there's development I'd be OK with that
Oh cool. Someone tell Razor don't worry about losing a few games cos Victor Meldrew says not to worry it's sweet.
Nice ad hom, but not what I said.
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Nice ad hom, but not what I said.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
Nice ad hom, but not what I said.
We don't know if Whitelock even came back how many games he would be playing - players can be developed and Whitelock can return. It's not mutually exclusive.
Other locks will get more gametime just with the loss of Retallick and that's not accounting for any more injuries.
Whitelock might be being eyed up to play the Dane Coles role of senior old pro towards the end of the depth chart (to use a US sports term).
It might be that they really rate this young Holland kid head and shoulders above the other players not already in the squad but he's not eligible til next year.
I'm not really sure who these mythical players are that would miss out on development if Whitelock returned.
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@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
As you say, the next 2 years are important for Razor to establish himself in international rugby
He's already established in international rugby - he's the bloody Head Coach of the bloody All Blacks.. He didn't think lack of international experience was an issue when going for the job so I don't see why it should be now NZR's actually given him the gig for 4 years.
I'd prefer he uses his time to develop his team based on the current AB core and the talent available to him. If he loses a few on the way then fine, as long as there's development I'd be OK with that.
But if he want's to go for a short-term sticking plaster approach with 37 yr-old retired players in key positions to ensure a good win ratio, then that speaks volumes for his player development skills to me - and not in a good way.
Ok Mr grumpy.
The reason I said that is he will want to not have the same issues that Foster had after 2 years. He wants to have gained trust with players the board the public.
We don’t want a repeat of the shitfest that happened with Fozzie do we? That will just undermine him, his staff and playing group and not set us up for success.
He is the Ab coach, but with zero wins as AB coach. Over 3 months away until his first match as aB coach.
The ‘chasing’ of Whitelock now seems more like the approach from Whitelock’s agent. Putting feelers out, providing options for his client. He would be a useful player/mentor/whatever you call him to have for a specific area of the AB squad that is seen as one of our biggest problem areas.
If he came back, I doubt he will start 15 tests this year.
Razor is different. And thank fuck for that tbh. There is plenty of evidence that he is excellent at building outstanding rugby teams that are highly skilled, technically excellent, and big on culture as well as developing and improving players.
Why are people suddenly questioning him after reading some news articles?
I get what you are saying about working with what you have got. But, so many players have developed into ABs under Razor that I only see his as excellent in a player development role.
I am not advocating for this but people say we don’t need to change eligibility rules yet. I think people are waiting for a few years of poor AB results until it becomes inevitable that we do this. Why wait for years of losses to make this change? Wouldn’t it be ideal to be able to get ahead of it, so we don’t suffer a number of poor results that force us to change, and be able to use it to our advantage with certain players/positions that helps improve or results without having to go through the pain first?
I agree it seemed strange to see him discussing eligibility in the summer. It seemed a wrong step for him to take at first.
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@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
As you say, the next 2 years are important for Razor to establish himself in international rugby
He's already established in international rugby - he's the bloody Head Coach of the bloody All Blacks.. He didn't think lack of international experience was an issue when going for the job so I don't see why it should be now NZR's actually given him the gig for 4 years.
I'd prefer he uses his time to develop his team based on the current AB core and the talent available to him. If he loses a few on the way then fine, as long as there's development I'd be OK with that.
But if he want's to go for a short-term sticking plaster approach with 37 yr-old retired players in key positions to ensure a good win ratio, then that speaks volumes for his player development skills to me - and not in a good way.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
As you say, the next 2 years are important for Razor to establish himself in international rugby
He's already established in international rugby - he's the bloody Head Coach of the bloody All Blacks.. He didn't think lack of international experience was an issue when going for the job so I don't see why it should be now NZR's actually given him the gig for 4 years.
I'd prefer he uses his time to develop his team based on the current AB core and the talent available to him. If he loses a few on the way then fine, as long as there's development I'd be OK with that.
But if he want's to go for a short-term sticking plaster approach with 37 yr-old retired players in key positions to ensure a good win ratio, then that speaks volumes for his player development skills to me - and not in a good way.
Find someone who loves you like you loved Fozzie.
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Ok Mr grumpy.
The reason I said that is he will want to not have the same issues that Foster had after 2 years. He wants to have gained trust with players the board the public.
We don’t want a repeat of the shitfest that happened with Fozzie do we? That will just undermine him, his staff and playing group and not set us up for success.
He is the Ab coach, but with zero wins as AB coach. Over 3 months away until his first match as aB coach.
The ‘chasing’ of Whitelock now seems more like the approach from Whitelock’s agent. Putting feelers out, providing options for his client. He would be a useful player/mentor/whatever you call him to have for a specific area of the AB squad that is seen as one of our biggest problem areas.
If he came back, I doubt he will start 15 tests this year.
Razor is different. And thank fuck for that tbh. There is plenty of evidence that he is excellent at building outstanding rugby teams that are highly skilled, technically excellent, and big on culture as well as developing and improving players.
Why are people suddenly questioning him after reading some news articles?
I get what you are saying about working with what you have got. But, so many players have developed into ABs under Razor that I only see his as excellent in a player development role.
I am not advocating for this but people say we don’t need to change eligibility rules yet. I think people are waiting for a few years of poor AB results until it becomes inevitable that we do this. Why wait for years of losses to make this change? Wouldn’t it be ideal to be able to get ahead of it, so we don’t suffer a number of poor results that force us to change, and be able to use it to our advantage with certain players/positions that helps improve or results without having to go through the pain first?
I agree it seemed strange to see him discussing eligibility in the summer. It seemed a wrong step for him to take at first.
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
Razor is different. And thank fuck for that tbh. There is plenty of evidence that he is excellent at building outstanding rugby teams that are highly skilled, technically excellent, and big on culture as well as developing and improving players.
I get what you are saying about working with what you have got. But, so many players have developed into ABs under Razor that I only see his as excellent in a player development role.
Exatly. And if he has 4 years and the skills to do all these things, why would you want to bring back retired players who'll be pushing 40?
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@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
Razor is different. And thank fuck for that tbh. There is plenty of evidence that he is excellent at building outstanding rugby teams that are highly skilled, technically excellent, and big on culture as well as developing and improving players.
I get what you are saying about working with what you have got. But, so many players have developed into ABs under Razor that I only see his as excellent in a player development role.
Exatly. And if he has 4 years and the skills to do all these things, why would you want to bring back retired players who'll be pushing 40?
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
Razor is different. And thank fuck for that tbh. There is plenty of evidence that he is excellent at building outstanding rugby teams that are highly skilled, technically excellent, and big on culture as well as developing and improving players.
I get what you are saying about working with what you have got. But, so many players have developed into ABs under Razor that I only see his as excellent in a player development role.
Exatly. And if he has 4 years and the skills to do all these things, why would you want to bring back retired players who'll be pushing 40?
It seems SW's agent sounded out NZR and NZR engaged. Sounds like both parties doing their jobs. I really don't get why this is such a big deal. If they can come to an agreement that sees SW come back, great. I'd rather SW's experienced shared in NZ than France. They have enough of our intellectual capital.
