Super Rugby 2024
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@mariner4life said in Super Rugby 2024:
@Nepia said in Super Rugby 2024:
@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2024:
@Nepia i think there is a middle ground too be found, international and Franchise/club are different things and should be markets as such, one doesnt need to be subservient to the other. if we can make the franchise game as popular as NRL and then the international game set in where we have State of Origin then we'd be onto something
Yeah, but many players often sit out club games during SoO season and this seems to be the main issue that people complain about when talking about the test player breaks in Super Rugby.
come on you're better than that
Nathan Cleary isn't taking games off in April for SoO, he's taking the game off on the weekend after playing on Wednesday night. Actually the number of guys that front up on the weekend surprises me every year.
The point is that big name players don't play all games, yet I'm constantly hearing complaints that one of the problems with SR is the big name players don't play all games.
Where they take a break really doesn't matter, they're still not playing all games.
@Nepia there are those that have said that, i had the same pointed out when ive suggested the top NPC playing super rugby..."but the the best players in the small unions might not play"
..but i hoestly think its very different to not seeing the play 3 days after we've just seen them light up the biggest stage
i think we HAVE to look at other sports....because there are very few successful rugby comps....and we are also talking about a huge overlap in market....so not looking at what
the same people are positively responding too in NRL....is just asking to keep failing -
@Nepia there are those that have said that, i had the same pointed out when ive suggested the top NPC playing super rugby..."but the the best players in the small unions might not play"
..but i hoestly think its very different to not seeing the play 3 days after we've just seen them light up the biggest stage
i think we HAVE to look at other sports....because there are very few successful rugby comps....and we are also talking about a huge overlap in market....so not looking at what
the same people are positively responding too in NRL....is just asking to keep failing@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2024:
@Nepia there are those that have said that, i had the same pointed out when ive suggested the top NPC playing super rugby..."but the the best players in the small unions might not play"
..but i hoestly think its very different to not seeing the play 3 days after we've just seen them light up the biggest stage
We're going to have to agree to disagree on that because players missing club/franchise games due to rep footy is the same to me whether in 3 days or due to a players agreement - they're still missing a match either way.
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@Nepia i think there is a middle ground too be found, international and Franchise/club are different things and should be marketed as such, one doesnt need to be subservient to the other. if we can make the franchise game as popular as NRL and then the international game steps in where we have State of Origin then we'd be onto something
@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2024:
@Nepia i think there is a middle ground too be found, international and Franchise/club are different things and should be markets as such, one doesnt need to be subservient to the other. if we can make the franchise game as popular as NRL and then the international game set in where we have State of Origin then we'd be onto something
Agree
But in my view it should be a SRP coaches decision. In the same way it will be 100% the ABs coaches decision. It must not be anything to do with the AB coaches. They can ask (but really shouldnt) but the SRP coaches can tell them OK but no can do.
Until this happens SRP will just be seen as a feeder to the more important test rugby. And the fans will mostly stay away
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@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2024:
@Nepia there are those that have said that, i had the same pointed out when ive suggested the top NPC playing super rugby..."but the the best players in the small unions might not play"
..but i hoestly think its very different to not seeing the play 3 days after we've just seen them light up the biggest stage
We're going to have to agree to disagree on that because players missing club/franchise games due to rep footy is the same to me whether in 3 days or due to a players agreement - they're still missing a match either way.
@Nepia but didn't you just say up above that you dont think the best player should have to play every game?
are you arguing other peoples point?
@Nepia said in Super Rugby 2024:
I have no problem with your point about marketing SR, but I don't think the players have to play every game for the comp to be successful, in fact that requirement is problematic as every comp has injuries etc.
if you're not worried maybe let those that dont like it say so...because it might be different and not as black and white as you think
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@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2024:
@Nepia you mentioned, if we try and compare super rugby with NRL, taking breaks and how that annoyed people, i kind of replied to the point and said i felt players not playing club games because theyre playing the next level up is a little different to the ABs that are just rested
BUT
my point before that wasn't about international games being the equivalent of SoO in the calendar (ie mid week)...but more in how we market them, as these huge spectacles players are genuinely honored to be selected for...rather than the internations being their main job and club game almost just to keep them fit
I have no problem with your point about marketing SR, but I don't think the players have to play every game for the comp to be successful, in fact that requirement is problematic as every comp has injuries etc.
I know that I brought the league comparison in response to Winger, but I find it somewhat problematic that we're always comparing rugby to other sports, and how they operate, especially the NRL. They're similar sports, but not the be all and end all, rugby is a test focussed sport and the players union clearly think stand downs are needed for player welfare in "rugby" in the SH. I can handle the Chiefs AB's having the odd week off if it's better for their career longevity. It's not like we have weekends where all the top players are out.
@mariner4life Comparing rugby to NRL is apples and oranges too, but you do you too.
@Nepia said in Super Rugby 2024:
Comparing rugby to NRL is apples and oranges too, but you do you too.
not when they are directly competing for the same eye balls it's not.
If i buy a ticket to watch say the Panthers v the Titans, i can be assured that, barring injury, i am watching Edwards, To'o, Cleary, Yeo, and JFH. So i will go
If i was thinking about buying a ticket to say, the Chiefs v the Crusaders, and the team was named without DMac and Finau, i'm saving my money. To me that is the difference.
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@mariner4life said in Super Rugby 2024:
@Nepia said in Super Rugby 2024:
@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2024:
@Nepia i think there is a middle ground too be found, international and Franchise/club are different things and should be markets as such, one doesnt need to be subservient to the other. if we can make the franchise game as popular as NRL and then the international game set in where we have State of Origin then we'd be onto something
Yeah, but many players often sit out club games during SoO season and this seems to be the main issue that people complain about when talking about the test player breaks in Super Rugby.
come on you're better than that
Nathan Cleary isn't taking games off in April for SoO, he's taking the game off on the weekend after playing on Wednesday night. Actually the number of guys that front up on the weekend surprises me every year.
The point is that big name players don't play all games, yet I'm constantly hearing complaints that one of the problems with SR is the big name players don't play all games.
Where they take a break really doesn't matter, they're still not playing all games.
@Nepia said in Super Rugby 2024:
yet I'm constantly hearing complaints that one of the problems with SR is the big name players don't play all games.
Where. Most SR fans accept the need to rotate players. But it should be a SRP coaches decision not the AB coaches
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@Nepia there are those that have said that, i had the same pointed out when ive suggested the top NPC playing super rugby..."but the the best players in the small unions might not play"
..but i hoestly think its very different to not seeing the play 3 days after we've just seen them light up the biggest stage
i think we HAVE to look at other sports....because there are very few successful rugby comps....and we are also talking about a huge overlap in market....so not looking at what
the same people are positively responding too in NRL....is just asking to keep failing@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2024:
i think we HAVE to look at other sports....because there are very few successful rugby comps....and we are also talking about a huge overlap in market....so not looking at what
the same people are positively responding too in NRL....is just asking to keep failingWe're in a boom time for the Warriors, would anyone who's ever followed them not agree that the chances of there being a bust are close to 100%?
But, even if remove the Warriors hype and look at the market itself, league is a sport dominated by a single club comp with a dollar investment that NZ rugby can never match so trying to emulate it will likely end in failure.
Like it or not, NZ rugby's bread and butter is the international game. We can't create an NRL, we can't even create a Top 14, we are reliant on the ABs to bring in revenue.
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this is all a bit moot though anyway, the initial point was just about club rugby trying to be successful in its own right and not purely as a feeder for the international game, @Nepia is the only one that brought up players having to be rested...and then argued people wouldnt like it
lets just assume no one is being rested (because that wasn't part of the announcement) and move on
@Nepia said in Super Rugby 2024:
@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2024:
i think we HAVE to look at other sports....because there are very few successful rugby comps....and we are also talking about a huge overlap in market....so not looking at what
the same people are positively responding too in NRL....is just asking to keep failingWe're in a boom time for the Warriors, would anyone who's ever followed them not agree that the chances of there being a bust are close to 100%?
But, even if remove the Warriors hype and look at the market itself, league is a sport dominated by a single club comp with a dollar investment that NZ rugby can never match so trying to emulate it will likely end in failure.
Like it or not, NZ rugby's bread and butter is the international game. We can't create an NRL, we can't even create a Top 14, we are reliant on the ABs to bring in revenue.
thats quitter talk, i dont buy the we cant so lets not try....because the "cant" is subjective
rugby is an international game in ANZ because thats the way we've marketed it for the last 25 years and on top of that we've actively split the domestic game...and then chopped and changed it....none of that we cant at least look at changing
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@Nepia but didn't you just say up above that you dont think the best player should have to play every game?
are you arguing other peoples point?
@Nepia said in Super Rugby 2024:
I have no problem with your point about marketing SR, but I don't think the players have to play every game for the comp to be successful, in fact that requirement is problematic as every comp has injuries etc.
if you're not worried maybe let those that dont like it say so...because it might be different and not as black and white as you think
@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2024:
@Nepia but didn't you just say up above that you dont think the best player should have to play every game?
are you arguing other peoples point?
@Nepia said in Super Rugby 2024:
I have no problem with your point about marketing SR, but I don't think the players have to play every game for the comp to be successful, in fact that requirement is problematic as every comp has injuries etc.
if you're not worried maybe let those that dont like it say so...because it might be different and not as black and white as you think
I don't think every player has to play every game. I think you misinterpreted the post you replied to if you think I think differently.
I'm not stopping anyone from "saying so", I'm just arguing my perspective (I'm sitting at home with Covid that I caught in NZ so I have a little bit more time to argue than usual), just as you and @mariner4life are arguing yours while ganging up on me.
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@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2024:
@Nepia but didn't you just say up above that you dont think the best player should have to play every game?
are you arguing other peoples point?
@Nepia said in Super Rugby 2024:
I have no problem with your point about marketing SR, but I don't think the players have to play every game for the comp to be successful, in fact that requirement is problematic as every comp has injuries etc.
if you're not worried maybe let those that dont like it say so...because it might be different and not as black and white as you think
I don't think every player has to play every game. I think you misinterpreted the post you replied to if you think I think differently.
I'm not stopping anyone from "saying so", I'm just arguing my perspective (I'm sitting at home with Covid that I caught in NZ so I have a little bit more time to argue than usual), just as you and @mariner4life are arguing yours while ganging up on me.
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this is all a bit moot though anyway, the initial point was just about club rugby trying to be successful in its own right and not purely as a feeder for the international game, @Nepia is the only one that brought up players having to be rested...and then argued people wouldnt like it
lets just assume no one is being rested (because that wasn't part of the announcement) and move on
@Nepia said in Super Rugby 2024:
@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2024:
i think we HAVE to look at other sports....because there are very few successful rugby comps....and we are also talking about a huge overlap in market....so not looking at what
the same people are positively responding too in NRL....is just asking to keep failingWe're in a boom time for the Warriors, would anyone who's ever followed them not agree that the chances of there being a bust are close to 100%?
But, even if remove the Warriors hype and look at the market itself, league is a sport dominated by a single club comp with a dollar investment that NZ rugby can never match so trying to emulate it will likely end in failure.
Like it or not, NZ rugby's bread and butter is the international game. We can't create an NRL, we can't even create a Top 14, we are reliant on the ABs to bring in revenue.
thats quitter talk, i dont buy the we cant so lets not try....because the "cant" is subjective
rugby is an international game in ANZ because thats the way we've marketed it for the last 25 years and on top of that we've actively split the domestic game...and then chopped and changed it....none of that we cant at least look at changing
@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2024:
@Nepia is the only one that brought up players having to be rested
That's not strictly true, player rests were brought up with the announcement of the new SR CEO before my first post on this theme.
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@Nepia I'll admit, I'm not sure of your point anymore.
@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2024:
@Nepia I'll admit, I'm not sure of your point anymore.
Rugby isn't NRL.
I don't care if all the best players aren't playing every single week.
I like doughnuts. -
@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2024:
@Nepia is the only one that brought up players having to be rested
That's not strictly true, player rests were brought up with the announcement of the new SR CEO before my first post on this theme.
@Nepia ok, you didn't quote that thought you quoted my post about if we could be as successful as the NRL currently is it wouldn't be bad...so you can see my confusion
@Nepia said in Super Rugby 2024:
@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2024:
@Nepia I'll admit, I'm not sure of your point anymore.
Rugby isn't NRL.
and something doesnt have to be identical to learn form it
same geographic market and overlapping fan base should be enough for at least consideration
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@Winger said in Super Rugby 2024:
@nzzp said in Super Rugby 2024:
@Machpants said in Super Rugby 2024:
Finally!
Interesting to see how rests for international players get handled now
Agree. Super rugby has, in my view, huge potential. But not if it continues to be subservient to test rugby. This must be kicked into touch in some way
I just hope they have found someone great. Not just OK as they couldn't find someone who was super-duper.
https://super.rugby/sites/sanzar/cache/file/6FE13DF4-DCC4-42F1-8867F8C5DE4621BF_carouselimage.jpg
TBH, you've got league if you want club/franchise to dominate rather than tests.
Also, that face and added to his "marketing" background has me already feeling nervous.
@Nepia said in Super Rugby 2024:
@Winger said in Super Rugby 2024:
@nzzp said in Super Rugby 2024:
@Machpants said in Super Rugby 2024:
Finally!
Interesting to see how rests for international players get handled now
Agree. Super rugby has, in my view, huge potential. But not if it continues to be subservient to test rugby. This must be kicked into touch in some way
I just hope they have found someone great. Not just OK as they couldn't find someone who was super-duper.
https://super.rugby/sites/sanzar/cache/file/6FE13DF4-DCC4-42F1-8867F8C5DE4621BF_carouselimage.jpg
TBH, you've got league if you want club/franchise to dominate rather than tests.
Also, that face and added to his "marketing" background has me already feeling nervous.
I'm already resigned to this being a fizzer of an appointment. Does anyone know what ground-breaking implementations he was responsible for at Canterbury or the A-League? Have either of them substantially increased revenue or market share? Any fundamental changes to competition structures resulting in tangible benefits?
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@Nepia said in Super Rugby 2024:
@Winger said in Super Rugby 2024:
@nzzp said in Super Rugby 2024:
@Machpants said in Super Rugby 2024:
Finally!
Interesting to see how rests for international players get handled now
Agree. Super rugby has, in my view, huge potential. But not if it continues to be subservient to test rugby. This must be kicked into touch in some way
I just hope they have found someone great. Not just OK as they couldn't find someone who was super-duper.
https://super.rugby/sites/sanzar/cache/file/6FE13DF4-DCC4-42F1-8867F8C5DE4621BF_carouselimage.jpg
TBH, you've got league if you want club/franchise to dominate rather than tests.
Also, that face and added to his "marketing" background has me already feeling nervous.
I'm already resigned to this being a fizzer of an appointment. Does anyone know what ground-breaking implementations he was responsible for at Canterbury or the A-League? Have either of them substantially increased revenue or market share? Any fundamental changes to competition structures resulting in tangible benefits?
@antipodean no facts too support this but my feeling was A-League is growing in popularity, long term growth with new teams, maybe not huge crowds yet but passionate
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@Nepia ok, you didn't quote that thought you quoted my post about if we could be as successful as the NRL currently is it wouldn't be bad...so you can see my confusion
@Nepia said in Super Rugby 2024:
@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2024:
@Nepia I'll admit, I'm not sure of your point anymore.
Rugby isn't NRL.
and something doesnt have to be identical to learn form it
same geographic market and overlapping fan base should be enough for at least consideration
@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2024:
@Nepia ok, you didn't quote that thought you quoted my post about if we could be as successful as the NRL currently is it wouldn't be bad...so you can see my confusion
@Nepia said in Super Rugby 2024:
@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2024:
@Nepia I'll admit, I'm not sure of your point anymore.
Rugby isn't NRL.
and something doesnt have to be identical to learn form it
I was just replying to a similar comment from one of your earlier posts.
@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2024:
thats quitter talk, i dont buy the we cant so lets not try....because the "cant" is subjective
That's not what I'm saying, we can learn from other sports, but we're not going to be able to emulate them as much as we may want to.
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@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2024:
@Nepia ok, you didn't quote that thought you quoted my post about if we could be as successful as the NRL currently is it wouldn't be bad...so you can see my confusion
@Nepia said in Super Rugby 2024:
@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2024:
@Nepia I'll admit, I'm not sure of your point anymore.
Rugby isn't NRL.
and something doesnt have to be identical to learn form it
I was just replying to a similar comment from one of your earlier posts.
@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2024:
thats quitter talk, i dont buy the we cant so lets not try....because the "cant" is subjective
That's not what I'm saying, we can learn from other sports, but we're not going to be able to emulate them as much as we may want to.
@Nepia said in Super Rugby 2024:
as much as we may want to.
this, to me is the point. If you break it down, most don't actually want to. Mainly because change may negatively impact something they like now.
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@antipodean no facts too support this but my feeling was A-League is growing in popularity, long term growth with new teams, maybe not huge crowds yet but passionate
@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2024:
@antipodean no facts too support this but my feeling was A-League is growing in popularity, long term growth with new teams, maybe not huge crowds yet but passionate
Perhaps Super Rugby could do the same, moving on from just 12 teams up to 18..?
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@Nepia said in Super Rugby 2024:
as much as we may want to.
this, to me is the point. If you break it down, most don't actually want to. Mainly because change may negatively impact something they like now.
@mariner4life you're probably right, im just concerned that if you're not looking to grow...then your begging to actually fail....i dont think keeping the status quo is possible
@antipodean i think if its based on actual business cases like A-League rather than trying to force growth into new areas that show little interest, thats exactly what we should do
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@mariner4life you're probably right, im just concerned that if you're not looking to grow...then your begging to actually fail....i dont think keeping the status quo is possible
@antipodean i think if its based on actual business cases like A-League rather than trying to force growth into new areas that show little interest, thats exactly what we should do
@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2024:
@mariner4life you're probably right, im just concerned that if you're not looking to grow...then your begging to actually fail....i dont think keeping the status quo is possible
as long as the ABs continue to win more than they lose, and the kiwi teams keep winning Super rugby, then i don't think most will give a shit. And until the mythical explosion of basketball and league actually happens, i can't see that changing. so muddle along we will.
