All Blacks 2024
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Photo of the week: Ardie Savea playing club rugby for Ories on Saturday. Maybe if the Wellington player didn't tackle his own player they would have more of chance of stopping Savea.
Ories won this game 90-7
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@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@Machpants said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@pakman said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
As for tackle height, I'd venture that Chiefs coaches were more onto emphasising low hits than Blues.
Interestingly it was something highlighted by Hansen, so ABs also emphasize low tackle height. They look at how the international game is reffed, much harsher than SR, and low tackling is a key part of what they want. It may be that the Blues style of choke tackling to slow the opposition down hasn't helped their case with the ABs
That just says to me that they think they can't coach.
I highly doubt they think they can't coach.
It's the logical conclusion from the premise they're selecting players who played a certain way that they can't get players to adjust.
Logic to me is that no one gets to the top of their chosen field if they don't think they can do the job.
Someone spit in your coffee this morning or are you being deliberately obtuse?
Hopefully nobody spat in my coffee. Do you really think they believe they can't coach?
No, the hyperbole is that it would be a very odd reason to make certain selections: "They tackle low and that's how we want to play." Surely the best individuals in the best teams play a certain way because that's what they're instructed to do. I'm certain if Vern told the Blues that every tackle was to be a grass cutter, they'd have played that way.
The more I look at this Hoskins omission, the more unfathomable it becomes. Hansen's mealy mouth interview notwithstanding. I'd understand if they took another lock instead of Sititi. At least then you could say "we would've, but we needed a lock and hence he as a specialist 8 has to miss out. If Ardie gets injured he'll be called in."
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@Machpants said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@pakman said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
As for tackle height, I'd venture that Chiefs coaches were more onto emphasising low hits than Blues.
Interestingly it was something highlighted by Hansen, so ABs also emphasize low tackle height. They look at how the international game is reffed, much harsher than SR, and low tackling is a key part of what they want. It may be that the Blues style of choke tackling to slow the opposition down hasn't helped their case with the ABs
That just says to me that they think they can't coach.
I highly doubt they think they can't coach.
It's the logical conclusion from the premise they're selecting players who played a certain way that they can't get players to adjust.
Logic to me is that no one gets to the top of their chosen field if they don't think they can do the job.
Someone spit in your coffee this morning or are you being deliberately obtuse?
Hopefully nobody spat in my coffee. Do you really think they believe they can't coach?
No, the hyperbole is that it would be a very odd reason to make certain selections: "They tackle low and that's how we want to play." Surely the best individuals in the best teams play a certain way because that's what they're instructed to do. I'm certain if Vern told the Blues that every tackle was to be a grass cutter, they'd have played that way.
The more I look at this Hoskins omission, the more unfathomable it becomes. Hansen's mealy mouth interview notwithstanding. I'd understand if they took another lock instead of Sititi. At least then you could say "we would've, but we needed a lock and hence he as a specialist 8 has to miss out. If Ardie gets injured he'll be called in."
It's obviously pure speculation on all our parts but I too would have liked to have seen him selected. As an extension of what you originally typed maybe they don't think they can coach Sotutu to play a certain way, especially given the short time frame? I don't necessarily see that as a slight against either side.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@Machpants said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@pakman said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
As for tackle height, I'd venture that Chiefs coaches were more onto emphasising low hits than Blues.
Interestingly it was something highlighted by Hansen, so ABs also emphasize low tackle height. They look at how the international game is reffed, much harsher than SR, and low tackling is a key part of what they want. It may be that the Blues style of choke tackling to slow the opposition down hasn't helped their case with the ABs
That just says to me that they think they can't coach.
I highly doubt they think they can't coach.
It's the logical conclusion from the premise they're selecting players who played a certain way that they can't get players to adjust.
Logic to me is that no one gets to the top of their chosen field if they don't think they can do the job.
Someone spit in your coffee this morning or are you being deliberately obtuse?
Hopefully nobody spat in my coffee. Do you really think they believe they can't coach?
No, the hyperbole is that it would be a very odd reason to make certain selections: "They tackle low and that's how we want to play." Surely the best individuals in the best teams play a certain way because that's what they're instructed to do. I'm certain if Vern told the Blues that every tackle was to be a grass cutter, they'd have played that way.
The more I look at this Hoskins omission, the more unfathomable it becomes. Hansen's mealy mouth interview notwithstanding. I'd understand if they took another lock instead of Sititi. At least then you could say "we would've, but we needed a lock and hence he as a specialist 8 has to miss out. If Ardie gets injured he'll be called in."
One and a half weeks may not be long enough to change the things that have been hammered in during the entire SR season
@Machpants said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@Machpants said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@pakman said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
As for tackle height, I'd venture that Chiefs coaches were more onto emphasising low hits than Blues.
Interestingly it was something highlighted by Hansen, so ABs also emphasize low tackle height. They look at how the international game is reffed, much harsher than SR, and low tackling is a key part of what they want. It may be that the Blues style of choke tackling to slow the opposition down hasn't helped their case with the ABs
That just says to me that they think they can't coach.
I highly doubt they think they can't coach.
It's the logical conclusion from the premise they're selecting players who played a certain way that they can't get players to adjust.
Logic to me is that no one gets to the top of their chosen field if they don't think they can do the job.
Someone spit in your coffee this morning or are you being deliberately obtuse?
Hopefully nobody spat in my coffee. Do you really think they believe they can't coach?
No, the hyperbole is that it would be a very odd reason to make certain selections: "They tackle low and that's how we want to play." Surely the best individuals in the best teams play a certain way because that's what they're instructed to do. I'm certain if Vern told the Blues that every tackle was to be a grass cutter, they'd have played that way.
The more I look at this Hoskins omission, the more unfathomable it becomes. Hansen's mealy mouth interview notwithstanding. I'd understand if they took another lock instead of Sititi. At least then you could say "we would've, but we needed a lock and hence he as a specialist 8 has to miss out. If Ardie gets injured he'll be called in."
One and a half weeks may not be long enough to change the things that have been hammered in during the entire SR season
On the other hand, will they really contemplate throwing a debutant (Sititi) in the deep end vs England? I don't think he would start, but if someone goes down and he was on the bench, will they be comfortable with that outcome? Or is he a project that they feel would benefit with a little time in camp, with Blackadder or Paps on the bench as cover? If they saw Hoskins as someone who was close and needed to iron out a few things, surely he would best do that in camp also? So many questions
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@Frank said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
From Two Cents Rugby channel.
Hoskins scored way more tries and assists and good passing.
Sotutu is also better in turnovers.
Far less tackles than the others (though Jacobson shouldn't be in there because he was 7)Aligns with the comment on his work on both sides of the ball.
I think they think he shirks the defensive work.
According to this guy Blues made marginally less tackles than the Chiefs overall in the season. Can't vouch for his numbers.Blue line is tackles per game.(Sotutu lowest)
Orange line is missed tackles (Sotutu highest)
With Blues having 70% possession on occasion, straight tackles/match comparisons are bound to be misleading.
@pakman said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
With Blues having 70% possession on occasion, straight tackles/match comparisons are bound to be misleading.
That's what I thought too.
2 cents rugby said the Chiefs made only 2% more tackles than the Blues over the season. -
@pakman said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
With Blues having 70% possession on occasion, straight tackles/match comparisons are bound to be misleading.
That's what I thought too.
2 cents rugby said the Chiefs made only 2% more tackles than the Blues over the season.@Frank said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@pakman said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
With Blues having 70% possession on occasion, straight tackles/match comparisons are bound to be misleading.
That's what I thought too.
2 cents rugby said the Chiefs made only 2% more tackles than the Blues over the season.100%. A possession dominant pack's forwards make less tackles? Quelle surprise. Sometimes metrics don't mean what people think they mean. As much as I like us to have the ability to score from anywhere, the ability to keep possession for long periods, to control the field position and the clock can be a very good thing
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@Machpants said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@pakman said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
As for tackle height, I'd venture that Chiefs coaches were more onto emphasising low hits than Blues.
Interestingly it was something highlighted by Hansen, so ABs also emphasize low tackle height. They look at how the international game is reffed, much harsher than SR, and low tackling is a key part of what they want. It may be that the Blues style of choke tackling to slow the opposition down hasn't helped their case with the ABs
That just says to me that they think they can't coach.
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
That just says to me that they think they can't coach.
Or it was regarded as one of his work-ons and he hasn't improved it.
I'd say they are concerned about a lack of defensive abrasiveness / workrate.
Truth is, none of us know.
The implications being thrown around by some are spitting are deadset pathetic - Razor's a racist, Razor can't think separately from Ryan, Razor can't coach (7 Super titles lol)
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
That just says to me that they think they can't coach.
Or it was regarded as one of his work-ons and he hasn't improved it.
I'd say they are concerned about a lack of defensive abrasiveness / workrate.
Truth is, none of us know.
The implications being thrown around by some are spitting are deadset pathetic - Razor's a racist, Razor can't think separately from Ryan, Razor can't coach (7 Super titles lol)
@Frank said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
That just says to me that they think they can't coach.
Or it was regarded as one of his work-ons and he hasn't improved it.
I'd say they are concerned about a lack of defensive abrasiveness / workrate.
Truth is, none of us know.
The implications being thrown around by some are spitting are deadset pathetic - Razor's a racist, Razor can't think separately from Ryan, Razor can't coach (7 Super titles lol)
Based on his body of work, what his players from the teams he coaches say about him, the sky doco on telly at the moment, Razor seems like a simple straight up guy. He only has a limited number of places to fill and he's picked who he thinks can do the job. We will see how that turns out, it will be interesting to see how the year has gone looking back after the EOYT in terms of playing style, if he has altered his player group, and of course if he's won games and played well
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
That just says to me that they think they can't coach.
Or it was regarded as one of his work-ons and he hasn't improved it.
I'd say they are concerned about a lack of defensive abrasiveness / workrate.
Truth is, none of us know.
The implications being thrown around by some are spitting are deadset pathetic - Razor's a racist, Razor can't think separately from Ryan, Razor can't coach (7 Super titles lol)
@Frank said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
That just says to me that they think they can't coach.
Or it was regarded as one of his work-ons and he hasn't improved it.
I'd say they are concerned about a lack of defensive abrasiveness / workrate.
Anyone have comparative stats for "dominant tackles", or tackles that slow the ruck ball for the attackers? Questioning his work rate is laughable when looking at the stats - he's actively involved in both aspects of the game.
Truth is, none of us know.
No shit Frank, hence the conjecture.
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@Frank said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
That just says to me that they think they can't coach.
Or it was regarded as one of his work-ons and he hasn't improved it.
I'd say they are concerned about a lack of defensive abrasiveness / workrate.
Anyone have comparative stats for "dominant tackles", or tackles that slow the ruck ball for the attackers? Questioning his work rate is laughable when looking at the stats - he's actively involved in both aspects of the game.
Truth is, none of us know.
No shit Frank, hence the conjecture.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@Machpants said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@pakman said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
As for tackle height, I'd venture that Chiefs coaches were more onto emphasising low hits than Blues.
Interestingly it was something highlighted by Hansen, so ABs also emphasize low tackle height. They look at how the international game is reffed, much harsher than SR, and low tackling is a key part of what they want. It may be that the Blues style of choke tackling to slow the opposition down hasn't helped their case with the ABs
That just says to me that they think they can't coach.
I highly doubt they think they can't coach.
It's the logical conclusion from the premise they're selecting players who played a certain way that they can't get players to adjust.
Logic to me is that no one gets to the top of their chosen field if they don't think they can do the job.
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
Logic to me is that no one gets to the top of their chosen field if they don't think they can do the job.
Can we swap managers? Or are you referrring to the Dunning-Kruger effect?
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@pakman said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
With Blues having 70% possession on occasion, straight tackles/match comparisons are bound to be misleading.
That's what I thought too.
2 cents rugby said the Chiefs made only 2% more tackles than the Blues over the season.@Frank said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@pakman said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
With Blues having 70% possession on occasion, straight tackles/match comparisons are bound to be misleading.
That's what I thought too.
2 cents rugby said the Chiefs made only 2% more tackles than the Blues over the season.On the per 80mins stats it was 9% less. Blues defence numbers were unusual. The top 4 teams on the per 80mins tackles were the 4 other NZ sides.. Blues down in 8th
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@antipodean
They don't like something.
That's for sure.
I'm going to go full Dan here and say I trust their judgement because it is now two head coaches who have rejected him.@Frank said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@antipodean
They don't like something.
That's for sure.
I'm going to go full Dan here and say I trust their judgement because it is now two head coaches who have rejected him.The only disagreement I have with that is that both HCs are now in the same ABs coaching group. And yet Vern Cotter got the best out of Sotutu and Ioane, something Leon never could. (Which could be the pattern he played, or some relationship issue, or a rugby issue)
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As I remember Sotutu played most games for the blues.
Siti didn’t start until Rd7 and only had two 20 min cameos of the bench before RD7 so stats are a bit false in a lot of ways.@Chris said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
As I remember Sotutu played most games for the blues.
Siti didn’t start until Rd7 and only had two 20 min cameos of the bench before RD7 so stats are a bit false in a lot of ways.Yes per 80mins stats are normally useful but not in this situation
Sotutu played 80mins 12 times
Iose 4 times
Sititi onceAverage mins
Sotutu - 70mins
Iose - 56 (might be slighhtly off.. missing one game in the numbers)
Sititi - 47minsYou can't meaningfully compare per 80mins stats between someone who was actually playing 80mins and guys who were subs or left the field early. They don't have to deal with fatigue
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@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
It seems that Sotutu only being able to play no.8 has also counted against him. With Savea certain to start in that position versatility was important to the AB coaches.
i hope this isn't a huge facture.....very simply...Savea picks up a niggle and we dont have arguably the best 8 in the country available....see how quickly that approach falls over?
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
It seems that Sotutu only being able to play no.8 has also counted against him. With Savea certain to start in that position versatility was important to the AB coaches.
i hope this isn't a huge facture.....very simply...Savea picks up a niggle and we dont have arguably the best 8 in the country available....see how quickly that approach falls over?
I'm not saying that I agree with their selection choices, only that I think that was part of their reasoning for doing it. It also appears that Sititi's performance in the SF against the Canes cemented their decision. So much for picking the squad before the playoffs.
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@Frank said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@pakman said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
With Blues having 70% possession on occasion, straight tackles/match comparisons are bound to be misleading.
That's what I thought too.
2 cents rugby said the Chiefs made only 2% more tackles than the Blues over the season.On the per 80mins stats it was 9% less. Blues defence numbers were unusual. The top 4 teams on the per 80mins tackles were the 4 other NZ sides.. Blues down in 8th
@Duluth said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@Frank said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@pakman said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
With Blues having 70% possession on occasion, straight tackles/match comparisons are bound to be misleading.
That's what I thought too.
2 cents rugby said the Chiefs made only 2% more tackles than the Blues over the season.On the per 80mins stats it was 9% less. Blues defence numbers were unusual. The top 4 teams on the per 80mins tackles were the 4 other NZ sides.. Blues down in 8th
Your tackle count is lower when you never give up the ball...
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@Duluth said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@Frank said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@pakman said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
With Blues having 70% possession on occasion, straight tackles/match comparisons are bound to be misleading.
That's what I thought too.
2 cents rugby said the Chiefs made only 2% more tackles than the Blues over the season.On the per 80mins stats it was 9% less. Blues defence numbers were unusual. The top 4 teams on the per 80mins tackles were the 4 other NZ sides.. Blues down in 8th
Your tackle count is lower when you never give up the ball...
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@Duluth said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@Frank said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
@pakman said in All Blacks 2024 - selection:
With Blues having 70% possession on occasion, straight tackles/match comparisons are bound to be misleading.
That's what I thought too.
2 cents rugby said the Chiefs made only 2% more tackles than the Blues over the season.On the per 80mins stats it was 9% less. Blues defence numbers were unusual. The top 4 teams on the per 80mins tackles were the 4 other NZ sides.. Blues down in 8th
Your tackle count is lower when you never give up the ball...
Exactly here's the tackles stats from the final. The Chiefs were all unsuaully high. The Blues unusually low. But that's because the Blues pack anally raped them
This game also represents 10% of Sititi's season. Another reason per 80 stats aren't useful in this situation
If you turn these into per 80mins stats
Sotutu 5
Sititi ~27That's not an indication of more effort on defence. That is an indication of how the game went
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Did Savea actually want the job. Maybe he told Razor he didn’t want the pressure and so he went with Scooter.
Sotutu showing his true colours with his instagram post. Suck up your non selection and be better. You obviously didn’t listen to the work ons Razor gave you. He challenged you and now you’ve cried over your non selection. You’ve shown him he was right for not selecting you. Mentally weak@chchfanatic said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
Sotutu showing his true colours with his instagram post. Suck up your non selection and be better. You obviously didn’t listen to the work ons Razor gave you. He challenged you and now you’ve cried over your non selection. You’ve shown him he was right for not selecting you. Mentally weak
Ryan was on the radio this morning saying that the deciding factor was the semi-final where Sititi "put on a clinic" against the Hurricanes.
It's interesting that he uses a match Sotutu wasn't playing in to be the deciding factor but ignores the matches where Sotutu and his pack buried Sititi and his mates in the Eden Park turf. Twice. Including the final.
In fact, Ryan must be relieved he was able to find his wonder boy to tell him the good news because he didn't turn up to Eden Park on Saturday.
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I wonder whether we are looking at a 6-2 bench if Sititi is to see any time.
I think the plan will be to bring out a fresh lock, fresh 6, and fresh big running 8 (Ardie moving to 7) so we can get ball running later in the game.
If we stay with 5-2, A fresh lock (Pat T), Barrett to 6, 7 to replace Paps.
Here is the key question for me - where do they see Blackadder? His selection alongside Jacobson makes no sense. Both are better as 7s at the international level so with Paps there these selections really lead us to think the inbalance isn’t going to be addressed.
The selection of Tosi makes sense, we can see him and Williams is being set up as the ball running props - who either come on together or switch as needed (so this could break up the EDG / Lomax starting prop rotation if they go that way, EDG most under-threat there).
