All Blacks vs England 2
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@sparky said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@taniwharugby England didn't win a test in New Zealand but they are building nicely on and off the field. I think they are easily going to be in the top 4 or 5 sides in the world in the next few years and if they can sort out their scrum and improve their bench, the sky's the limit.
Pretty sure England was #5 after RWC and still is.
Sounds like some of the fern expected 20+point win with flawless execution...
@Mattasaurus I expected what we got. A tough series against one of the top sides in the world.
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@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@frugby The fern logic, the less you play, the higher you get rated.
Man, this forum is crazy. We're in a transition period and things will take time getting used to. Like yeah, players had indifferent nights, but if it were up to people on Here, we'd make about 13 changes a test just to get peoples favourites in. They're still finding their feet and getting used to things under a nee coaching system. It always seems to be the same parochial bias as well which clouds everyone's judgement.
Yes but people on here can be astute and see stuff that make a difference.
JB to mid field from wing took an eternity,
Ratima - DMac was always going to be
optimal.
Ioane in combo with the two current wings isn't setting the world on fire.
And it's obvious the loose forward combo isn't gelling.
At least try players out as in game replacementsJordie to midfield from wing? He last played wing in 2020? He was also a world class fullback too.
Yeah, we all called for Ratima to come on when he did (myself included) and h came and sped the game up against a tiring English side, just what was needed. He was gonna be bought on regardless, what's the big deal?
Reece and Telea? Yeah they had their bad moments, but some good moments too. The Cantabs on here are watching Telea like a hawk and are gonna criticise him for anything whilst defending their boys to no end which influences opinion, they didn't say anything however when Reece made mistakes. Both came through alright, pass marks at least.
The loose trio isn't working? It's their 2nd test together. Papali'i had a great test. Savea and Finau weren't poor, they were just ineffective. Maybe give them a but of time to gel before making wholesale changes. Sometimes playing in a new system takes time to adjust too.
@African-Monkey where is the Papali’i had a great test rhetoric coming from? The stats say he made 10 tackles, which is passable but a minimum really, and had 4 runs for 9 meters. Hardly great. The loose trio as a whole has been very disappointing over the two tests and changes are needed. Also at centre where Ioane making 4 tackles total, missing 2 of them and running for 15 meters, needs to go as well.
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Take out Scott, Jordie and Beauden we would have lost.
100%@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks vs England 2:
Take out Scott, Jordie and Beauden we would have lost.
100%So take out three key players of the night in any team and they would be far worse. That sort of how it always goes.
Take out Marcus Smith and England would have scored about 6 points! They were not getting anything against our front-on defence, which is a splendid improvement.
We played with a calmness that has been absent for much of the last few years. Even when behind, we didn't start throwing miracle balls or start chip-kicking constantly. We trusted our defence and -- Taylor aside -- didn't try to win balls at rucks that weren't there for the taking.
Some of the selections will take a while to sort out, but I am very pleased with the better mental side of things.
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@African-Monkey where is the Papali’i had a great test rhetoric coming from? The stats say he made 10 tackles, which is passable but a minimum really, and had 4 runs for 9 meters. Hardly great. The loose trio as a whole has been very disappointing over the two tests and changes are needed. Also at centre where Ioane making 4 tackles total, missing 2 of them and running for 15 meters, needs to go as well.
@Stag said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@African-Monkey where is the Papali’i had a great test rhetoric coming from? The stats say he made 10 tackles, which is passable but a minimum really, and had 4 runs for 9 meters. Hardly great. The loose trio as a whole has been very disappointing over the two tests and changes are needed. Also at centre where Ioane making 4 tackles total, missing 2 of them and running for 15 meters, needs to go as well.
Sometimes it's about what tackles you're making, not the total. He's made 25+ in games which has had no effect on games. If you're suggesting that quantity is more important than quality in terms of tackle numbers, lets just pick good ol' Tom Christie then. I agree, the loosies are out of sync, but I feel that continuity is needed there.
Rieko Ioane is the least of our problems currently. Why are we looking at his tackle stats? He didn't make any glaring misses out there. You clearly just don't like Blues players (which Crusaders fan does in fairness) if you're worrying about those 2 out of the whole thing.
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@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks vs England 2:
Take out Scott, Jordie and Beauden we would have lost.
100%So take out three key players of the night in any team and they would be far worse. That sort of how it always goes.
Take out Marcus Smith and England would have scored about 6 points! They were not getting anything against our front-on defence, which is a splendid improvement.
We played with a calmness that has been absent for much of the last few years. Even when behind, we didn't start throwing miracle balls or start chip-kicking constantly. We trusted our defence and -- Taylor aside -- didn't try to win balls at rucks that weren't there for the taking.
Some of the selections will take a while to sort out, but I am very pleased with the better mental side of things.
@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks vs England 2:
We played with a calmness that has been absent for much of the last few years.
We were anything but calm in the first 60 minutes. It was an error-strewn performance up with the worst of the the Ireland series.
And if the dual playmaker gambit and bringing BB on hadn't worked so well, the number of miracle passes would have been up with the number of crap AB lineouts.
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Many on here reminisce about the virtues of the great passers in days gone by.
Bruce Robertson, Conrad Smith, Tana Umaga spring to mind ...
There's no way we are going to dominate tier 1 nations in the next year or two in the forward battle.
Play to our strengths.
Ratima/ Roigard - DMac - JB are all quick of mind and foot. We need a centre that distributes well and quick wingers. -
@Daffy-Jaffy Steve Borthwick very impressive there. I thought his line about not putting limits on his team was a good one.
@sparky said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@Daffy-Jaffy Steve Borthwick very impressive there. I thought his line about not putting limits on his team was a good one.
He's fucking poke. Haha taken a team with potential to be in the top five, into the top five....maybe. All sorts of talent, under a steady regime and struggled to get parity against a team under a brand new coach for ten days that spilled eleventy million opportunities.I really don't get the fawning over Borthwick, it's bizarre, he's done sweet fuck all with the most resourced team in the world.
A top tier team would have put us to the sword with that amount of crucial errors.
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I have to say that I really thought that BB was past his sell by date. I just watched the game again and to say the he turned the game for us is an understatement. He may have lost a yard or 2 of pace but the game management when he came on was fantastic. I sound like a fan boy but at 60 I have been watching and playing rugby all my life and that performance from BB was special, one of the best that I have seen in recent times. Anyway enough said and fuck we need the experience players to step up and share their wealth. Hats off to Ratima also. Not bad for a first cap. I C a bright future. time for bed me thinks. Been up for quite a while watching here in North America. Roll on the Rugby Championship.
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Sotutu didn’t get selected because of his lack of ability on “both” sides of the ball….
So goodness knows how Telea stays in based on this…..some appalling defensive work from him.
@MN5 said in All Blacks vs England 2:
Sotutu didn’t get selected because of his lack of ability on “both” sides of the ball….
So goodness knows how Telea stays in based on this…..some appalling defensive work from him.
Easy answer: different selectors.
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@Machpants said in All Blacks vs England 2:
How awesome is it to have a coach that actually answers questions? Razor winning there I think
@Machpants said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@Machpants said in All Blacks vs England 2:
How awesome is it to have a coach that actually answers questions? Razor winning there I think
They both appeared a bit confused when the reporters started their questions with "Scott".
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@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks vs England 2:
We played with a calmness that has been absent for much of the last few years.
We were anything but calm in the first 60 minutes. It was an error-strewn performance up with the worst of the the Ireland series.
And if the dual playmaker gambit and bringing BB on hadn't worked so well, the number of miracle passes would have been up with the number of crap AB lineouts.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs England 2:
We were anything but calm in the first 60 minutes. It was an error-strewn performance up with the worst of the the Ireland series.
Our lineout was appalling, but other than that we were not "error strewn".
We didn't drop a lot of ball forward (including taking all the high kicks they put up). Our scrum was stable. We didn't give away heaps of penalties. We didn't miss heaps of tackles and they made almost no line breaks.
We took some wrong options, but no-one ever gets them all right. We didn't make many yards with the forwards, but that isn't an error.
Every test has errors because of the pressure they are under, but in the key areas of not dropping ball or dropping tackles we were much improved over the start of the last few years.
Some people on this forum seem to think that not only should the ABs be the best, that they should be perfect too.
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Why does Scott Barrett do that half-arsed chargedown attempt at every single oppo ruck box-clearance? I don't feel like he's got one since 1993 and it just leaves him late to the next phase
@voodoo said in All Blacks vs England 2:
Why does Scott Barrett do that half-arsed chargedown attempt at every single oppo ruck box-clearance? I don't feel like he's got one since 1993 and it just leaves him late to the next phase
Because he puts 100% into everything. He is the Richie McCaw of this team. Huge motor.
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As an aside, I think we need to scrap one of the following:
English version of our anthem
Maori version of our anthem
The HakaI love me a good haka, but after we've had 5 minutes of our 2 anthems it comes over as too much.
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As an aside, I think we need to scrap one of the following:
English version of our anthem
Maori version of our anthem
The HakaI love me a good haka, but after we've had 5 minutes of our 2 anthems it comes over as too much.
@taniwharugby I'm a fan of alternating English and Maori versions. Shortens it up nicely
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@African-Monkey where is the Papali’i had a great test rhetoric coming from? The stats say he made 10 tackles, which is passable but a minimum really, and had 4 runs for 9 meters. Hardly great. The loose trio as a whole has been very disappointing over the two tests and changes are needed. Also at centre where Ioane making 4 tackles total, missing 2 of them and running for 15 meters, needs to go as well.
@Stag said in All Blacks vs England 2:
Also at centre where Ioane making 4 tackles total, missing 2 of them and running for 15 meters, needs to go as well.
This can be misleading without looking at those 'miss' tackles especially with the way Rieko defends. Rieko uses his speed to fly up and across in defence which often forces the attack to get funnelled another way - it may count as a 'miss' but it's often deliberate and good defending
Having said that - I'm keen to see Proctor unleashed in test footy.
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@African-Monkey said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@frugby The fern logic, the less you play, the higher you get rated.
Man, this forum is crazy. We're in a transition period and things will take time getting used to. Like yeah, players had indifferent nights, but if it were up to people on Here, we'd make about 13 changes a test just to get peoples favourites in. They're still finding their feet and getting used to things under a nee coaching system. It always seems to be the same parochial bias as well which clouds everyone's judgement.
I hear what you say, but in the last 2-3 years the rules have been:
- If a player has a bad night or makes a mistake - blame the coach for selecting him
- If a team needs to find its feet - blame the coach for poor preparation
- If the ABs lose - blame the coach for not selecting the team the Fern wants
- If a selection doesn't come off - blame the coach for getting it wrong
- If a Fern selection doesn't come off - still blame the coach for getting it wrong
I think that's it...
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@frugby The fern logic, the less you play, the higher you get rated.
Man, this forum is crazy. We're in a transition period and things will take time getting used to. Like yeah, players had indifferent nights, but if it were up to people on Here, we'd make about 13 changes a test just to get peoples favourites in. They're still finding their feet and getting used to things under a nee coaching system. It always seems to be the same parochial bias as well which clouds everyone's judgement.
I hear what you say, but in the last 2-3 years the rules have been:
- If a player has a bad night or makes a mistake - blame the coach for selecting him
- If a team needs to find its feet - blame the coach for poor preparation
- If the ABs lose - blame the coach for not selecting the team the Fern wants
- If a selection doesn't come off - blame the coach for getting it wrong
- If a Fern selection doesn't come off - still blame the coach for getting it wrong
I think that's it...
At least one of the above hasn't happened.
You also forgot my fave - blame your least favourite Super side. Bonus points if the coach used to coach them... -
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@frugby The fern logic, the less you play, the higher you get rated.
Man, this forum is crazy. We're in a transition period and things will take time getting used to. Like yeah, players had indifferent nights, but if it were up to people on Here, we'd make about 13 changes a test just to get peoples favourites in. They're still finding their feet and getting used to things under a nee coaching system. It always seems to be the same parochial bias as well which clouds everyone's judgement.
I hear what you say, but in the last 2-3 years the rules have been:
- If a player has a bad night or makes a mistake - blame the coach for selecting him
- If a team needs to find its feet - blame the coach for poor preparation
- If the ABs lose - blame the coach for not selecting the team the Fern wants
- If a selection doesn't come off - blame the coach for getting it wrong
- If a Fern selection doesn't come off - still blame the coach for getting it wrong
I think that's it...
At least one of the above hasn't happened.
You also forgot my fave - blame your least favourite Super side. Bonus points if the coach used to coach them...@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@frugby The fern logic, the less you play, the higher you get rated.
Man, this forum is crazy. We're in a transition period and things will take time getting used to. Like yeah, players had indifferent nights, but if it were up to people on Here, we'd make about 13 changes a test just to get peoples favourites in. They're still finding their feet and getting used to things under a nee coaching system. It always seems to be the same parochial bias as well which clouds everyone's judgement.
I hear what you say, but in the last 2-3 years the rules have been:
- If a player has a bad night or makes a mistake - blame the coach for selecting him
- If a team needs to find its feet - blame the coach for poor preparation
- If the ABs lose - blame the coach for not selecting the team the Fern wants
- If a selection doesn't come off - blame the coach for getting it wrong
- If a Fern selection doesn't come off - still blame the coach for getting it wrong
I think that's it...
At least one of the above hasn't happened.
You also forgot my fave - blame your least favourite Super side. Bonus points if the coach used to coach them...This.
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@African-Monkey said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@frugby The fern logic, the less you play, the higher you get rated.
Man, this forum is crazy. We're in a transition period and things will take time getting used to. Like yeah, players had indifferent nights, but if it were up to people on Here, we'd make about 13 changes a test just to get peoples favourites in. They're still finding their feet and getting used to things under a nee coaching system. It always seems to be the same parochial bias as well which clouds everyone's judgement.
I hear what you say, but in the last 2-3 years the rules have been:
- If a player has a bad night or makes a mistake - blame the coach for selecting him
- If a team needs to find its feet - blame the coach for poor preparation
- If the ABs lose - blame the coach for not selecting the team the Fern wants
- If a selection doesn't come off - blame the coach for getting it wrong
- If a Fern selection doesn't come off - still blame the coach for getting it wrong
I think that's it...
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks vs England 2:
@frugby The fern logic, the less you play, the higher you get rated.
Man, this forum is crazy. We're in a transition period and things will take time getting used to. Like yeah, players had indifferent nights, but if it were up to people on Here, we'd make about 13 changes a test just to get peoples favourites in. They're still finding their feet and getting used to things under a nee coaching system. It always seems to be the same parochial bias as well which clouds everyone's judgement.
I hear what you say, but in the last 2-3 years the rules have been:
- If a player has a bad night or makes a mistake - blame the coach for selecting him
- If a team needs to find its feet - blame the coach for poor preparation
- If the ABs lose - blame the coach for not selecting the team the Fern wants
- If a selection doesn't come off - blame the coach for getting it wrong
- If a Fern selection doesn't come off - still blame the coach for getting it wrong
I think that's it...
There is some truth to that, but I also think there is some general acceptance that the issues the ABs have now are genuine personnel problems, which other than arguably the loose forwards, can't be fixed by just playing someone else.
I think other than those who like Sotutu, most would agree that last night's 23 is pretty close to the best one available (maybe barring Christie starting?) every other change would hardly make a major difference.
Foster on the other hand had our best-ever lock pairing, Smith and Mo'unga etc. and persisted with players who weren't performing on reputation.
