All Blacks 2024
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how is Savea everyone's hard on for 7 when the shit he is worst at are what we want from a 7?
@mariner4life because 7s are allowed to be short-arses who are shit in lineouts.
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So, after a tight England series, thoughts?
Props: Scrum good. Defense good. Lineout work not good. Carrying not good. Overall look to be in a pretty good place, but shit we do need some yards out of these blokes.
Hookers. Taylor has been pretty good around the track defensively, still loves a dumb breakdown penalty. But threw poorly. Aumua looked good off the bench but i am not ready to chuck him the keys yet. Not our worst spot.
Locks. SBarrett got shown on Saturday what a real world class lock looks like. He's a trier Scott, but he lacks that bit of class to help separate us from other teams. Patty T was picked to carry, and didn't do it too well. Lineout was a bit shit. Vaa'i has added a bit off the bench in both games, has come a long was since last year. As a unit again not bad without being world beaters, obviously scrumming well but need to suss the fucking lineout.
The tight 5 is the least of our worries it seems. Not dominant, but pretty handy.Loosies. Disjointed is the best word i can come up with. Papali'i had an okay test and a good test. He is what he is, and when he's on like Saturday he's an asset. Sure to start going forward. Savea is a problem. All his weaknesses are really highlighted when the youtube reel shit isn't there to compensate. Two very quiet games, definitely beaten by his opposite. Finau barely fired a shot. Definitely looks hesitant where at the level below he's flat out. Could be instructions or it could be that the game is too quick. Needs to find something and quick. The other options aren't tall enough. If Finau isn't going to carry and hit like in Super season then the whole trio is too weak. Jacobson came on and worked, like he does, but he's no differnece maker at this level. Big area of improvement.
Halfbacks. At expectation. We got what we knew we already had because they are not new. TJ is TJ and will always be TJ. Christie slows the game down and has an average pass. Ratima looked better just because he got the ball out quick and let us play. In my mind decisions to be made, but the coaches may value the experience in South Africa which means the rest of the team will suffer. If our plan is fast and wide, then playing shitty passing halfbacks is an enormous handbrake.
- DMac was what we thought. At the heart of everything good we do. Incredible at getting others in to space, or finding mismatches by drawing players. We're obviously trying to get him the ball in wide channels to use his pace (like how the Crusaders used Mo'unga). Kicked from hand pretty well, brought back the wipers as well. When we get bogged down he battles, and definitely looks worse with ropey ball from 9. Tough as fuck in defense as well.
Midfield. Should be settled, probably isn't. I see the sentiment on here is still "play Reiko on the wing, he can't distribute" even though that is never happening. Looks to me like they are being asked to play narrow and straight to try and give DMac space to loop them and get out wide. Problem is, neither of our midfield are actually great passers of the ball. Jordie passes late, and often very inaccurately, putting everyone under pressure. Reiko is not a natural either. I still think this is our best combination, JB can really carry in traffic, and Reiko has pace. They just need to work out the new system. Defensively they are adequate, but neither rock solid.
Wingers: okay i guess. Reece is a livewire, happy to pin his ears, happy to stick his head over the ball. Telea beats tacklers for fun, but lacks top end pace, and defensively is pretty suspect. I am not sure either should be feeling confident about their place going forward.
Fullbacks: Hand up, very wrong about both these blokes. Perofeta went way better than i thought. Still put himself under pressure unnecessarily at times, but should have set up a try in both games, and looked quite lively in attack. Obviously my "BB is cooked" aged like milk. Ok in the first, but with the same shit we have whinged about for years. The 2nd had a ropey kick, and that skill/luck double kick. But he came on and added a lot. He and DMac always look like they play well together. Two good options. When Jordan comes back he's a wing again?
I don't really see what the plan is except to use DMacs passing to outflank the rush, or to loop him and get him in the wider spaces. Carrying needs work as the English rush defence was sitting guys down as soon as they got the ball. The way the Irish set up their forward runners compared to ours is night and day different.
Defence looks okay, but England got plenty of joy when they put pace on the game, and we are still quite passive. It looked to me like a huge focus on legs tackles rather than dominant hits, which is a big departure from previous years.Great to win 2-0. The Fiji game you would think makes it 3-0 to start. Plenty to work on before a big game in the Republic.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024:
Halfbacks. If our plan is fast and wide, then playing shitty passing halfbacks is an enormous handbrake.
Midfield. Should be settled, probably isn't. I see the sentiment on here is still "play Reiko on the wing, he can't distribute" even though that is never happening. Looks to me like they are being asked to play narrow and straight to try and give DMac space to loop them and get out wide. Problem is, neither of our midfield are actually great passers of the ball. Jordie passes late, and often very inaccurately, putting everyone under pressure. Reiko is not a natural either. I still think this is our best combination, JB can really carry in traffic, and Reiko has pace. They just need to work out the new system. Defensively they are adequate, but neither rock solid.
I don't really see what the plan is except to use DMacs passing to outflank the rush, or to loop him and get him in the wider spaces. Carrying needs work as the English rush defence was sitting guys down as soon as they got the ball. The way the Irish set up their forward runners compared to ours is night and day different.
This is the crux of the backline problem. The plan is to use McKenzie's passing to beat the rush, or in the 2nd wave. And to use Jordie on the hit-up with Rieko off the shoulder.
None of it works if the halfback can't pass (and we can't get some momentum at the ruck). McKenzie can't outflank a rush defence that is already in our line when he gets the ball. Our midfielders don't have the hands to deal with ball and tackler at the same time. -
One thing that really annoys me with rugby is the idea that the bench role is 'lesser'.
Beauden's excellent displays off the bench should be seen as vindication for selecting him as a bench option not automatically meaning he has to start.
I think the likes of Ardie and Rieko could be excellent bench options but there's a stigma that they'll be 'dropped' to the bench.
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One thing that really annoys me with rugby is the idea that the bench role is 'lesser'.
Beauden's excellent displays off the bench should be seen as vindication for selecting him as a bench option not automatically meaning he has to start.
I think the likes of Ardie and Rieko could be excellent bench options but there's a stigma that they'll be 'dropped' to the bench.
@KiwiMurph 1 million times THIS ^^^^
other than MAYBE the front row then bench are different positions, theyre players that might be able to change a game or at least how a game is being played
with the Highlanders i often use to suggest starting coltman and having ash dixon on the bench even though Ash was clearly "better"...basically because coming to the end of a tight game an accurate lineout and lineout drive could change a game
its arguably better to have your best players on the pitch at the end
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it's not just rugby, every sport (well, sport media) sees the bench as a demotion. Even rotation sports like league and basketball.
But while i laugh at dumb shit like calling the bench "finishers" it's a valid point and a big part of modern elite rugby strategy.
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it's not just rugby, every sport (well, sport media) sees the bench as a demotion. Even rotation sports like league and basketball.
But while i laugh at dumb shit like calling the bench "finishers" it's a valid point and a big part of modern elite rugby strategy.
@mariner4life not sure i 100% agree....maybe 95%...but i know Wimbledon rotate through certain positions in football, sometimes start a taller but less skilled striker if the opposition isnt good in the air or sometimes just have a completely different style player on the bench so they can change things late, no point replacing like for like if youre loosing....so not completely to do with who is "better"
I also laugh at the poeple that get so worked up about what the bench players are called, like calling them finishes is one of the signs of the apocalypse...people went NUTS when they tried it wimbledon, calling for the manager to be sacked!
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soccer is different, way different. most of the starting team play all game. even the subbed player probably plays 80 minutes. And it's not that long since only 3 subs of the 11 (well 10) as opposed to 8 of 15.
In rugby the majority of the bench get big minutes.
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soccer is different, way different. most of the starting team play all game. even the subbed player probably plays 80 minutes. And it's not that long since only 3 subs of the 11 (well 10) as opposed to 8 of 15.
In rugby the majority of the bench get big minutes.
@mariner4life you did say "every sport"
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sees the bench as a demotion, yes
sorry, i didn't bother typing the rest as i thought it was implied "even though, for a lot of sports, it makes no fucking difference because you are getting huge game time, and the coach probably has a specific job for you"
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@Frank said in All Blacks 2024:
aaaah for the days of Nonu
he learned distribution too - he was not a natural at all. Started on the wing for the ABs I think -against Ireland in Ireland I think?
Incredible transformation; his monster miss on BOD in Hamilton had folk saying 'never again' for the ABs. Go figure.
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@Frank said in All Blacks 2024:
aaaah for the days of Nonu
he learned distribution too - he was not a natural at all. Started on the wing for the ABs I think -against Ireland in Ireland I think?
Incredible transformation; his monster miss on BOD in Hamilton had folk saying 'never again' for the ABs. Go figure.
Taking a guess I thought it was at 13 v England at the Cake Tin 2003 ... will now go google ...
Correct: http://stats.allblacks.com/asp/profile.asp?ABID=1033
But do think @nzzp is kind of correct as he fell out of favour and made the comeback on the EOYT in 2004 (I think)
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@Frank said in All Blacks 2024:
aaaah for the days of Nonu
he learned distribution too - he was not a natural at all. Started on the wing for the ABs I think -against Ireland in Ireland I think?
Incredible transformation; his monster miss on BOD in Hamilton had folk saying 'never again' for the ABs. Go figure.
Taking a guess I thought it was at 13 v England at the Cake Tin 2003 ... will now go google ...
Correct: http://stats.allblacks.com/asp/profile.asp?ABID=1033
But do think @nzzp is kind of correct as he fell out of favour and made the comeback on the EOYT in 2004 (I think)
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@Frank said in All Blacks 2024:
aaaah for the days of Nonu
he learned distribution too - he was not a natural at all. Started on the wing for the ABs I think -against Ireland in Ireland I think?
Incredible transformation; his monster miss on BOD in Hamilton had folk saying 'never again' for the ABs. Go figure.
Taking a guess I thought it was at 13 v England at the Cake Tin 2003 ... will now go google ...
Correct: http://stats.allblacks.com/asp/profile.asp?ABID=1033
But do think @nzzp is kind of correct as he fell out of favour and made the comeback on the EOYT in 2004 (I think)
@booboo said in All Blacks 2024:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@Frank said in All Blacks 2024:
aaaah for the days of Nonu
he learned distribution too - he was not a natural at all. Started on the wing for the ABs I think -against Ireland in Ireland I think?
Incredible transformation; his monster miss on BOD in Hamilton had folk saying 'never again' for the ABs. Go figure.
Taking a guess I thought it was at 13 v England at the Cake Tin 2003 ... will now go google ...
Correct: http://stats.allblacks.com/asp/profile.asp?ABID=1033
But do think @nzzp is kind of correct as he fell out of favour and made the comeback on the EOYT in 2004 (I think)
huh, I was sure it was Hamilton
Edit: ah you meant debut. For sure. But I remember that perforamnce - he got ripped apart defensively.
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@booboo thought his proper "comeback" was after 07? Tana was gone, the astonishingly talented Aaron Mauger was gone.
@Bones said in All Blacks 2024:
@booboo thought his proper "comeback" was after 07? Tana was gone, the astonishingly talented Aaron Mauger was gone.
Lucky Luke was gone. If Mauger and Lucky didn't go we might be talking about how Ma'a was an average AB but became a NH club legend.
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@booboo thought his proper "comeback" was after 07? Tana was gone, the astonishingly talented Aaron Mauger was gone.
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With Zach Gallagher coming to the Canes next year I wouldn't mind the Canes shifting Caleb Delany back to 6 where he helped the Lions win an NPC. Great carrier of the ball, awesome lineout jumper but probably needs to work on becoming more of a dominant tackler At 115kg and 197m, he could be an option for the ABs going forward after having a superb season at lock before injury struck.
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2024:
With Zach Gallagher coming to the Canes next year I wouldn't mind the Canes shifting Caleb Delany back to 6 where he helped the Lions win an NPC. Great carrier of the ball, awesome lineout jumper but probably needs to work on becoming more of a dominant tackler At 115kg and 197m, he could be an option for the ABs going forward after having a superb season at lock before injury struck.
Why not ?
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@booboo thought his proper "comeback" was after 07? Tana was gone, the astonishingly talented Aaron Mauger was gone.
@Bones said in All Blacks 2024:
@booboo thought his proper "comeback" was after 07? Tana was gone, the astonishingly talented Aaron Mauger was gone.
My recollection was around that time he started to come on as a sub and people were pleasantly surprised he didn't fuck things up and noticed he was adding to the game. Really took off in '08 and a year later he was pretty much the best 12 in the world. He really worked on developing his game and was utterly sublime in his last 2-3 years.
I think this year is make or break for Reiko in the sense we'll see if he can really develop as a 13.
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Akira Ioane was the obvious choice as he has all the attributes of a world class blindside loose forward. It's a shame Sotutu is an exclusive Nr.8. A trio formed with Sotutu (8) - Savea (7) and Papali'i (6) could be a stop gap.
@cgrant said in All Blacks 2024:
Akira Ioane was the obvious choice as he has all the attributes of a world class blindside loose forward. It's a shame Sotutu is an exclusive Nr.8. A trio formed with Sotutu (8) - Savea (7) and Papali'i (6) could be a stop gap.
I’m a fan of each of those players, but there’s no way our issues are resolved with that trio. I don’t think Sotutu and Savea together can be effective in what we are needing.
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@booboo said in All Blacks 2024:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@Frank said in All Blacks 2024:
aaaah for the days of Nonu
he learned distribution too - he was not a natural at all. Started on the wing for the ABs I think -against Ireland in Ireland I think?
Incredible transformation; his monster miss on BOD in Hamilton had folk saying 'never again' for the ABs. Go figure.
Taking a guess I thought it was at 13 v England at the Cake Tin 2003 ... will now go google ...
Correct: http://stats.allblacks.com/asp/profile.asp?ABID=1033
But do think @nzzp is kind of correct as he fell out of favour and made the comeback on the EOYT in 2004 (I think)
huh, I was sure it was Hamilton
Edit: ah you meant debut. For sure. But I remember that perforamnce - he got ripped apart defensively.
@nzzp I remember Nonu in 2007, well.
On the Fern, there was just me and a guy called Mojo who still thought he might be worth a shot in the 2007 RWC squad. And then he came off the bench on the wing against some team - and he was terrible.
Even me and Mojo had to concede he wasn't up to it.
Someone (and I can't recall who - in case they're still here) wrote, "Don't let the door hit your arse on the way out, Nonu"!
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@nzzp I remember Nonu in 2007, well.
On the Fern, there was just me and a guy called Mojo who still thought he might be worth a shot in the 2007 RWC squad. And then he came off the bench on the wing against some team - and he was terrible.
Even me and Mojo had to concede he wasn't up to it.
Someone (and I can't recall who - in case they're still here) wrote, "Don't let the door hit your arse on the way out, Nonu"!
@Chris-B I remember his talent in 05 - he shifted out to the wing (I think) but created an incredible try opportunity with a chip, regather, swerve and then knocked on over the line. But the pace, power and skill were incredible.
Then in 06 he shat the bed against Ireland defensively ... but man he came back strong from that.
What a player
Edit: the 05 reference was Ireland in Dublin
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@Chris-B I remember his talent in 05 - he shifted out to the wing (I think) but created an incredible try opportunity with a chip, regather, swerve and then knocked on over the line. But the pace, power and skill were incredible.
Then in 06 he shat the bed against Ireland defensively ... but man he came back strong from that.
What a player
Edit: the 05 reference was Ireland in Dublin
@nzzp It was a good lesson for me (and others) that people can get better - and sometimes a lot better.
I reckon Finau might be one like this. He's struggling a bit at the start, but he's got all the attributes to be really good in due course. Also looks like they could still add a few kgs to make him bigger and even better.
