All Blacks vs England 2

mariner4life

@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs England 2:

@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks vs England 2:

On the bright side a lineout is easier to fix than a scrum. We have a scrum

But very often a shit line out can be a momentum killer

See D Lake for Wales

I would rather have a ropey scrum than a fucked lineout.

BerniesCorner

A ropey scrum is a penalty magnet.

DaGrubster

@mariner4life

I would rather both were functioning competently.

The lineout completely killed any momentum we had in the 1st half and were the main reason for us going in behind at halftime.

Lineouts are best when simple, quick and varied.

It’s not as if the English lineout is incredibly tall.

taniwharugby

Most games now have more lineouts than scrums.

gt12

@taniwharugby said in All Blacks vs England 2:

Most games now have more lineouts than scrums.

And you can often get away with having a lesser scrum and still get FK / penalties as shown by the refs guessing after a few collapses.

Catogrande

@gt12 said in All Blacks vs England 2:

@taniwharugby said in All Blacks vs England 2:

Most games now have more lineouts than scrums.

And you can often get away with having a lesser scrum and still get FK / penalties as shown by the refs guessing after a few collapses.

Yep and also you cannot now re-scrum on a FK taking away the scrumming purely for a penalty option. A good idea IMO.

nostrildamus

Someone posted an interesting article on Itoje and in it the writer remarked how Scotty could have complained more about some of his lineout tactics. I'll have to go back and watch again.
The article got the height wrong (I don't think the English locks were much taller if at all, Itoje is definitely quick though) but it made an interesting point about the distinctions between 4 and 5 and how Patty and Scott are best in the same position.

ACT Crusader

Stats

Lineouts - NZ 10/13; Eng 18/20
Scrums - NZ 4/4; Eng 7/11
Tackles - NZ 127/143 (89%); Eng 119/148 (80%)
Penalties - NZ 6; Eng 11
Rucks won - NZ 68/68 (100%); Eng 83/87 (95%)

Catogrande

@ACT-Crusader

Watching the game I’d have thought the penalty count would have had a wider gap. Just goes to show how emotional you get watching

Darren

@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs England 2:

Stats

Lineouts - NZ 10/13; Eng 18/20
Scrums - NZ 4/4; Eng 7/11
Tackles - NZ 127/143 (89%); Eng 119/148 (80%)
Penalties - NZ 6; Eng 11
Rucks won - NZ 68/68 (100%); Eng 83/87 (95%)

We really won 10 out of 13 lineouts?
Seemed a lot worse during the game

Bones

@Darren said in All Blacks vs England 2:

@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs England 2:

Stats

Lineouts - NZ 10/13; Eng 18/20
Scrums - NZ 4/4; Eng 7/11
Tackles - NZ 127/143 (89%); Eng 119/148 (80%)
Penalties - NZ 6; Eng 11
Rucks won - NZ 68/68 (100%); Eng 83/87 (95%)

We really won 10 out of 13 lineouts?
Seemed a lot worse during the game

Yeah weird eh, thought the amount of scrums seemed lopsided too but I'm guessing the ABs tend to try and play out the advantage. Puts paid to the fact ABs didn't make many handling errors though.

Catogrande

@Darren I think it seemed worse in that some line-outs were technically won but were still piss-poor?

Bones

@Catogrande said in All Blacks vs England 2:

@Darren I think it seemed worse in that some line-outs were technically won but were still piss-poor?

Yeah at least a couple were disrupted still.

African Monkey

@Bones Tuipulotu getting taken out in the air by Itoje and Savea losing the ball trying to feed it to Christie in the first half come to mind.

Catogrande

@African-Monkey said in All Blacks vs England 2:

@Bones Tuipulotu falling on his arse ~~getting taken out in the air by Itoje~~ while Itoje looks on and Savea losing the ball trying to feed it to Christie in the first half come to mind.

Sorted.

Windows97

Work has very much unkindly got in the way of my posting however the main outputs of the game are.

For me that lack of ball carrying in the forwards is a massive concern, noone aside from Patty T and Amua (when he finally come on) were able to do anything. The other starting 7 appear to be duds.
I'm confused by the pod system we are using, from static ball our pods are standing deep and static and getting caught behind the advantage line (which doesn't help point 1 above). I don't know why the pods are deep from slow, static ball - we get no go forward at all.
If the forward pack is not going forward as per the above then Christie is not the HB for us, we need to speed up the game with quick ruck ball and that's not his strength.
Our bench won us the game, Ratima, BB, Amua and Vaai were all very good when they came on and maybe should have been put on earlier...
Exits are still bad and lineouts are still poor, go forward in the pack is still poor, we haven't really fixed any of our major problems from under Fozzie, nor does there seem hope of getting better?

Chester Draws

@Bones said in All Blacks vs England 2:

Yeah weird eh, thought the amount of scrums seemed lopsided too but I'm guessing the ABs tend to try and play out the advantage. Puts paid to the fact ABs didn't make many handling errors though.

Because you are being a c**k about this, I went back and watched.

As I said before, we gave away scrums in situations which were not turnovers. Dalton loosened a ball in a tackle on their possession. SB knocked on on their throw. Those are not turnovers. They don't really count as handling errors. Many of the scrums awarded to England were because our lineout wasn't functioning.

What is interesting is how few cold mistakes we made outside of the genuinely terrible lineout and Telea not able to prevent the cross-kick tries. Only a couple really. Anyway, we made as many errors in the second half as we did in the first anyway, so your idea that we were particularly bad in the first half is wrong.

Here is every mistake of the first half:

1:13 drove past ruck and lost ball.
2:33 JB throws terrible pass, which leads to knock on. Cold mistake.
5:15 Sevu Reece knocks on trying to pick up ball after Taylor throws ball at random rather than be caught with it. Was scrum, but had to risk it really.
7:40 Caught ball on top of lineout, but dropped it bringing it down.
13:30 England try. Telea out of position?
15:45 lost lineout.
17:00 won lineout but messy.
18:10 Perofeta throws pass to Telea rather than inside, but Telea should have not run out.
19:00 Christie caught with ball but under advantage so not lost ball.
21:10 Didn’t gather kick and let it roll out in 22.
21:50 Patty T wins lineout, but drops ball when sacked.
28:45 Sacked a lineout early and gave penalty.
29:30 knock-on at their lineout, so not a turnover.
30:50 knock-on in tackle on their possession, so not a turnover.
33:00 Taylor throws line-out straight to Itoje.
35:15 Didn’t field high kick in general play.
38:10 SB knocks on taking kick-off.
40:22 Taylor over-commits to ruck, they try cross-kick on advantage and Telea out-jumped and they score.

Chester Draws

Errors in the 2nd half.

40:50 Very poor chase off high kick.
42:15 JB tackles catcher early.
43:20 off side at ruck.
47:40 penalty because DP ruled to block cleaner. Very soft.
51:00 Telea muffs a kick after given ball in space.
51:30 DMc doesn’t field kick, then Reece kicks out in full after taking ball back into 22.
52:20 knock-on in the tackle. Scrum, but not a turnover.
52:30 Telea badly misses tackle.
52:10 Poor lineout, but won.
54:15 Savea loses ball in the tackle.
55:10 Free kick at scrum.
57:30 JB poor exit from scrum ball.
58:30 RI doesn’t pass wide when hot on attack and blows an overlap.
63:5 BB terrible cross-kick when hot on attack. Due to standing too deep when on attack?
65:55 BB knocks on after chip kick. Had to give a try with the line in sight. England got advantage.
68:50 JB slips when fielding kick-off.
70:25 Ratima knocks-on when own man driven on to him at ruck.
73:10 Catch ball in line-out which dropped, but get away with it for interference in the air.
75:10 Messy kick-off reception, but we get away with it.
76:40 Sevu Reese stood up. Terrible miss.
76:50 Penalty for contacting a man off the ball.
78:05 JB misses tackle badly.
78:25 Penalty for offside at ruck.

nzzp

@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks vs England 2:

38:10 SB knocks on taking kick-off.

this was a very expensive knockon

Chester Draws

We gave away 11 scrums. There was only a single ! advantage played for a scrum offence that I noted. That was because our defence was so strong that they couldn't use any of our mistakes.

Two of those scrums were us losing lineout ball we had won. Two were jolting ball free but not turnovers. One was lost on their lineout throw. By my count we had about 8 actual turnovers, of which a couple needed to be risked with a try in the offing.

In contrast they didn't give many scrums. Because we almost always used the turnover to our advantage when they dropped the ball in mid-field.

I didn't remember it, but actually our most error ridden periods were right at the end of both halves.

The Silver Fern

All Blacks vs England 2