All Blacks v Argentina II
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@Windows97 said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
It's interesting that Ethan de Groot's place hasn't been questioned at all.
He's an excellent scrummager - there's no question about that - but he still offers very little around the field. He's not one of the 'new breed' of props and without any scrums during his time on the field (which is admittedly a rare occurrence), he offered little on the park.
This is the major problem with our tight 5 - we either have technically proficent set piece players that are hopeless at carrying the ball, or good ball carrying players that are technically deficient in the set piece.
In our tight 5 on Saturday all good set piece players, useless at carrying the ball.
We then bring on our "impact bench" of guys who can carry the ball (excluding Newell who just does like for like) and our set piece goes to kak.
We seem to be stuck with a lot of one dimensional forwards atm.
I actually don’t think it’s our carriers so much. I think it’s more our attack that's the problem - we’re not putting any deception into how we attack. If you look at SA on the weekend - their attack often changed during a move - the outside support runner drifted off a number of times and then became an option once the ball was transferred out the back. The deception meant that the SA runners (already massive) were hitting weak shoulders, and engaging the defense on their terms. Contrast that with when NZ do it - and there is literally no deception at all and the Argentinian defenders were simply lapping it up. If you look at the Crusaders as a potential example of how Robertson likes to structure the attack - Mounga was always a threat - off the back of every pod and also linking with the outside pods/runners. I don’t see the same thing with McKenzie - at least it is completely obvious when the ball is going to him - the NZ unders/hard line runners don’t attract any defenders. In order for our carries to start getting over the gain line I think we need to re-align the attack so all runners are possible carriers, and get McKenzie (or Beaudie) as a genuine option in the support role of the forward pods. Right now the AB’s are easy to read and are getting double teamed on the tackle (or chopped and jackaled)
@darylmitchell said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
I actually don’t think it’s our carriers so much. I think it’s more our attack that's the problem - we’re not putting any deception into how we attack
The carriers are getting stopped on teh gain line all night. And we don't have many effective ball runners. FFS they asked Ardie to do that 19 times - that's ridiculous.
Deception helps, but at some point you need power carries with clarity. So much flat footed ball that we thought would disappear ... but it seems to be a tactic.
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@darylmitchell said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
I actually don’t think it’s our carriers so much. I think it’s more our attack that's the problem - we’re not putting any deception into how we attack
The carriers are getting stopped on teh gain line all night. And we don't have many effective ball runners. FFS they asked Ardie to do that 19 times - that's ridiculous.
Deception helps, but at some point you need power carries with clarity. So much flat footed ball that we thought would disappear ... but it seems to be a tactic.
@nzzp said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@darylmitchell said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
I actually don’t think it’s our carriers so much. I think it’s more our attack that's the problem - we’re not putting any deception into how we attack
The carriers are getting stopped on teh gain line all night. And we don't have many effective ball runners. FFS they asked Ardie to do that 19 times - that's ridiculous.
Deception helps, but at some point you need power carries with clarity. So much flat footed ball that we thought would disappear ... but it seems to be a tactic.
True, but also the backline is so lateral and is not asking any questions of the defense - maybe Razor should've got Tony Brown before the South African’s did.
It also seems that Jason Holland's strike moves are about as complex as 'Jordie cart it up the middle' off lineouts and scrums.
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Are we really missing Samisoni and Cam Roigard? ST generally got us go forward ball and CR adds that running dimension from the ruck as opposed to just shovelling it out to 10/12 with the D already in their faces. Also curious, would Shaun Stevenson make a difference? Big boot, not so great on D but adds another line breaking dimension we desperately need.
I wonder too, if its time we smacked some blokes within the first 5- 10 minutes to put them on notice. Jipper alluded to it, not to be niggley but to just take some names, let them know you're there and set your game platform from there. Do we have anyone in the side currently that can do it?
@LatsToTheMax said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Are we really missing Samisoni and Cam Roigard? ST generally got us go forward ball and CR adds that running dimension from the ruck as opposed to just shovelling it out to 10/12 with the D already in their faces. Also curious, would Shaun Stevenson make a difference? Big boot, not so great on D but adds another line breaking dimension we desperately need.
I wonder too, if its time we smacked some blokes within the first 5- 10 minutes to put them on notice. Jipper alluded to it, not to be niggley but to just take some names, let them know you're there and set your game platform from there. Do we have anyone in the side currently that can do it?
Aumua is just as good at this facet of the game as ST.
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@brodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Finau did enough against England to maintain his place.
Finau did nothing though in his 2 starts he was missing big time so if that is enough to keep your spot nothing, it is not going to get better.
Papali'i I haven't watched close enough to be honest but I will from now on as I don't remember him achieving a lot during the last test.
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@brodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Finau did enough against England to maintain his place.
Finau did nothing though in his 2 starts he was missing big time so if that is enough to keep your spot nothing, it is not going to get better.
Papali'i I haven't watched close enough to be honest but I will from now on as I don't remember him achieving a lot during the last test.
It will according to his legion of fans. He just needs a good first five to smash to get his confidence back.
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@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@brodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Finau did enough against England to maintain his place.
Finau did nothing though in his 2 starts he was missing big time so if that is enough to keep your spot nothing, it is not going to get better.
Papali'i I haven't watched close enough to be honest but I will from now on as I don't remember him achieving a lot during the last test.
It will according to his legion of fans. He just needs a good first five to smash to get his confidence back.
@MN5 said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@brodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Finau did enough against England to maintain his place.
Finau did nothing though in his 2 starts he was missing big time so if that is enough to keep your spot nothing, it is not going to get better.
Papali'i I haven't watched close enough to be honest but I will from now on as I don't remember him achieving a lot during the last test.
It will according to his legion of fans. He just needs a good first five to smash to get his confidence back.
sums it up well mate.
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@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@brodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Finau did enough against England to maintain his place.
Finau did nothing though in his 2 starts he was missing big time so if that is enough to keep your spot nothing, it is not going to get better.
Papali'i I haven't watched close enough to be honest but I will from now on as I don't remember him achieving a lot during the last test.
It will according to his legion of fans. He just needs a good first five to smash to get his confidence back.
@MN5 said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@brodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Finau did enough against England to maintain his place.
Finau did nothing though in his 2 starts he was missing big time so if that is enough to keep your spot nothing, it is not going to get better.
Papali'i I haven't watched close enough to be honest but I will from now on as I don't remember him achieving a lot during the last test.
It will according to his legion of fans. He just needs a good first five to smash to get his confidence back.
Jerome never got dropped or grew his game /sarc
Seriously though, players can get better. Nonu and Kaino were the pinnacle examples - but if the physical attributes are there you can add to them.
What's frustrating is the gameplan is hard to understand. Side to side shit gets eaten up. We aren't (or can't) playing a power forward game. We aren't stretching defences with pace or power in the backs. We're kind of fumbling around like a teenager in the back seat of a car, rather than having clarity about what's needed and what we're trying to achieve.
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@brodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Finau did enough against England to maintain his place.
Finau did nothing though in his 2 starts he was missing big time so if that is enough to keep your spot nothing, it is not going to get better.
Papali'i I haven't watched close enough to be honest but I will from now on as I don't remember him achieving a lot during the last test.
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@brodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Finau did enough against England to maintain his place.
Finau did nothing though in his 2 starts he was missing big time so if that is enough to keep your spot nothing, it is not going to get better.
Papali'i I haven't watched close enough to be honest but I will from now on as I don't remember him achieving a lot during the last test.
If you mean this as he's not going to get better then this is a silly comment. Lots of players take time to adjust to test rugby. Hell SI fan favourite Blackadder is still taking that time now 5 years into his test career - maybe he'll finally add effectiveness to his busyness.
If you don't mean that what exactly do you mean?
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@MN5 said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Still a but dynamic for my liking.
You might like to clarify this or some of the less generous might suggest you are pumping for more dynamic butts..
I’m not sure what you mean but I gave it an upvote anyway based on your history of good bants.
@MN5 said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Still a but dynamic for my liking.
Thank you for your generous spirit.
I meant, WTH does "Still a but dynamic for my liking" mean? -
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@brodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Finau did enough against England to maintain his place.
Finau did nothing though in his 2 starts he was missing big time so if that is enough to keep your spot nothing, it is not going to get better.
Papali'i I haven't watched close enough to be honest but I will from now on as I don't remember him achieving a lot during the last test.
If you mean this as he's not going to get better then this is a silly comment. Lots of players take time to adjust to test rugby. Hell SI fan favourite Blackadder is still taking that time now 5 years into his test career - maybe he'll finally add effectiveness to his busyness.
If you don't mean that what exactly do you mean?
@Nepia said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@brodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Finau did enough against England to maintain his place.
Finau did nothing though in his 2 starts he was missing big time so if that is enough to keep your spot nothing, it is not going to get better.
Papali'i I haven't watched close enough to be honest but I will from now on as I don't remember him achieving a lot during the last test.
If you mean this as he's not going to get better then this is a silly comment. Lots of players take time to adjust to test rugby. Hell SI fan favourite Blackadder is still taking that time now 5 years into his test career - maybe he'll finally add effectiveness to his busyness.
If you don't mean that what exactly do you mean?
A general comment that if players hold their spot for doing nothing it will not get better, performance levels will always stay at the same level targeted at everyone who does nothing if that is the selection criteria.
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@brodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Finau did enough against England to maintain his place.
Finau did nothing though in his 2 starts he was missing big time so if that is enough to keep your spot nothing, it is not going to get better.
Papali'i I haven't watched close enough to be honest but I will from now on as I don't remember him achieving a lot during the last test.
On what basis do you think he did nothing?
Finaus carry rate and tackle rate per 80 minutes were both in the top 3 for forwards and he hit rucks too.
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On what basis do you think he did nothing?
Finaus carry rate and tackle rate per 80 minutes were both in the top 3 for forwards and he hit rucks too.
@brodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
On what basis do you think he did nothing?
Finaus carry rate and tackle rate per 80 minutes were both in the top 3 for forwards and he hit rucks too.
For me he made no impact his tackles and clean outs were soft.
and I actually would love to see him hit beast mode we need a 6 who can.
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@Nepia said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@brodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Finau did enough against England to maintain his place.
Finau did nothing though in his 2 starts he was missing big time so if that is enough to keep your spot nothing, it is not going to get better.
Papali'i I haven't watched close enough to be honest but I will from now on as I don't remember him achieving a lot during the last test.
If you mean this as he's not going to get better then this is a silly comment. Lots of players take time to adjust to test rugby. Hell SI fan favourite Blackadder is still taking that time now 5 years into his test career - maybe he'll finally add effectiveness to his busyness.
If you don't mean that what exactly do you mean?
A general comment that if players hold their spot for doing nothing it will not get better, performance levels will always stay at the same level targeted at everyone who does nothing if that is the selection criteria.
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Nepia said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@brodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Finau did enough against England to maintain his place.
Finau did nothing though in his 2 starts he was missing big time so if that is enough to keep your spot nothing, it is not going to get better.
Papali'i I haven't watched close enough to be honest but I will from now on as I don't remember him achieving a lot during the last test.
If you mean this as he's not going to get better then this is a silly comment. Lots of players take time to adjust to test rugby. Hell SI fan favourite Blackadder is still taking that time now 5 years into his test career - maybe he'll finally add effectiveness to his busyness.
If you don't mean that what exactly do you mean?
A general comment that if players hold their spot for doing nothing it will not get better, performance levels will always stay at the same level targeted at everyone who does nothing if that is the selection criteria.
Oh you mean like a perm injured player who continually waltzes back into the side off minimal gametime? Then yes I agree.
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Finau doesn't have legions of fans, he is just the only player in the squad that has the physical attributes to succeed in the 6 jumper at test level. Akira should be the 6 this year, career best form and has shown he can do it in black in the past, but this group of coaches instead selected a bunch of loosies who are the same player bar Finau and a complete rookie. The problems at 6 right now fall squarely on this coaching groups shoulders for their squad selection, they are idiots for not selecting both Akira and Hoskins in this squad.
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@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Nepia said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@brodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Finau did enough against England to maintain his place.
Finau did nothing though in his 2 starts he was missing big time so if that is enough to keep your spot nothing, it is not going to get better.
Papali'i I haven't watched close enough to be honest but I will from now on as I don't remember him achieving a lot during the last test.
If you mean this as he's not going to get better then this is a silly comment. Lots of players take time to adjust to test rugby. Hell SI fan favourite Blackadder is still taking that time now 5 years into his test career - maybe he'll finally add effectiveness to his busyness.
If you don't mean that what exactly do you mean?
A general comment that if players hold their spot for doing nothing it will not get better, performance levels will always stay at the same level targeted at everyone who does nothing if that is the selection criteria.
Oh you mean like a perm injured player who continually waltzes back into the side off minimal gametime? Then yes I agree.
@Nepia said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Nepia said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@brodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Finau did enough against England to maintain his place.
Finau did nothing though in his 2 starts he was missing big time so if that is enough to keep your spot nothing, it is not going to get better.
Papali'i I haven't watched close enough to be honest but I will from now on as I don't remember him achieving a lot during the last test.
If you mean this as he's not going to get better then this is a silly comment. Lots of players take time to adjust to test rugby. Hell SI fan favourite Blackadder is still taking that time now 5 years into his test career - maybe he'll finally add effectiveness to his busyness.
If you don't mean that what exactly do you mean?
A general comment that if players hold their spot for doing nothing it will not get better, performance levels will always stay at the same level targeted at everyone who does nothing if that is the selection criteria.
Oh you mean like a perm injured player who continually waltzes back into the side off minimal gametime? Then yes I agree.
And that could be Sam Cane this week.
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@Nepia said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@brodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Finau did enough against England to maintain his place.
Finau did nothing though in his 2 starts he was missing big time so if that is enough to keep your spot nothing, it is not going to get better.
Papali'i I haven't watched close enough to be honest but I will from now on as I don't remember him achieving a lot during the last test.
If you mean this as he's not going to get better then this is a silly comment. Lots of players take time to adjust to test rugby. Hell SI fan favourite Blackadder is still taking that time now 5 years into his test career - maybe he'll finally add effectiveness to his busyness.
If you don't mean that what exactly do you mean?
A general comment that if players hold their spot for doing nothing it will not get better, performance levels will always stay at the same level targeted at everyone who does nothing if that is the selection criteria.
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Nepia said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@brodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Finau did enough against England to maintain his place.
Finau did nothing though in his 2 starts he was missing big time so if that is enough to keep your spot nothing, it is not going to get better.
Papali'i I haven't watched close enough to be honest but I will from now on as I don't remember him achieving a lot during the last test.
If you mean this as he's not going to get better then this is a silly comment. Lots of players take time to adjust to test rugby. Hell SI fan favourite Blackadder is still taking that time now 5 years into his test career - maybe he'll finally add effectiveness to his busyness.
If you don't mean that what exactly do you mean?
A general comment that if players hold their spot for doing nothing it will not get better, performance levels will always stay at the same level targeted at everyone who does nothing if that is the selection criteria.
Maybe what Razor has been saying about the players not following the coaches instructions is indicative of them not having trust in Holland and McDonald's attacking systems? Or the messages are not getting through because the coaching is poor - I couldn't see us being in this situation if Tony Brown was in their position.
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@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Nepia said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@brodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Finau did enough against England to maintain his place.
Finau did nothing though in his 2 starts he was missing big time so if that is enough to keep your spot nothing, it is not going to get better.
Papali'i I haven't watched close enough to be honest but I will from now on as I don't remember him achieving a lot during the last test.
If you mean this as he's not going to get better then this is a silly comment. Lots of players take time to adjust to test rugby. Hell SI fan favourite Blackadder is still taking that time now 5 years into his test career - maybe he'll finally add effectiveness to his busyness.
If you don't mean that what exactly do you mean?
A general comment that if players hold their spot for doing nothing it will not get better, performance levels will always stay at the same level targeted at everyone who does nothing if that is the selection criteria.
Maybe what Razor has been saying about the players not following the coaches instructions is indicative of them not having trust in Holland and McDonald's attacking systems? Or the messages are not getting through because the coaching is poor - I couldn't see us being in this situation if Tony Brown was in their position.
@darylmitchell said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Nepia said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@brodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Finau did enough against England to maintain his place.
Finau did nothing though in his 2 starts he was missing big time so if that is enough to keep your spot nothing, it is not going to get better.
Papali'i I haven't watched close enough to be honest but I will from now on as I don't remember him achieving a lot during the last test.
If you mean this as he's not going to get better then this is a silly comment. Lots of players take time to adjust to test rugby. Hell SI fan favourite Blackadder is still taking that time now 5 years into his test career - maybe he'll finally add effectiveness to his busyness.
If you don't mean that what exactly do you mean?
A general comment that if players hold their spot for doing nothing it will not get better, performance levels will always stay at the same level targeted at everyone who does nothing if that is the selection criteria.
Maybe what Razor has been saying about the players not following the coaches instructions is indicative of them not having trust in Holland and McDonald's attacking systems? or the messages are not getting through because coaching is poor - I couldn't see us being in this situation if if Tony Brown was here instead.
You could be dead right.
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Finau doesn't have legions of fans, he is just the only player in the squad that has the physical attributes to succeed in the 6 jumper at test level. Akira should be the 6 this year, career best form and has shown he can do it in black in the past, but this group of coaches instead selected a bunch of loosies who are the same player bar Finau and a complete rookie. The problems at 6 right now fall squarely on this coaching groups shoulders for their squad selection, they are idiots for not selecting both Akira and Hoskins in this squad.
Yeah I agree with this. Finau wasn't the best 6 in Super Rugby but he's the only long term option in the squad
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@Nepia said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Nepia said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@brodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Finau did enough against England to maintain his place.
Finau did nothing though in his 2 starts he was missing big time so if that is enough to keep your spot nothing, it is not going to get better.
Papali'i I haven't watched close enough to be honest but I will from now on as I don't remember him achieving a lot during the last test.
If you mean this as he's not going to get better then this is a silly comment. Lots of players take time to adjust to test rugby. Hell SI fan favourite Blackadder is still taking that time now 5 years into his test career - maybe he'll finally add effectiveness to his busyness.
If you don't mean that what exactly do you mean?
A general comment that if players hold their spot for doing nothing it will not get better, performance levels will always stay at the same level targeted at everyone who does nothing if that is the selection criteria.
Oh you mean like a perm injured player who continually waltzes back into the side off minimal gametime? Then yes I agree.
And that could be Sam Cane this week.
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Nepia said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Nepia said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@brodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Finau did enough against England to maintain his place.
Finau did nothing though in his 2 starts he was missing big time so if that is enough to keep your spot nothing, it is not going to get better.
Papali'i I haven't watched close enough to be honest but I will from now on as I don't remember him achieving a lot during the last test.
If you mean this as he's not going to get better then this is a silly comment. Lots of players take time to adjust to test rugby. Hell SI fan favourite Blackadder is still taking that time now 5 years into his test career - maybe he'll finally add effectiveness to his busyness.
If you don't mean that what exactly do you mean?
A general comment that if players hold their spot for doing nothing it will not get better, performance levels will always stay at the same level targeted at everyone who does nothing if that is the selection criteria.
Oh you mean like a perm injured player who continually waltzes back into the side off minimal gametime? Then yes I agree.
And that could be Sam Cane this week.
Hope so (if only to piss off @cantab79/Ali's Choice on PR) Well he has managed to get through 95 tests in his 10 year career so he might be slightly less perma injured ...
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@brodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
On what basis do you think he did nothing?
Finaus carry rate and tackle rate per 80 minutes were both in the top 3 for forwards and he hit rucks too.
For me he made no impact his tackles and clean outs were soft.
and I actually would love to see him hit beast mode we need a 6 who can.
I agree it was a workrate effort so it wasn't high impact.
He contributed to limit England's scoring and helped the ABs deliver more and faster ruck ball.
He didn't set the world on fire but it was enough to build on. He's a genuine athlete with a big ceiling with the right coaching.
Confidence will come with game time.
The lack of go forward at the moment from all the forwards is due to the lateral nature of the attack and the width.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@darylmitchell said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
I actually don’t think it’s our carriers so much. I think it’s more our attack that's the problem - we’re not putting any deception into how we attack
The carriers are getting stopped on teh gain line all night. And we don't have many effective ball runners. FFS they asked Ardie to do that 19 times - that's ridiculous.
Deception helps, but at some point you need power carries with clarity. So much flat footed ball that we thought would disappear ... but it seems to be a tactic.
True, but also the backline is so lateral and is not asking any questions of the defense - maybe Razor should've got Tony Brown before the South African’s did.
It also seems that Jason Holland's strike moves are about as complex as 'Jordie cart it up the middle' off lineouts and scrums.
@darylmitchell said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@nzzp said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@darylmitchell said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
I actually don’t think it’s our carriers so much. I think it’s more our attack that's the problem - we’re not putting any deception into how we attack
The carriers are getting stopped on teh gain line all night. And we don't have many effective ball runners. FFS they asked Ardie to do that 19 times - that's ridiculous.
Deception helps, but at some point you need power carries with clarity. So much flat footed ball that we thought would disappear ... but it seems to be a tactic.
True, but also the backline is so lateral and is not asking any questions of the defense - maybe Razor should've got Tony Brown before the South African’s did.
It also seems that Jason Holland's strike moves are about as complex as 'Jordie cart it up the middle' off lineouts and scrums.
It's not just the backline. A number of other nations look better coached and better structured than we do (and have done for about ~seven years).
I don't think we have the clear distinction of better skills under pressure to rely on anymore.
When was the last time we saw something other than the split pod at lineout time to a runner barrelling through unscathed?
