All Blacks v Argentina II
-
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@kpkanz said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@kpkanz I think it's quite clear I'm not dying on any hill. Keep up the ranting though, I'm so triggered I've come out the other side and finding it hilarious.
Still haven't provided a single counter.
All the best
I will confess to not watching this one as closely as usual as I had other stuff going on, but I would be wary of using stats as the be all and end all for someone's performance. They can be a good indicator, but they can also be very dependent on the role a player is asked to play, and whether play goes their way as a result. I would also hesitate to sing the praises of the subs given we lost our shape when they came on.
I can also guarantee you opposition players would rather defend against the much slower ALB than Rieko who can burn you in the blink of an eye.
I agree regarding the use of stats, I did ask if there were other intangible metrics outside of the stats provided but was not given any as I was interested.
I also don't know if I agree with that last paragraph. As ive posted previously, this year ALB has vastly outperformed Rieko in all offensive stats, and if you just look at comparisons of their carries on the field you can see that.
I would say defenders are much more worried about ALB on current form.
-
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
There's also a lot to be said for having multiple genuine try scoring threats on the park, which is why I liked this team as Rieko, Clarke and Jordan can all score tries out of nowhere if the defense is not 100% on their game. For me, Rieko has to be on the field, and he's played well enough at 13 to be the incumbent there, with the added bonus of the constant threat he poses defenses.
This is only true if he was posing a constant threat. But right now he's not.
He has consistently been our most ineffective back on attack this year.
I genuinely think people may be surprised how quickly Rieko may be usurped as starting center soon. It would not surprise me to see ALB as the starting midfielder in South Africa.
You only have to look at what Robertson has said and done recently.
When asked why he brought Rieko back for the last test he commented along the lines "..he gets an opportunity now".
You don't say that for a first team guaranteed starter. You say that for players currently in direct competition fighting for a spot.
Even after the game he commented how he was happy they got some time to look at Rieko on the left wing.
Speculation here, but looks like they want to find a way to keep him in the team or get some performance out of him again. Perhaps are thinking going back to wing may do it as he's not doing enough at center currently.
-
-
@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
I only have the eye test, but I remain unconvinced that ALB has the wheels or the physicality to foot it with the stronger teams. Rieko has his negatives, but he has X factor has shown he can do most of his core jobs reasonably well at 13
We can agree to disagree as I can't debate the differences in the eye test we are both seeing.
But as I said, I believe if his current form continues he won't be the starting center much longer with this new coaching team.
-
@kpkanz said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
I only have the eye test, but I remain unconvinced that ALB has the wheels or the physicality to foot it with the stronger teams. Rieko has his negatives, but he has X factor has shown he can do most of his core jobs reasonably well at 13
We can agree to disagree as I can't debate the differences in the eye test we are both seeing.
But as I said, I believe if his current form continues he won't be the starting center much longer with this new coaching team.
It's Proctor who should be pushing Rieko for his spot not ALB. That's where Razor needs to take a bit of a risk eventually.
-
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
But as I said, I believe if his current form continues he won't be the starting center much longer with this new coaching team.
It's Proctor who should be pushing Rieko for his spot not ALB. That's where Razor needs to take a bit of a risk eventually.
ALB looked good at 12 for me.
-
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@LatsToTheMax said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@LatsToTheMax said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@LatsToTheMax said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@sparky said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
- It was high.
- There was some head contact.
How is a tackle in the ribs high? There’s head contact when the ball carrier hinges horizontal into contact. If that is yellow, then you have to PK every time a bloke drops his head running at the line.
I think you have to look at the way the tackle is ruled these days to see your argument is false. Aumua was too upright, and there is head to head contact along with the impact from the tackle to the body. You can't get away with that most of the time, as a general rule this is nothing new for the last couple of years. Of course there have been the odd incident that has been let go (Kolisi on Ardie, Porter on BBBR) for reasons I can't understand.
Completely disagree. He smacks him fair in the ribs. The head clash was purely accidental.
That is rarely a consideration in rugby these days. In league it definitely comes into play more.
This is all split second stuff, but Aumua entered that tackle on an angle that he needed to have a lower body height.
The below is right before impact. His shoulder needed to be lower to get him in the ribs and then not run the risk of head contact.
Aumua is crouching and lower than the Argie.
That’s because he’s Gimli…
His lead shoulder is too high still hence why the head contact occurred.
I can understand this and the automatic yellow but it also seems to me the Argie ran into him-what rule protects the tackler from unnecessary injury?
So now it's shoulder high tackles? If that's the case then the Springboks should have been down to 2 blokes in the RWC Final.
-
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@LatsToTheMax said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@LatsToTheMax said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@LatsToTheMax said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@sparky said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
- It was high.
- There was some head contact.
How is a tackle in the ribs high? There’s head contact when the ball carrier hinges horizontal into contact. If that is yellow, then you have to PK every time a bloke drops his head running at the line.
I think you have to look at the way the tackle is ruled these days to see your argument is false. Aumua was too upright, and there is head to head contact along with the impact from the tackle to the body. You can't get away with that most of the time, as a general rule this is nothing new for the last couple of years. Of course there have been the odd incident that has been let go (Kolisi on Ardie, Porter on BBBR) for reasons I can't understand.
Completely disagree. He smacks him fair in the ribs. The head clash was purely accidental.
That is rarely a consideration in rugby these days. In league it definitely comes into play more.
This is all split second stuff, but Aumua entered that tackle on an angle that he needed to have a lower body height.
The below is right before impact. His shoulder needed to be lower to get him in the ribs and then not run the risk of head contact.
Aumua is crouching and lower than the Argie.
That’s because he’s Gimli…
His lead shoulder is too high still hence why the head contact occurred.
I can understand this and the automatic yellow but it also seems to me the Argie ran into him-what rule protects the tackler from unnecessary injury?
It's an attacker's game. The defender is almost always in the wrong. Remember Ethan getting rag dolled in the last test and getting penalised for a high shoulder?
I get that. But, and I go back to Retallick's fractured cheekbone, sometimes the tackler runs into them and all they can do is react. But no, I don't have a solution.
Actually the solution is quite simple. Head knocks happen. Always has and always will. Deliberately going for a blokes head is a card. No drama. What we have at the moment is mostly accidental and consequential. Foul play is when you run your boots over a prone oaks face or eye gauge or SBW on Teddy Tomas.
-
@LatsToTheMax or remain too upright knowing it's likely you're going to get a good shot on the other blokes cheek/chin with the top of your head and make it look "accidental".
-
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@LatsToTheMax or remain too upright knowing it's likely you're going to get a good shot on the other bloke's cheek/chin with the top of your head and make it look "accidental".
He's half his effing body height when he hits the bloke in his ribs and shoulder. Do you want Aumua to drop to his knees? There is absolutely nothing wrong with his tackle. The laws are flawed. How in the hell you think he intentionally clobbered him in the head is ridiculous is mind boggling.
In fact, if you watch the video again, Aumua is shouldered right in the chest.
-
@LatsToTheMax I didn't say he intentionally "clobbered" him.
But yeah, half his body height he is, I never even realised Aumua was close to 3m tall. Fuck knows why he's not being looked at for the second row.
-
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@LatsToTheMax I didn't say he intentionally "clobbered" him.
But yeah, half his body height he is, I never even realised Aumua was close to 3m tall. Fuck knows why he's not being looked at for the second row.
It was implied with your "..."
-
@kpkanz I am not opposed to Rieko playing on the wing, and moving him there in the final 20 is not the worst idea to give him more space when defenses are tiring. The fact he can play both centre and wing to such a high level makes him an extremely valuable player. I honestly don't know what this coaching group will do though, but they really should be able to take a player like Rieko and make the most of his talents, they aren't really worth their salt as coaches if they can't.
I also think ALBs form is being a bit overstated. It's great to see him playing well again after a string of injuries, but his best game was against a very poor Fijian team that any of our backs were going to look great against. He's a fantastic bench option as he an cover 12 and 13 to a high level, but I don't think he's demanding a starting spot just yet.
-
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
I also think ALBs form is being a bit overstated. It's great to see him playing well again after a string of injuries, but his best game was against a very poor Fijian team that any of our backs were going to look great against.
ALB was up there with Havili as one of the most overrated players in NZ for me, at least of the Fozzie years, 2020-2023.
This year was honestly the first time he's had a great Super Rugby season since 2019, he's been a bit of a passive passenger and non attacking presence at All Black level since his peak years of 2016-2019. Injuries played it's part and impacted on consistency.
I still think he's lived far too much off his 2016-2019 reputation in the media, because he never really kicked on post-Hansen years and he's currently 29.
-
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@kpkanz I am not opposed to Rieko playing on the wing, and moving him there in the final 20 is not the worst idea to give him more space when defenses are tiring. The fact he can play both centre and wing to such a high level makes him an extremely valuable player. I honestly don't know what this coaching group will do though, but they really should be able to take a player like Rieko and make the most of his talents, they aren't really worth their salt as coaches if they can't.
A game against SA with Proctor on the bench could be an opportunity to give him time against a Tier 1 opponent.
Then perhaps an entire game against Oz.
That should give us a clear indication of relative strengths and our depth.
-
I believe Razor will be circumspect of experimentation after the first loss this year against Argentina. You can tell that hurt a lot.
He brings back the experienced guy in the midfield and suddenly the defense is a lot more organised and we're completing 92% of our tackles.
-
Your assessment of ALB is unfortunately accurate.
I do think its important to consider that ALB was primarily at 12 during the Hansen era and Foster moved him to 13 after Razor had been playing Goodhue at 12. He also struggled with injury a lot during the Foster era which makes it difficult to get any momentum.
That said I agree with others that he struggles for pace and physicality against the big teams.
Its possible that could be the same case for Proctor who also gets injured a lot.
The thing with Rieko is he's very durable and he isn't going to struggle against anyone for size or pace.
-
@brodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Your assessment of ALB is unfortunately accurate.
I do think its important to consider that ALB was primarily at 12 during the Hansen era and Foster moved him to 13 after Razor had been playing Goodhue at 12. He also struggled with injury a lot during the Foster era which makes it difficult to get any momentum.
That said I agree with others that he struggles for pace and physicality against the big teams.
Its possible that could be the same case for Proctor who also gets injured a lot.
The thing with Rieko is he's very durable and he isn't going to struggle against anyone for size or pace.
Proctor doesn't get injured alot, I don't recall him being injured in the last two seasons apart from when he hurt his ribs in the semi final against the Chiefs. The Umaga-Jensen twins on the other hand.
