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@Mr-Fish thanks, and I completely agree that the commentary about this both in mainstream media and social media has been really diabolical, and I do have sympathy for the fighters in question. This should have been sorted out well before they became professionals.
A particular frustration I have with the reporting of the case is that they don't talk about any of the facts at all, finding articles that even mention chromosomes is challenging when that is at the heart of the issue! It's honestly like the media are trying to obfuscate the issue as much as possible, it's not difficult for reporters to do a bit of research before putting pen to paper.
I will say though, the "Michael Phelps" argument is extremely disingenuous, pushed forward by people that should know better (not including you there). I've posted about that on this very thread earlier on, relating to Laurel Hubbard at the time. In fact it's probably easier to quote myself again so here that is:
I strongly dislike this argument. I don't think you have bad intentions, in fact quite the opposite, but this is really misleading.
Of course there is variation within the sexes, that's why I'm not an All Black, could never play pro basketball or be a top weight lifter. There's even overlap between the sexes - Serena Williams would smoke plenty of male tennis players for example.
But we're not talking about matching up the weakest men against the strongest women here. We're talking about professional sports - the strongest men vs the strongest women. Here there is no overlap at all. None. Nada. Nil. The strongest woman is not even in the same stratosphere as the strongest man. Serena got smoked by an alcoholic male that was outside the top 200 and in poor physical condition. She could barely get a point off him. It was laughable and her bold "I want to play against the men" statements evaporated.
And so we have Hubbard. A male that would never get even close to the top of his field transitioning to female later in life, past the peak of an athlete, and immediately shooting straight to the top of the female division. That's seriously not fair on women that have slogged their guts out and are at the peak of their career age wise with a small window for winning a medal. It makes a farce of women's sports which have come such a long way in recent times to be taken seriously.
I just can't believe this is even up for debate let alone actually happening, and I'm utterly ashamed that NZ is sending a biological male to compete against women that have trained their whole lives for this moment.
This post was about trans women at the time, but the same principle applies to males with DSD, they have an unfair advantage and so should either be competing in the men's/open category, or, they can pursue something else in life. Competing professionally is not a "right", it's something only very few people are able to do, if they are not good enough to compete in the correct category then honestly, tough shit, join the rest of us.
And lastly, I agree with you that it is up to the IOC (and other sporting bodies) to set clear rules so that everyone knows what the criteria is moving forward. A very clear and easy to understand rule is that if you are born with XY chromosomes, then you will have gone through puberty with male typical levels of testosterone, so that excludes you from competing in the protected women's category. Clear, easy to understand, can be confirmed with a simple test early on, and would avoid all of this controversy.
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@No-Quarter said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
This post was about trans women at the time, but the same principle applies to males with DSD, they have an unfair advantage and so should either be competing in the men's/open category, or, they can pursue something else in life. Competing professionally is not a "right", it's something only very few people are able to do, if they are not good enough to compete in the correct category then honestly, tough shit, join the rest of us.
Agreed. A right to participate in sport is neither a right to compete at the highest level, nor is it a right to infringe on another's.
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Emma Hilton and Ross Tucker have summed up the situation nicely. Emma in particular has laid out the workflow that should be followed when deciding whether someone should be excluded from competing in the female category:
XY
AND
testes
AND
Testosterone production from testes
AND
Functional testosterone receptors
AND
Functional response to testosteroneEssentially as Tucker argues, a sex test should be the starting point for investigation, simple cheek swab identifies XY, it should be regarded as a screen. XX, automatically qualify for female category, XY requires further testing to establish the above from Hilton.
The last time female athletes were polled, over 80% supported sex screening, I bet that is higher now. So why the IOC keep repeating the line that ‘no one wants to go back to sex testing’ is beyond me. Women do.
The condition that Semenya had is v likely the same as these two boxers, internal testes with male testosterone production. People keep talking about Swyers, however that is apparently vanishingly rare and has never been observed in female athletes, where as the 5ARD is sought after in sport and therefore more likely.
I don’t like the fact this has become about the two individual boxers, this is a systemic failure on the part of the IOC for not acting on the test results when initially provided. The fact that they’re happy to rely on passports in a sport which is literally life threatening is disgusting. Men hit c162% harder than the same weight woman, this is a safety and governance issue. That said, once the results of those tests became known by the athletes and they chose not to appeal, they became complicit in dangerous cheating.
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So do you think this is all a power play between the IOC and the IBA?
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Of sorts, I think this is an ideological position from the IOC that the individual sports federations have gradually disagreed with as they’ve understood the risk / lack of fairness of males appearing in women’s categories in their sports over the years. Because the IOC control the boxing with no external federation running it they’ve imposed their own desire for inclusion over fairness / safety. I imagine the IBA are pissed off at the IOC for having been displaced, and have taken this as an opportunity to get their own back.
Ultimately I don’t care about the motivation of the IBA, this debacle can only be laid at the feet of an ideologically captured IOC
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@Dodge Emma Hilton is fantastic, I know she advised the RFU on this and they stopped biological males competing in women's rugby as a result due to the obvious safety concerns. The IOC and other sporting bodies would do well to do the same.
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This article is just such a great example of how bad the media are.
"Boxer Imane Khelif advances to gold medal bout at Paris Olympics with another victory amid gender misconceptions"
"Carini’s abandonment of the fight led to comments from the likes of former U.S. President Donald Trump, “Harry Potter” writer J.K. Rowling and others falsely claiming Khelif was a man or transgender."
And yet, not a single sentence in that article either confirming or denying that she has XY chromosomes. That isn't reporting, that's an ideologically captured "journalist" writing an opinion piece with zero evidence and presenting it as fact.
Just when I thought I couldn't despise these media outlets any more they sink to new lows.
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@taniwharugby Insane. And the female politicians who aren't kicking up a stink about this are cowards.
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@taniwharugby said in Stupid shit you see on the internet:
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c07ev1v7r4po
Well that's crap
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@taniwharugby said in Stupid shit you see on the internet:
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c07ev1v7r4po
You fucking idiots Australia
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The whole thing is so absurd now. Discrimination based on sex is something that has to occur in some parts of life due to the differences between men and women. I can't believe they are rolling back protections for women, we are just regressing with shit like this.
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Oh, and I'll say the quiet part out loud - rulings like this are forcing women to participate in some men's fetish/fantasy.
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@voodoo said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
Makes me so angry. And embarrassed to be a man to see this bloke pull this shit.
What a cnt of a man he is
It’s the many catering to the ‘needs’ of the few
( what he actually needs is to be locked up, studied and experimented on )
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@No-Quarter said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
Oh, and I'll say the quiet part out loud - rulings like this are forcing women to participate in some men's fetish/fantasy.
This should not be the quiet part.
It's one of the major reasons It's wrong.
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@booboo said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@No-Quarter said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
Oh, and I'll say the quiet part out loud - rulings like this are forcing women to participate in some men's fetish/fantasy.
This should not be the quiet part.
It's one of the major reasons it (the whole ideology around gender woo - there are others) is wrong.
Transgender debate, in sport, in general
