Springboks vs All Blacks I
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@gt12 said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
I can't believe it, the breakdown finally provides some actual data and some good points. Stopped clocks and all that, but Goldie is right, there is no reason for us to carry a winger on the bench when we could load up with another loosie or lock. I guess the counter point is that our back-ups aren't good enough, but we could get fresh legs out there while we still have 1st 5 cover with Dmac and Barrett. Seems a strange call by the coaches.
It's pretty strange when they make a big thing about having utility value in players and then use it in all the wrong ways. Like, it seems they couldn't get it more wrong every time they sub or even name a bench?
Someone is gonna pull Razor's mask off and it's Fozzie.
@Bones said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
@gt12 said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
I can't believe it, the breakdown finally provides some actual data and some good points. Stopped clocks and all that, but Goldie is right, there is no reason for us to carry a winger on the bench when we could load up with another loosie or lock. I guess the counter point is that our back-ups aren't good enough, but we could get fresh legs out there while we still have 1st 5 cover with Dmac and Barrett. Seems a strange call by the coaches.
Someone is gonna pull Razor's mask off and it's Fozzie.
"I'd have got away with it, if it hadn't been for you pesky Ferners".
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One last thing about Mbonambis try-it doesn't matter whether the ball went backwards by the tiniest margin, or straight down or forwards or whether jordie was the only one touching it, dislodging it forwards.
The thing is, every person playing and watching rugby knows this is and should be ruled a knock on. I have not seen a single non South African on reddit say the try was awarded correctly, because you would expect this to be chalked off ten out of ten times, as it is the onus of the ball carrier to keep it under control. Similar to how Jordan knocked the ball on around 65 Mins or when that was, even if the ball went sideways.Was it Marius jonker on the bulls vs some. Aussie side in super rugby?
Anyways, Boks finished far better and did an 2012-2016 ABs on the ABs, so probably deserved the win at the end. Just.
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@W32 said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
@antipodean said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
@ARHS said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
Have posters seen the series of feature articles by Jared Wright on the Planet Rugby website? With the poor offerings from the NZ Rugby press and AB regime this year it is great to see such a learned and passionate researcher of international rugby offering so many great insights to promote positive and educated thinking. It appears that he may even be a new poster to this forum, researching perspectives from a wide variety of fans in preparation for release of his articles.
The same 'learned and passionate researcher' that tries to argue that Jordie actually knocked on and Mbonambi merely applied pressure to the ball for a legitimate try?
Even a partisan crowd went silent - they know what they saw.
You're assuming that the partisan crowd is up on the flowchart of what happens in this situation. Jeff Wilson can tell you where to find that chart. For what its worth, the flowchart would mean the try would have been awarded.
Was the partisan crowd correct in baying for a red card when Sam Cane broke Kolisis face? I haven't looked back in the thread, but as one eyed as you are I'm sure i'll find somewhere where that you think it was play on.According to Jason Ryan, the tmo checked it and said ‘glancing only’
Could always have been cited if it met the red card threshold
@DaGrubster the image NZH posted showed another AB tackling Kolisi around his hips potentially affecting Kolisis path and then Cane too upright, again.
As to the 'try' it looked to me to come forward out of the Boks control into JB then forward off JB into the Bok...as I said pages back, I have no issues with the Ref awarding that try and not using the TMO, IF that is how they always do it, but we know it isn't and we have more of the inconsistency we see week in week out.
Anywho, guess the issue is the TMO seems to pick and choose when to intervene, think WR really need to tighten up thier protocols and it is clear when they can and can't bring something to the refs attention without him asking.
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@DaGrubster the image NZH posted showed another AB tackling Kolisi around his hips potentially affecting Kolisis path and then Cane too upright, again.
As to the 'try' it looked to me to come forward out of the Boks control into JB then forward off JB into the Bok...as I said pages back, I have no issues with the Ref awarding that try and not using the TMO, IF that is how they always do it, but we know it isn't and we have more of the inconsistency we see week in week out.
Anywho, guess the issue is the TMO seems to pick and choose when to intervene, think WR really need to tighten up thier protocols and it is clear when they can and can't bring something to the refs attention without him asking.
@taniwharugby
In the act of scoring it's the refs call. He awarded an unsighted touchdown as a try.
On every occasion if the grounding is unsighted it must be referred to the TMO.
On this occasion it is unfair for Razor et al. and shouldn't have happened. -
One last thing about Mbonambis try-it doesn't matter whether the ball went backwards by the tiniest margin, or straight down or forwards or whether jordie was the only one touching it, dislodging it forwards.
The thing is, every person playing and watching rugby knows this is and should be ruled a knock on. I have not seen a single non South African on reddit say the try was awarded correctly, because you would expect this to be chalked off ten out of ten times, as it is the onus of the ball carrier to keep it under control. Similar to how Jordan knocked the ball on around 65 Mins or when that was, even if the ball went sideways.Was it Marius jonker on the bulls vs some. Aussie side in super rugby?
Anyways, Boks finished far better and did an 2012-2016 ABs on the ABs, so probably deserved the win at the end. Just.
@Tordah
It's impossible to know whether Mbonambi was holding the ball when the ball hit his face and dropped down.
You'd have to get the FBI involved.
Regardless it's no try. -
@nzzp said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
@MN5 said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
@Bones said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
@gt12 said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
I can't believe it, the breakdown finally provides some actual data and some good points. Stopped clocks and all that, but Goldie is right, there is no reason for us to carry a winger on the bench when we could load up with another loosie or lock. I guess the counter point is that our back-ups aren't good enough, but we could get fresh legs out there while we still have 1st 5 cover with Dmac and Barrett. Seems a strange call by the coaches.
It's pretty strange when they make a big thing about having utility value in players and then use it in all the wrong ways. Like, it seems they couldn't get it more wrong every time they sub or even name a bench?
Someone is gonna pull Razor's mask off and it's Fozzie.
Can someone make a shitty Scooby Doo meme with this ?
Upvote for effort but I’d prefer photoshops of their actual faces
@MN5 said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
Upvote for effort but I’d prefer photoshops of their actual faces
Then it won't look like Scooby Doo...
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@Jet said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
Ryan was asked if he was happy with the refs performance.
"It was a big test for Andrew Brace, Im sure he learned a few things, as did we".
Slightly less subtle than the usual euphemisms we get.
Whenever you see a coach (in this case Razor) say "discipline let us down", or mention "ref's interpretations", just read " that fluffybunny with the whistle didn't have a fucking clue".
Sadly they aren't allowed to say that, so I will.
@Snowy said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
@Jet said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
Ryan was asked if he was happy with the refs performance.
"It was a big test for Andrew Brace, Im sure he learned a few things, as did we".
Slightly less subtle than the usual euphemisms we get.
Whenever you see a coach (in this case Razor) say "discipline let us down", or mention "ref's interpretations", just read " that fluffybunny with the whistle didn't have a fucking clue".
Sadly they aren't allowed to say that, so I will.
One of my biggest bugbears in Rugby these days.
"Discipline let us down"
Translation: The refs perceptions/ interpretation of our discipline let us down. Video evidence shows our discipline was actually fine.
"we have to be cleverer with the pictures we are showing the ref"
Translation "we have to over exaggerate our clear releases etc, because this gobshite cant be trusted to officiate fairly".
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@pakman possibly. But the ABs were getting pumped all day at the maul. They gave up penalties on the first three mauls and, from memory, 5/8 total bok mauls.
Your bench forwards largely got manhandled all over the rest of the park too.
Bj Dickson who started at blindside also happens to be a lock/blindside like Pstd so I wouldn’t read too much into that theory
@Smuts said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
@pakman possibly. But the ABs were getting pumped all day at the maul. They gave up penalties on the first three mauls and, from memory, 5/8 total bok mauls.
Your bench forwards largely got manhandled all over the rest of the park too.
Bj Dickson who started at blindside also happens to be a lock/blindside like Pstd so I wouldn’t read too much into that theory
I'll take look at tape. For me the Ofa yellow was wrong, because the maul stopped twice before he rejoined. IMO a mini win for ABs.
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@Smuts said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
@pakman possibly. But the ABs were getting pumped all day at the maul. They gave up penalties on the first three mauls and, from memory, 5/8 total bok mauls.
Your bench forwards largely got manhandled all over the rest of the park too.
Bj Dickson who started at blindside also happens to be a lock/blindside like Pstd so I wouldn’t read too much into that theory
I'll take look at tape. For me the Ofa yellow was wrong, because the maul stopped twice before he rejoined. IMO a mini win for ABs.
@pakman not for the first time, someone had a bok’s leg lifted in that maul on the far side from the ref. a lovely little piece of skullduggery that I hope to have my u16s emulating soon.
Regardless, it’s not any one maul but rather the balance of them. Yes the ABs blunted the bok maul in the first 60 but they had to play right to the edge and over the line so it cost them a lot of penalties.
More costly was that at the business end the ref didn’t give them the benefit of the doubt they perhaps got earlier - which may well have been the case with the maul in question.
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Interesting analysis
Much better than that other guy, TSAnalytics
Scrum was an interesting watch. Not the dominance people on here thought
What can be agreed upon, the officiating team had a mare
Inconsistent and incorrect on far too many occasions
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Just before Fassi's yellow, he actually tackles Blackadder head on head and foot trips him in the same movement.
@Jet said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
Just before Fassi's yellow, he actually tackles Blackadder head on head and foot trips him in the same movement.
Just on scrum calls
4: Far side goes down. Impossible to see who at fault. X
22: Frans goes back and pushed up. Hinges and pulls TW down. If anything penalty black. X
26: Eben on. Boks lower than Blacks and go fwd. Couldn't argue if Boks awarded penalty. +
31: Frans also forced up. Drops right shoulder and scrum collapses. If anything penalty Black. X
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@reprobate Agree with you about the yapping - but, I wonder how many times Brace sent Jonny Sexton off. A weekly occurrence?
The somewhat annoying thing about that incident is that while play continued, PSdT hit Blackadder high in what would have been a very kickable position.
Overall, that was a really good test - very physical.
@pakman - have you done your scrum analysis? There were a couple around 55-60 mins where the Bok loosehead didn't look to be binding legally to me.
@Chris-B said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
@reprobate Agree with you about the yapping - but, I wonder how many times Brace sent Jonny Sexton off. A weekly occurrence?
The somewhat annoying thing about that incident is that while play continued, PSdT hit Blackadder high in what would have been a very kickable position.
Overall, that was a really good test - very physical.
@pakman - have you done your scrum analysis? There were a couple around 55-60 mins where the Bok loosehead didn't look to be binding legally to me.
Four stages.
- Starters.
First collapses on far side. Other two Blacks had edge and unlucky not to get penalty on third.
ABs 2-0
- Eben/Du Toit
First Boks get nudge, and could have earned penalty.
Second Frans squeezed up and ABs had better.
Third Frans drops to knees, but Ox has lifted Lomax.
Boks 2-1
- Eben/Nortje Bomb squad
One scrum. Blacks get slight nudge. Steenekemp wobble then knee on ground.
ABs 1-0
- Eben/Du Toit Bomb squad
First scrum Lomax still on. Steenekemp binding wide and being pivoted in with hips out. ABs go forward.
Second Newell on. Rock solid.
ABs 1-0
Total ABs 5-2, but Boks best scrum tough.
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@reprobate Agree with you about the yapping - but, I wonder how many times Brace sent Jonny Sexton off. A weekly occurrence?
The somewhat annoying thing about that incident is that while play continued, PSdT hit Blackadder high in what would have been a very kickable position.
Overall, that was a really good test - very physical.
@pakman - have you done your scrum analysis? There were a couple around 55-60 mins where the Bok loosehead didn't look to be binding legally to me.
@Chris-B i think Brace doesn't like yapping from scrumhalves, as later in the game he let the Bok 10 give him a spray twice - once after he called time when taking his conversion and another time in general play. No sanction.
Wouldn't surprise me if Rassie had done his homework on TJP and called out his "excessive communication" to Brace pre-game. Clever coaching if so.
TJP's yapping was silly on his part. The Bok 10 was clearly not rolling away and there was a banker penalty about to be given to ABs. He gave Brace the option to sanction him rather than the Boks. This view was deemed incredibly stupid on X when I pointed out that TJP's frustration got the better of him. I have the award on my mantelpiece now :beaming_face_with_smiling_eyes:
What will be interesting to me is if this is an initiative that refs will be implementing consistently to stop players reffing the game for them. My gut tells me they won't follow through, or even worse, will do so inconsistently which will just infuriate players, coaches and fans even more.
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@reprobate Agree with you about the yapping - but, I wonder how many times Brace sent Jonny Sexton off. A weekly occurrence?
The somewhat annoying thing about that incident is that while play continued, PSdT hit Blackadder high in what would have been a very kickable position.
Overall, that was a really good test - very physical.
@pakman - have you done your scrum analysis? There were a couple around 55-60 mins where the Bok loosehead didn't look to be binding legally to me.
@Chris-B said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
@reprobate Agree with you about the yapping - but, I wonder how many times Brace sent Jonny Sexton off. A weekly occurrence?
The somewhat annoying thing about that incident is that while play continued, PSdT hit Blackadder high in what would have been a very kickable position.
Overall, that was a really good test - very physical.
@pakman - have you done your scrum analysis? There were a couple around 55-60 mins where the Bok loosehead didn't look to be binding legally to me.
A lot of LHs use a long bind to TH's back around bottom of lats. Steenekemp seems to have a longish bind but grabs TH jersey on chest side, and seems to end up tugging jersey down. Without checking Laws not sure on strict legalities, but would be pinged if TH did it.
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@pakman not for the first time, someone had a bok’s leg lifted in that maul on the far side from the ref. a lovely little piece of skullduggery that I hope to have my u16s emulating soon.
Regardless, it’s not any one maul but rather the balance of them. Yes the ABs blunted the bok maul in the first 60 but they had to play right to the edge and over the line so it cost them a lot of penalties.
More costly was that at the business end the ref didn’t give them the benefit of the doubt they perhaps got earlier - which may well have been the case with the maul in question.
@Smuts said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
@pakman not for the first time, someone had a bok’s leg lifted in that maul on the far side from the ref. a lovely little piece of skullduggery that I hope to have my u16s emulating soon.
Regardless, it’s not any one maul but rather the balance of them. Yes the ABs blunted the bok maul in the first 60 but they had to play right to the edge and over the line so it cost them a lot of penalties.
More costly was that at the business end the ref didn’t give them the benefit of the doubt they perhaps got earlier - which may well have been the case with the maul in question.
There were three mauls in H1. From first ABs scored, but Lomax borderline in front of catcher. The other two ABs penalised, first for collapsing. The third Bongi botch, but would have been Boks penalty as ref playing advantage.
Six in second. First after Bomb Squad on ABs stopped legally. Second ABs overcomplicated at 63 when 5m out.
Then four from 67 to 74. The first stopped twice, but Brace was probably expecting ABs to cheat. So H1 impression did probably impact.
The last three were 8 on 7. ABs did all right. Stopped two but momentum on them allowed Boks to get close and led to tries.
One good AB stop at 72:30.
In summary, Boks had edge in mauls, but ABs edged lineouts and had better of scrums.
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@Smuts said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
@pakman not for the first time, someone had a bok’s leg lifted in that maul on the far side from the ref. a lovely little piece of skullduggery that I hope to have my u16s emulating soon.
Regardless, it’s not any one maul but rather the balance of them. Yes the ABs blunted the bok maul in the first 60 but they had to play right to the edge and over the line so it cost them a lot of penalties.
More costly was that at the business end the ref didn’t give them the benefit of the doubt they perhaps got earlier - which may well have been the case with the maul in question.
There were three mauls in H1. From first ABs scored, but Lomax borderline in front of catcher. The other two ABs penalised, first for collapsing. The third Bongi botch, but would have been Boks penalty as ref playing advantage.
Six in second. First after Bomb Squad on ABs stopped legally. Second ABs overcomplicated at 63 when 5m out.
Then four from 67 to 74. The first stopped twice, but Brace was probably expecting ABs to cheat. So H1 impression did probably impact.
The last three were 8 on 7. ABs did all right. Stopped two but momentum on them allowed Boks to get close and led to tries.
One good AB stop at 72:30.
In summary, Boks had edge in mauls, but ABs edged lineouts and had better of scrums.
@pakman seems we had the same impression of the mauls.
Read your scrum analysis above. Not sure I completely agree with your scoring but your scrum stood up very well in your 22 and was foxy in protecting possession outside of it. Overall though, giving up just a single penalty, winning all your put ins and making the scrum a mess on bok feeds is a big tactical success.
Not sure how you can say your lineout was on top. If the Sanzaar stats can be believed you won 13 and lost 1 (stolen at the front?), Boks won 24 and lost 2 (Marx overthrows, iirc.)
As an aside it’s very interesting seeing how many lineouts the ABs gave the boks. A lot of kicking to touch. Why the shift?
