All Blacks 2024
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Just FYI, test match performance by NZ coaches.
All the excuses for Razor, but this is historically bad.
https://www.rugbydatabase.co.nz/team/coachList.php?teamId=3&test=1
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
Just FYI, test match performance by NZ coaches.
All the excuses for Razor, but this is historically bad.
https://www.rugbydatabase.co.nz/team/coachList.php?teamId=3&test=1
Sure, but there are also nuances to it. That loss to Argentina was an absolute fluke where we gifted them two tries, that were absolutely bizarre. Can hardly blame the coaches for that... and how often (in recent times) have we played South Africa back to back over there?
I think the long-term outlook for this All Black side is quite good, so long as Razor and his staff continue to learn and adapt, which they have thus far.
Fact is, as much as people like the idea of it, you can't drop everyone. That would lead to even worse results.
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Well it's a fustrating year so far, overall a highly conservative selection process that has very timidly put forward any new blood into the international ranks. I don't understand in a year where you would get a free pass for rebuilding the team that we would seek to roll out as many old war horses as possible instead of training new ones.
This team can't seem to play for a full 80 minutes, Arg & SA 1 it was our defense and when we get our defence better in SA2 our attack goes missing.
The fact an assistant coach is gone already show's there's definate alignment problems there.
Whilst inidivdual players have stepped up and performed the team as a whole has not, exits and disclipine are still poor and our impact off the bench is getting worse and worse.
Yes we were close against SA and could have won both if only rugby was a 60 minute game. The last 20 minutes really cost us and it was the same in the loss to Arg.
It's a real case of one step forward and one step backwards and the team appears to be going around in circles.
I'm hoping they click and it all comes together soon, but there doesn't seem to be any real improvement.
@Windows97 said in All Blacks 2024:
Well it's a fustrating year so far, overall a highly conservative selection process that has very timidly put forward any new blood into the international ranks. I don't understand in a year where you would get a free pass for rebuilding the team that we would seek to roll out as many old war horses as possible instead of training new ones.
This team can't seem to play for a full 80 minutes, Arg & SA 1 it was our defense and when we get our defence better in SA2 our attack goes missing.
The fact an assistant coach is gone already show's there's definate alignment problems there.
Whilst inidivdual players have stepped up and performed the team as a whole has not, exits and disclipine are still poor and our impact off the bench is getting worse and worse.
Yes we were close against SA and could have won both if only rugby was a 60 minute game. The last 20 minutes really cost us and it was the same in the loss to Arg.
It's a real case of one step forward and one step backwards and the team appears to be going around in circles.
I'm hoping they click and it all comes together soon, but there doesn't seem to be any real improvement.
yeah....at least one of two things has to be true now...either we dont have the cattle, guys just arent smart enough implement whats been coached...or Razor isnt as good a coach as we hoped
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The comparisons between Foster and Robertson are seriously premature. One had years to get better (apparently without doing so, assistants aside) the other has had months. As has been mentioned the Arg loss (which was appalling) was dreadful defence, then that got better and our offence is atrocious. Hopefully that is pendulum swinging and we find some balance.
We had RWC finalist players so pretty much had to start with them, move on from there. Like most here my major gripe is the loosies and we did have two good options that we didn’t try (yes Akira has been tried in the past but Kaino was too, he worked out OK when given another crack). We also need to address the outside backs, and to give Foster his due, as a full back Jordan makes an excellent wing. Even a stopped clock…
Change takes time and while it is happening life can be really shit.
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@Kirwan said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
We all agree that if we lose against this Wallabies side Razor should be sacked?
The gloss has well and truly come off and all the hype around Robertson has turned out to be, well, hype.
But I say stick with him as a new coach needs more time. Also (broken record alert) I think there are way deeper problems with NZ rugby affecting the ABs than just the coach. That said, we need a review of his tenure so far to see what's missing, if he needs support and also start asking questions on if he's really up to Test rugby or how much more time he needs.
As @Hooroo says, worst scenario is 2 thumping wins over the Wobbles which paper over the cracks.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@Kirwan said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
We all agree that if we lose against this Wallabies side Razor should be sacked?
The gloss has well and truly come off and all the hype around Robertson has turned out to be, well, hype.
What exactly were your expectations? What was the gloss? The hype? There was hope, but most were pragmatic enough to know that super isn’t test. There is evidence of change and I certainly wasn’t expecting him to waltz/ break dance in and beat the Boks at home. I gave last year’s RWC holders more credit than that. We really should have sneaked a win in the end but it wasn’t as bad as it could have been.
If Robertson goes down the Foster road and keeps doing the same things and expecting different results, then hopefully the NZRU will recognise their mistake and dispatch him, unlike Foster who got reappointed after one win in SA.
Mils for example said 4 or 5 losses for the year would be acceptable, given what was in front of a newbie coach. I had hoped for 3 but that was highly unlikely. The loss to Arg at home was truly poor but the season can be salvaged with a good EoY tour. Certainly cannot lose to Oz but even then sacking him would probably be knee jerk ( albeit that I would be freeing up space in my cellar!).
Edit: last bit re sacking in response to @Kirwan
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The comparisons between Foster and Robertson are seriously premature. One had years to get better (apparently without doing so, assistants aside) the other has had months. As has been mentioned the Arg loss (which was appalling) was dreadful defence, then that got better and our offence is atrocious. Hopefully that is pendulum swinging and we find some balance.
We had RWC finalist players so pretty much had to start with them, move on from there. Like most here my major gripe is the loosies and we did have two good options that we didn’t try (yes Akira has been tried in the past but Kaino was too, he worked out OK when given another crack). We also need to address the outside backs, and to give Foster his due, as a full back Jordan makes an excellent wing. Even a stopped clock…
Change takes time and while it is happening life can be really shit.
@Snowy said in All Blacks 2024:
The comparisons between Foster and Robertson are seriously premature. One had years to get better (apparently without doing so, assistants aside) the other has had months. As has been mentioned the Arg loss (which was appalling) was dreadful defence, then that got better and our offence is atrocious. Hopefully that is pendulum swinging and we find some balance.
I don't get this argument. Foster's original assistants (not the ones he wanted but the ones he could get at the time) were replaced and then the team improved making a RWC final. So then people dismiss Foster by saying it's them that drove the improvement. Fair enough but to what extent? In that case, one of them just coached the Wallabies to a record defeat.
This helps confirm that it's not just the coach. But there's no suggestion Razor didn't get the ones he wanted. What is worrying was the discrepancy between himself and Leon.
And the squad selection is entirely on him too.
I also don't accept that making one thing better necessarily entails the others turning to shit. Not being able to score a solitary try in excellent conditions is worrying. But if the pendulum theory did hold true in this team, it would suggest to me that they're reactive and lurching from one problem to another.
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@antipodean that is why I said “assistants aside”. I was trying to leave that argument out of it!
I’m hoping that it is pendulum affect, an over compensation would be preferable to no change at all while some balance is found. Yes of course instantly perfect would be ideal
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Well it's a fustrating year so far, overall a highly conservative selection process that has very timidly put forward any new blood into the international ranks. I don't understand in a year where you would get a free pass for rebuilding the team that we would seek to roll out as many old war horses as possible instead of training new ones.
This team can't seem to play for a full 80 minutes, Arg & SA 1 it was our defense and when we get our defence better in SA2 our attack goes missing.
The fact an assistant coach is gone already show's there's definate alignment problems there.
Whilst inidivdual players have stepped up and performed the team as a whole has not, exits and disclipine are still poor and our impact off the bench is getting worse and worse.
Yes we were close against SA and could have won both if only rugby was a 60 minute game. The last 20 minutes really cost us and it was the same in the loss to Arg.
It's a real case of one step forward and one step backwards and the team appears to be going around in circles.
I'm hoping they click and it all comes together soon, but there doesn't seem to be any real improvement.
@Windows97 said in All Blacks 2024:
Yes we were close against SA and could have won both if only rugby was a 60 minute game. The last 20 minutes really cost us and it was the same in the loss to Arg.
I'd say most teams would have said the same about playing the ABs under the Henry/Hansen era. Unfortunately for them, and for us right now, the last 20 minutes is where test matches are won and lost.
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I thought Razor did well to get the wins against England, in that he got the team prepared in a short space of time without making any real changes to tactics or personnel. They were tight wins that could have gone either way, but that really was a dream start for Razor.
I expected us to really build from that, and for Razor to make his mark on the team. However, we've just gone backwards at a rate of knots, and our ability to close out a game is just completely non existent now.
The whole "we were in a position to win but blew it" argument is awful and for losers. As I said above it's what other teams used to say about playing us to console themselves. I expect us to be in a position to win every match, all that matters is whether we actually win, and right now this team has zero composure in the final 20.
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@stodders said in All Blacks 2024:
@Victor-Meldrew he had coached at international level. He got his arse handed to him in 2004 and had to adjust.
Robertson has had his arse handed to him. Now he needs to adjust. Let’s see if he does.
Henry lost 2 games out of 11 in '04 - a 5 point loss in Sydney and a 14 point loss at Ellis Park - so hardly had his arse handed to him. Robertson has to win all his games against Oz, Ireland, England and France to match that.
Now I don't know if Robertson's been unlucky, is adjusting or needs more support, but it's fair to say the jury's out on if he can hack it at Test level.
@Victor-Meldrew France, Ireland , Argentina and South Africa are comparatively stronger than they were in 2004.
Australia less so. -
I thought Razor did well to get the wins against England, in that he got the team prepared in a short space of time without making any real changes to tactics or personnel. They were tight wins that could have gone either way, but that really was a dream start for Razor.
I expected us to really build from that, and for Razor to make his mark on the team. However, we've just gone backwards at a rate of knots, and our ability to close out a game is just completely non existent now.
The whole "we were in a position to win but blew it" argument is awful and for losers. As I said above it's what other teams used to say about playing us to console themselves. I expect us to be in a position to win every match, all that matters is whether we actually win, and right now this team has zero composure in the final 20.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2024:
and right now this team has zero composure in the final 20.
Absolutely. Unfortunately, with the research that has been done into successful teams, that comes down to on field leadership. We don’t have decent options who are first choice players there and Scott Barrett doesn’t see to have it.
Of course Robertson chose the captain.
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I thought Razor did well to get the wins against England, in that he got the team prepared in a short space of time without making any real changes to tactics or personnel. They were tight wins that could have gone either way, but that really was a dream start for Razor.
I expected us to really build from that, and for Razor to make his mark on the team. However, we've just gone backwards at a rate of knots, and our ability to close out a game is just completely non existent now.
The whole "we were in a position to win but blew it" argument is awful and for losers. As I said above it's what other teams used to say about playing us to console themselves. I expect us to be in a position to win every match, all that matters is whether we actually win, and right now this team has zero composure in the final 20.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2024:
I thought Razor did well to get the wins against England, in that he got the team prepared in a short space of time without making any real changes to tactics or personnel. They were tight wins that could have gone either way, but that really was a dream start for Razor.
I expected us to really build from that, and for Razor to make his mark on the team. However, we've just gone backwards at a rate of knots, and our ability to close out a game is just completely non existent now.
The whole "we were in a position to win but blew it" argument is awful and for losers. As I said above it's what other teams used to say about playing us to console themselves. I expect us to be in a position to win every match, all that matters is whether we actually win, and right now this team has zero composure in the final 20.
Razor himself said after the England tests when questioned about the performance ,
Winning is the important part
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@MiketheSnow said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@kidcalder said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@LatsToTheMax
I have often thought Clarke could go well in midfield - size and good feet.
Maybe worth an experiment in super rugby to see what hands and vision are likeClarke is not the droid you’re looking for
He's only just starting to play rest rugby well at wing! You could see Nonu had something early on, I don't see that with Clarke. If he can be a very good winger I'll be satisfied
@canefan said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@MiketheSnow said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@kidcalder said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@LatsToTheMax
I have often thought Clarke could go well in midfield - size and good feet.
Maybe worth an experiment in super rugby to see what hands and vision are likeClarke is not the droid you’re looking for
He's only just starting to play rest rugby well at wing! You could see Nonu had something early on, I don't see that with Clarke. If he can be a very good winger I'll be satisfied
No one thought Nonu would be world class at 12.
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@canefan said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@MiketheSnow said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@kidcalder said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@LatsToTheMax
I have often thought Clarke could go well in midfield - size and good feet.
Maybe worth an experiment in super rugby to see what hands and vision are likeClarke is not the droid you’re looking for
He's only just starting to play rest rugby well at wing! You could see Nonu had something early on, I don't see that with Clarke. If he can be a very good winger I'll be satisfied
No one thought Nonu would be world class at 12.
@LatsToTheMax said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@canefan said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@MiketheSnow said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@kidcalder said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@LatsToTheMax
I have often thought Clarke could go well in midfield - size and good feet.
Maybe worth an experiment in super rugby to see what hands and vision are likeClarke is not the droid you’re looking for
He's only just starting to play rest rugby well at wing! You could see Nonu had something early on, I don't see that with Clarke. If he can be a very good winger I'll be satisfied
Nonu thought Nonu would be world class at 12.
And he was right!
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Something I found interesting was Sotutu came off the bench for counties manukau and seemed to have a bit of intensity about him. I wonder if it was an ABs request as you don’t just have the form number 8 of super rugby on the bench in a provincial game.
Also now thinking Ardie to 7, which opens us up to Sititi or a real 8 and Blackadder or an abrasive big 6. A much better balance. Sititi can handle both the abrasive stuff and the speed around the park enabling the ABs to play both ways.
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Closing out a game at home with little expectation on you at home versus closing out a game away in enemy territory is different. I would argue we haven't closed out a game away since Ireland and we failed with better group against SA in the RWC.
I dont think we have gone as backwards as people think. We were not far off winning both those matches. Do we have the maturity and calmness to execute currently, it appears not and some of the senior talent is not providing that element either.
I do think we missed a great opportunity to blood some new talent and interestingly in that approach I would say the public would probably have been a lot more forgiving.
Its been a while since I believe we have truly owned the last 10 minutes before half and before full time.
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Closing out a game at home with little expectation on you at home versus closing out a game away in enemy territory is different. I would argue we haven't closed out a game away since Ireland and we failed with better group against SA in the RWC.
I dont think we have gone as backwards as people think. We were not far off winning both those matches. Do we have the maturity and calmness to execute currently, it appears not and some of the senior talent is not providing that element either.
I do think we missed a great opportunity to blood some new talent and interestingly in that approach I would say the public would probably have been a lot more forgiving.
Its been a while since I believe we have truly owned the last 10 minutes before half and before full time.
@bayimports said in All Blacks 2024:
Closing out a game at home with little expectation on you at home versus closing out a game away in enemy territory is different. I would argue we haven't closed out a game away since Ireland and we failed with better group against SA in the RWC.
I dont think we have gone as backwards as people think. We were not far off winning both those matches. Do we have the maturity and calmness to execute currently, it appears not and some of the senior talent is not providing that element either.
I do think we missed a great opportunity to blood some new talent and interestingly in that approach I would say the public would probably have been a lot more forgiving.
Its been a while since I believe we have truly owned the last 10 minutes before half and before full time.
I think the in-game strategy is good, the attacking structures are good, it's just Razor and his poor selections/management of his bench which is killing us in these games.
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@LatsToTheMax said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@canefan said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@MiketheSnow said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@kidcalder said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@LatsToTheMax
I have often thought Clarke could go well in midfield - size and good feet.
Maybe worth an experiment in super rugby to see what hands and vision are likeClarke is not the droid you’re looking for
He's only just starting to play rest rugby well at wing! You could see Nonu had something early on, I don't see that with Clarke. If he can be a very good winger I'll be satisfied
Nonu thought Nonu would be world class at 12.
And he was right!
@canefan said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@LatsToTheMax said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@canefan said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@MiketheSnow said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@kidcalder said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@LatsToTheMax
I have often thought Clarke could go well in midfield - size and good feet.
Maybe worth an experiment in super rugby to see what hands and vision are likeClarke is not the droid you’re looking for
He's only just starting to play rest rugby well at wing! You could see Nonu had something early on, I don't see that with Clarke. If he can be a very good winger I'll be satisfied
Nonu thought Nonu would be world class at 12.
And he was right!
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Nonu was extremely raw, they used him on and off for a while before he matured and played consistently. He was bit of a loose canon. Probably explains why Conrad was the perfect partner for him.
Re Caleb, he grew up playing in the centres. I think he would be a devastating offensive centre but he’s not that agile on defense. I think he would struggle there. He may defend better at 12? I’m not sure that he as that endurance fitness either.
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Razor needs to look at the bigger picture, having to select the team around TJP, BB, Savea is also hurting us, it's comprising the balance of the whole team.
