All Blacks 2024
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@Billy-Tell said in All Blacks 2024:
There are some real drama queens on this thread. We weren’t that far off winning the 2 tests in SA. Against a settled SA side and coaching setup. It’s not a compete capitulation like if we were to get our asses handed to us by Australia in consecutive tests. From where we came from under foster to expect to go rapidly from strength to strength is totally unrealistic.
Not wanting to sound like an apologist, but the loss of experience hasn't helped us either
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@Billy-Tell said in All Blacks 2024:
There are some real drama queens on this thread. We weren’t that far off winning the 2 tests in SA. Against a settled SA side and coaching setup. It’s not a compete capitulation like if we were to get our asses handed to us by Australia in consecutive tests. From where we came from under foster to expect to go rapidly from strength to strength is totally unrealistic.
Not wanting to sound like an apologist, but the loss of experience hasn't helped us either
I do very much like the increased use of the word apologist on this forum, especailly after the sten telling off Duluth gave me the first time I used it
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@stodders said in All Blacks 2024:
Experience counts.
Our experience is adding fuck all.
In fact - I'm of the view some of these experienced players are holding us back.
Where are these experienced players to be seen in the last 20 minutes when we need them?
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2024:
@stodders said in All Blacks 2024:
Experience counts.
Our experience is adding fuck all.
In fact - I'm of the view some of these experienced players are holding us back.
Where are these experienced players to be seen in the last 20 minutes when we need them?
That's on point with my fustrations - I remember in Arg1 when our lineout went to kak when Darry (in his second test or something) went off. Our least experinced player went off and no-one else put their hand up to take charge.
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@Billy-Tell said in All Blacks 2024:
There are some real drama queens on this thread. We weren’t that far off winning the 2 tests in SA. Against a settled SA side and coaching setup. It’s not a compete capitulation like if we were to get our asses handed to us by Australia in consecutive tests. From where we came from under foster to expect to go rapidly from strength to strength is totally unrealistic.
Not wanting to sound like an apologist, but the loss of experience hasn't helped us either
I do very much like the increased use of the word apologist on this forum, especailly after the sten telling off Duluth gave me the first time I used it
@Windows97 said in All Blacks 2024:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@Billy-Tell said in All Blacks 2024:
There are some real drama queens on this thread. We weren’t that far off winning the 2 tests in SA. Against a settled SA side and coaching setup. It’s not a compete capitulation like if we were to get our asses handed to us by Australia in consecutive tests. From where we came from under foster to expect to go rapidly from strength to strength is totally unrealistic.
Not wanting to sound like an apologist, but the loss of experience hasn't helped us either
I do very much like the increased use of the word apologist on this forum, especailly after the sten telling off Duluth gave me the first time I used it
It's been repurposed from the political threads
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the other thing to consider, is the state NZ Rugby was in the last couple of years, so Razor is picking this team up where NZ Rugby as a whole is behind where it was when Fozzie took over, granted even when Fozzie took over it was on a decline, this was exaggerated by Covid and then SA leaving NZ, but NZ Rugby is at a critical juncture where we could so very easily drop off as Australia has, or we rebuild based off the need for some new ideas and direction.
Is Razor the man to guide us? Who knows, but I do think there is still more turbulence to come.
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Overall It's not the loses, it's the nature of the losses. I was expecting a fresher approach and a bit more inventiveness.
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Expected a bit more change (apart from the first 2-3 Tests) but most of the ones we've seen were mainly forced by injury. Take some chances - he's got the time. Build depth.
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Evidence of better, leadership, mental attitude and focus, discipline at key moments. That's got worse IMO.
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A more dynamic, varied attack. The chip kicks have gone but so has the backline penetration.
I'm not saying sack him but really think NZR need a review after the RC to see where things are going and what needs to be done.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
Overall It's not the loses, it's the nature of the losses. I was expecting a fresher approach and a bit more inventiveness.
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Expected a bit more change (apart from the first 2-3 Tests) but most of the ones we've seen were mainly forced by injury. Take some chances - he's got the time. Build depth.
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Evidence of better, leadership, mental attitude and focus, discipline at key moments. That's got worse IMO.
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A more dynamic, varied attack. The chip kicks have gone but so has the backline penetration.
I'm not saying sack him but really think NZR need a review after the RC to see where things are going and what needs to be done.
same
i think people might be annoyed but more optimistic if we'd lost these games but with more younger players, some new game plan or something
how it currently is i just struggle to see where we're going with selecting largely what we would have expected with fozzie and playing quite similar too
im afraid we're going to get to 2027 and we'll still be fielding BB and TJP and probably cane and RM....and the reason they give is we didnt have anyone else with enough experience
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the other thing to consider, is the state NZ Rugby was in the last couple of years, so Razor is picking this team up where NZ Rugby as a whole is behind where it was when Fozzie took over, granted even when Fozzie took over it was on a decline, this was exaggerated by Covid and then SA leaving NZ, but NZ Rugby is at a critical juncture where we could so very easily drop off as Australia has, or we rebuild based off the need for some new ideas and direction.
Is Razor the man to guide us? Who knows, but I do think there is still more turbulence to come.
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This post is deleted!
@MiketheSnow so what I said was incorrect?
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
Overall It's not the loses, it's the nature of the losses. I was expecting a fresher approach and a bit more inventiveness.
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Expected a bit more change (apart from the first 2-3 Tests) but most of the ones we've seen were mainly forced by injury. Take some chances - he's got the time. Build depth.
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Evidence of better, leadership, mental attitude and focus, discipline at key moments. That's got worse IMO.
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A more dynamic, varied attack. The chip kicks have gone but so has the backline penetration.
I'm not saying sack him but really think NZR need a review after the RC to see where things are going and what needs to be done.
same
i think people might be annoyed but more optimistic if we'd lost these games but with more younger players, some new game plan or something
how it currently is i just struggle to see where we're going with selecting largely what we would have expected with fozzie and playing quite similar too
im afraid we're going to get to 2027 and we'll still be fielding BB and TJP and probably cane and RM....and the reason they give is we didnt have anyone else with enough experience
It's no surprise there's not much change. One of the main selectors and the head forwards coach is well into his third year with the side.
A feature of his reign has been the inconsistency of the forwards. They alternate between quality and insipid performances. The players can deliver but the coach can't get it out of them regularly. Yet the criticism is minimal. His sides have lost twice to Argentina now but it appears our standards have been lowered now
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@MiketheSnow so what I said was incorrect?
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It's no surprise there's not much change. One of the main selectors and the head forwards coach is well into his third year with the side.
A feature of his reign has been the inconsistency of the forwards. They alternate between quality and insipid performances. The players can deliver but the coach can't get it out of them regularly. Yet the criticism is minimal. His sides have lost twice to Argentina now but it appears our standards have been lowered now
@Duluth it might have been my own head canon razor was coming in and everyone would have to earn their spot, start from scratch, no more cliche's about experience and shit...bit of a wake up call
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@taniwharugby no, you’re just a low expectation doom merchant
@stodders I'm a pretty positive person in general, but right now, when it comes to rugby, I'd say more a realist!
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Players will drop out of this squad in the next 6-18 months and new ones will come in as Razor makes decisions this is the norm, but I also think changes in coaching staff will happen in that period.
The mix is not right yet on and off the pitch.
NZ rugby dropped the ball I feel not having Joe Schmitt involved ... maybe at some point Vern Cotter may settle the ship. -
@kpkanz said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@Yeahtheboys said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@kpkanz “razor wins each one of them” based on fucking what? He lost to Argentina at home?
Because I'm comparing the rugby we're playing under Razor to the rugby we played under Foster??
Which was the worst I have ever seen the All Blacks play in decades of watching?Our Argentina loss this year we were up 20-8 and threw the game away where we basically handed 2 free tries and collapsed. A game we blew.
Do you not remember the Argentina losses under Foster?
In those games we were genuinely dominated from minute 1 to minute 80. At NO point in those entire games did we look like winning.That has not happened once in Razors first year. All 3 losses we had a legitimate chance for victory, 2 of them where we had no right to lose from the position we were in.
So yes this is magnitudes better than Fosters first 2 years before Schmidt/Ryan joined.
Mate, what Foster did or didn't do 3 years ago has got bugger all to do with current AB problems.
We've gone from losing RWC 2023 to SA by one point with (14 men) to blowing a 27-14 lead at 68 minutes to lose 31-27 to SA. (And before you start throwing the "loss of experienced players" bullshit, both sides had 13 of their 23 at the RWC on that day)
How the fuck you regard that as progress or proof that we're playing better rugby overall under Robertson is beyond me.
@Victor-Meldrew said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@kpkanz said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@Yeahtheboys said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@kpkanz “razor wins each one of them” based on fucking what? He lost to Argentina at home?
Because I'm comparing the rugby we're playing under Razor to the rugby we played under Foster??
Which was the worst I have ever seen the All Blacks play in decades of watching?Our Argentina loss this year we were up 20-8 and threw the game away where we basically handed 2 free tries and collapsed. A game we blew.
Do you not remember the Argentina losses under Foster?
In those games we were genuinely dominated from minute 1 to minute 80. At NO point in those entire games did we look like winning.That has not happened once in Razors first year. All 3 losses we had a legitimate chance for victory, 2 of them where we had no right to lose from the position we were in.
So yes this is magnitudes better than Fosters first 2 years before Schmidt/Ryan joined.
Mate, what Foster did or didn't do 3 years ago has got bugger all to do with current AB problems.
We've gone from losing RWC 2023 to SA by one point with (14 men) to blowing a 27-14 lead at 68 minutes to lose 31-27 to SA. (And before you start throwing the "loss of experienced players" bullshit, both sides had 13 of their 23 at the RWC on that day)
How the fuck you regard that as progress or proof that we're playing better rugby overall under Robertson is beyond me.
I didn't realise the RWC was in SA.
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I don't see Schmitt as a long term Wallabies coach, he was only signed for two years with the main focus being on the Lions tour. We will see how well he is in the Bledisloe. Wonder if there is any chance of getting Dave Rennie back in New Zealand.
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It's no surprise there's not much change. One of the main selectors and the head forwards coach is well into his third year with the side.
A feature of his reign has been the inconsistency of the forwards. They alternate between quality and insipid performances. The players can deliver but the coach can't get it out of them regularly. Yet the criticism is minimal. His sides have lost twice to Argentina now but it appears our standards have been lowered now
I agree that Ryan's forwards have been incredibly inconsistent.
Its rare that there have been performances where everything is firing in the forwards. There seems to be always something wrong.
However often have we seen it all come together for the forwards against a top team?
When have we nailed the following all at the same time?
- Scrum
- Lineout
- Maul
- Breakdown
- Restarts
- Go forward with good carries
In the weekend:
- Scrum - wobbly start but steady later on
- Lineout - 83% won - a mediocre result
- Maul - 1 maul won - poor. Maul defense good but they still had 8 mauls where they retained possession
- Breakdown - Boks won more rucks
- Restarts - sloppy again
- Go forward with good carries - only Sititi close in and Taylor in the wider channels made ground. The rest were average.
South Africa's forwards had a clear advantage in maintaining possession over our forwards in both games.
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I agree that Ryan's forwards have been incredibly inconsistent.
Its rare that there have been performances where everything is firing in the forwards. There seems to be always something wrong.
However often have we seen it all come together for the forwards against a top team?
When have we nailed the following all at the same time?
- Scrum
- Lineout
- Maul
- Breakdown
- Restarts
- Go forward with good carries
In the weekend:
- Scrum - wobbly start but steady later on
- Lineout - 83% won - a mediocre result
- Maul - 1 maul won - poor. Maul defense good but they still had 8 mauls where they retained possession
- Breakdown - Boks won more rucks
- Restarts - sloppy again
- Go forward with good carries - only Sititi close in and Taylor in the wider channels made ground. The rest were average.
South Africa's forwards had a clear advantage in maintaining possession over our forwards in both games.
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
I agree that Ryan's forwards have been incredibly inconsistent.
Its rare that there have been performances where everything is firing in the forwards. There seems to be always something wrong.
However often have we seen it all come together for the forwards against a top team?
When have we nailed the following all at the same time?
- Scrum
- Lineout
- Maul
- Breakdown
- Restarts
- Go forward with good carries
In the weekend:
- Scrum - wobbly start but steady later on
- Lineout - 83% won - a mediocre result
- Maul - 1 maul won - poor. Maul defense good but they still had 8 mauls where they retained possession
- Breakdown - Boks won more rucks
- Restarts - sloppy again
- Go forward with good carries - only Sititi close in and Taylor in the wider channels made ground. The rest were average.
We put more pressure on their lineout than they put on ours in my opinion - I don't think that's mediocre against SA (particularly with our short side selected).
We won 10 turnovers to their 4 - I felt we had the edge at the breakdown for much of the game (in both games actually).
Sititi helped with the carries no doubt, but it remains a relative weakness.My biggest gripe was the contestable kicks. Our kicks were worse than theirs, our chasers were much worse than theirs, and our protection of our catchers was fucking abject compared to theirs. Same-old as under Foster that aspect.
2nd biggest gripe soft try-line defence.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
I agree that Ryan's forwards have been incredibly inconsistent.
Its rare that there have been performances where everything is firing in the forwards. There seems to be always something wrong.
However often have we seen it all come together for the forwards against a top team?
When have we nailed the following all at the same time?
- Scrum
- Lineout
- Maul
- Breakdown
- Restarts
- Go forward with good carries
In the weekend:
- Scrum - wobbly start but steady later on
- Lineout - 83% won - a mediocre result
- Maul - 1 maul won - poor. Maul defense good but they still had 8 mauls where they retained possession
- Breakdown - Boks won more rucks
- Restarts - sloppy again
- Go forward with good carries - only Sititi close in and Taylor in the wider channels made ground. The rest were average.
We put more pressure on their lineout than they put on ours in my opinion - I don't think that's mediocre against SA (particularly with our short side selected).
We won 10 turnovers to their 4 - I felt we had the edge at the breakdown for much of the game (in both games actually).
Sititi helped with the carries no doubt, but it remains a relative weakness.My biggest gripe was the contestable kicks. Our kicks were worse than theirs, our chasers were much worse than theirs, and our protection of our catchers was fucking abject compared to theirs. Same-old as under Foster that aspect.
2nd biggest gripe soft try-line defence.
If we had the edge at the breakdown we would be the ones winning more rucks and winning more possession but we weren't. We did win more possession and more rucks across the 2 England tests. The Highlanders and Harmon always win lots of turnovers because they can never dominate possesion.
We no longer have the composure in the backs to win games against South Africa playing with 45% possession to their 55% which is what it was in both games.
We do have the forwards in New Zealand to be the ones playing with 55% possession.
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People complain about Finau not doing enough but he is better at the breakdown than Sititi. He reliably secures the ball.
Papali'i just gets to more breakdowns than Cane. He gets to breakdowns that Cane doesn't have the pace to get too. Razor desires a 15 man game with more width and Cane is not the guy for that game. The AB's and Cane improved under Foster when Schmidt took over because they started playing a narrower game plan that suits Cane's lack of mobility.
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I don't see Schmitt as a long term Wallabies coach, he was only signed for two years with the main focus being on the Lions tour. We will see how well he is in the Bledisloe. Wonder if there is any chance of getting Dave Rennie back in New Zealand.
@SBW1 said in All Blacks 2024:
I don't see Schmitt as a long term Wallabies coach, he was only signed for two years with the main focus being on the Lions tour. We will see how well he is in the Bledisloe. Wonder if there is any chance of getting Dave Rennie back in New Zealand.
I not sure Rennie is the answer to be honest. I must admit I a Joseph fan, only because I think he is more a basic forward driven type coach.
But I not suggesting Razor should go anyway, I just believe we seeing the realistic situation. Razor was a very good super coach, and is still learning to be an international one. -
@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
If we had a back row of Finau, Sotutu and Papalii and Stevenson at 15 and Proctor at 13 I’d forgive a couple of losses as we are blooding new combos etc.
I think this is part of the problem though - people in general wouldn't accept us getting towelled by 15-20 points, heck we are seeing a meltdown after losing two close tests.
Fact is, we are in between generations because for about a 4-6 year period, the production line was not as good as it has been, shown by the U20 Results.
Our best front rowers (outside of Taylor) are all 26 and under. Our five best locks (outside of Barrett) are all 24 and under. These guys will be peaking at the next World Cup.
Loose forwards remain a mish mash, because we are forced to stick with older guys, as the likes of Finau simply have not stepped up. If I was Razor and company, I would persist with Sititi, Cane/Papalii and Savea for the next couple of tests. Peter Lakai to me eventually comes in at 7, then it is a question of whether Savea is at 8 or is an impact sub. Plenty of blindsides coming through, so Sititi will eventually move to 8. This will sort itself.
Then the backs.
Halfback stocks look good, it will just take time for Ratima & Roigard to build up experience. First five is a massive issue, highlighted by the fact we are begging Mo'unga to come back. We haven't seen an 'All Black level' first five come through since Mo'unga. Hopefully one of Jacomb, Millar (or someone else) can really step up. I'd be tempted to pick one on the EOYT, purely because we need to start looking at someone. Plummer is not the answer, he is an injury stop gap.
Midfielders isn't a problem. Barrett and Ioane are doing a perfectly fine job. ALB and Procter certainly worth a try if you want to move Ioane back to the wing, but it is the least of our worries.
Outside backs will be fine too. Clarke has nailed down the left wing, and I think Jordan remains the option on the right wing. The two fullbacks is certainly necessary with the aerial strategies that will be employed - or at the very least a winger who is excellent under the high ball. Reece and Tele'a are on the way out I think, so who comes next? Narawa and Tavatavanawai would be the two I'd look at. Love to get a go at fullback too. These are regardless all inexperienced guys, and we couldn't chuck them all in at once.
In Foster's first year we lost to Argentina for the first time, and were a missed kick on full-time away from losing a home Bledisloe test - this is hardly comparable.
@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
If we had a back row of Finau, Sotutu and Papalii and Stevenson at 15 and Proctor at 13 I’d forgive a couple of losses as we are blooding new combos etc.
I think this is part of the problem though - people in general wouldn't accept us getting towelled by 15-20 points, heck we are seeing a meltdown after losing two close tests.
Fact is, we are in between generations because for about a 4-6 year period, the production line was not as good as it has been, shown by the U20 Results.
Our best front rowers (outside of Taylor) are all 26 and under. Our five best locks (outside of Barrett) are all 24 and under. These guys will be peaking at the next World Cup.
Loose forwards remain a mish mash, because we are forced to stick with older guys, as the likes of Finau simply have not stepped up. If I was Razor and company, I would persist with Sititi, Cane/Papalii and Savea for the next couple of tests. Peter Lakai to me eventually comes in at 7, then it is a question of whether Savea is at 8 or is an impact sub. Plenty of blindsides coming through, so Sititi will eventually move to 8. This will sort itself.
Then the backs.
Halfback stocks look good, it will just take time for Ratima & Roigard to build up experience. First five is a massive issue, highlighted by the fact we are begging Mo'unga to come back. We haven't seen an 'All Black level' first five come through since Mo'unga. Hopefully one of Jacomb, Millar (or someone else) can really step up. I'd be tempted to pick one on the EOYT, purely because we need to start looking at someone. Plummer is not the answer, he is an injury stop gap.
Midfielders isn't a problem. Barrett and Ioane are doing a perfectly fine job. ALB and Procter certainly worth a try if you want to move Ioane back to the wing, but it is the least of our worries.
Outside backs will be fine too. Clarke has nailed down the left wing, and I think Jordan remains the option on the right wing. The two fullbacks is certainly necessary with the aerial strategies that will be employed - or at the very least a winger who is excellent under the high ball. Reece and Tele'a are on the way out I think, so who comes next? Narawa and Tavatavanawai would be the two I'd look at. Love to get a go at fullback too. These are regardless all inexperienced guys, and we couldn't chuck them all in at once.
In Foster's first year we lost to Argentina for the first time, and were a missed kick on full-time away from losing a home Bledisloe test - this is hardly comparable.
We conceded 38 to Argentina and 31 to SA anyway with the "seasoned pro's".
