NZ First Five Crisis
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@Crazy-Horse Genuinely wonder if there not an argument for Stevenson to be looked at , although I have tended to never be a huge fan, I think hos boot etc would strengthen us at 15?
@Dan54 said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Crazy-Horse Genuinely wonder if there not an argument for Stevenson to be looked at , although I have tended to never be a huge fan, I think hos boot etc would strengthen us at 15?
Defence is a massive issue, particularly in Tests.
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i must be remembering the SA tests differently. DMac repeatedly exited from deep in our own end to up by halfway with minimum fuss. He also brought the wipers back. Most of the shit ones were from the bloke in 15.
A bigger problem with our "exits" is we rely on kicks from 9, which as a nation we aren't that good at. And then occasionally one of our brains trust will try a fucking chip kick. Throw in our super lazy kick chase, and if we don't put it out, we are immediately under pressure again.
@mariner4life said in NZ First Five Crisis:
. Throw in our super lazy kick chase,
not just lazy, feels very disorganised. A good chase can turn an average kick into a bloody good one. It pressures people. We don't do it well.
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@Dan54 said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Crazy-Horse Genuinely wonder if there not an argument for Stevenson to be looked at , although I have tended to never be a huge fan, I think hos boot etc would strengthen us at 15?
Defence is a massive issue, particularly in Tests.
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Dan54 said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Crazy-Horse Genuinely wonder if there not an argument for Stevenson to be looked at , although I have tended to never be a huge fan, I think hos boot etc would strengthen us at 15?
Defence is a massive issue, particularly in Tests.
Yep, the last thing we need in our current backline is a mercurial turnstile at 15.
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i must be remembering the SA tests differently. DMac repeatedly exited from deep in our own end to up by halfway with minimum fuss. He also brought the wipers back. Most of the shit ones were from the bloke in 15.
A bigger problem with our "exits" is we rely on kicks from 9, which as a nation we aren't that good at. And then occasionally one of our brains trust will try a fucking chip kick. Throw in our super lazy kick chase, and if we don't put it out, we are immediately under pressure again.
@mariner4life said in NZ First Five Crisis:
i must be remembering the SA tests differently. DMac repeatedly exited from deep in our own end to up by halfway with minimum fuss. He also brought the wipers back. Most of the shit ones were from the bloke in 15.
A bigger problem with our "exits" is we rely on kicks from 9, which as a nation we aren't that good at. And then occasionally one of our brains trust will try a fucking chip kick. Throw in our super lazy kick chase, and if we don't put it out, we are immediately under pressure again.
I didn't see the first game after finding out the result in the morning, and I get confused with South African locations, but am I right in thinking that game was at altitude? That could explain DMac's distance there. As for the second test, DMac's distance seemed about normal for him.
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I think DMac is the best we have, his quick feet and hands at least give us a little bit of a counter against the rush defence. Put anyone else in and it would only be worse.
You could criticsie his decision making and error rate and that's fair but I would say a lot of that is him tryng to pull a rabbit out of the hat because his forwards aren't giving him a platform or go-forward ball to work off.
Simply put I think anyone less nimble than DMac would simply get hammered behind the advantage line and we'd be even worse off.
Our forward pack need to find some go-forward and fast, otherwise all we have left is frantic scrambling trying to make something out of very little.
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One thing I think everyone needs to note is that Dmac is doing this with a revolving door at halfback. There is bugger all consistency at the key positions he is in constant communication with. 9 and 15. This plays a huge role in any 10’s game simply because how different halfbacks and fullbacks can be. There’s needs to be consistency. He’s already had 3 different fullbacks in 7 tests so far this year as well as the rotating 9 jersey.
What Mounga had the benefit of was Aaron Smith at 9 in more for less every single test and he knew what he was going to get. Dmac has not had this luxury and that it is incredibly important to how a 10 plays. Shit, even DC in 2015 said how important it was to have Smith as his 9 at that World Cup and it bought him that extra split second. Smith loss isn’t talked about enough about how massive of a loss he is to the squad.
Dmac will improve with time in the saddle, but more importantly more consistent time with those around him in key positions. At the moment, those 2 are only Jordie Barrett and Rieko and they aren’t exactly lighting it up at the moment.
I strongly believe this is a major factor when it comes to Dmacs up and down play from week to week. Hopefully Ratima is left at 9 so can carry on building from that Chiefs combination that worked so well.
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@Mr-Fish said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
neither of them are close to that superstar level though
hah! Just set the bar at GOAT level please!
They are not close to that; DMac probably has the potential with his speed and long passing game ... but they can do a job for the ABs.
Maybe it is reactionary, but that loss in Cape Town felt big for McKenzie's ABs career. I'd expect him to hold onto the jersey for now, so he has a chance to work his way back, but he failed to take that game by the scruff of the neck, and I really just see Mo'unga coming back and taking the jersey.
I'm also unsure how well McKenzie will age as a player - quite heavily reliant on pace?
What I really mean, is who is our next World Class 10, the next ABs 10 who is in the best in the world category? Maybe I am harsh, but I think at best McKenzie is a Top 5 in the world. I have Pollard, Sacha, Russell and Smith (at the very least) ahead of him.
Smith??
Pollard is overrated as a 10 - does the basics very well
Given Pollard has won back-to-back World Cups I would say he is underrated and doing the basics very well is what being an international Number 10 is all about.
@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Mr-Fish said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
neither of them are close to that superstar level though
hah! Just set the bar at GOAT level please!
They are not close to that; DMac probably has the potential with his speed and long passing game ... but they can do a job for the ABs.
Maybe it is reactionary, but that loss in Cape Town felt big for McKenzie's ABs career. I'd expect him to hold onto the jersey for now, so he has a chance to work his way back, but he failed to take that game by the scruff of the neck, and I really just see Mo'unga coming back and taking the jersey.
I'm also unsure how well McKenzie will age as a player - quite heavily reliant on pace?
What I really mean, is who is our next World Class 10, the next ABs 10 who is in the best in the world category? Maybe I am harsh, but I think at best McKenzie is a Top 5 in the world. I have Pollard, Sacha, Russell and Smith (at the very least) ahead of him.
Smith??
Pollard is overrated as a 10 - does the basics very well
Given Pollard has won back-to-back World Cups I would say he is underrated and doing the basics very well is what being an international Number 10 is all about.
He is the Glenn McGrath of rugby just going about his business doing the basics, nothing too flashy or high risk.
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@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
neither of them are close to that superstar level though
hah! Just set the bar at GOAT level please!
They are not close to that; DMac probably has the potential with his speed and long passing game ... but they can do a job for the ABs.
Maybe it is reactionary, but that loss in Cape Town felt big for McKenzie's ABs career. I'd expect him to hold onto the jersey for now, so he has a chance to work his way back, but he failed to take that game by the scruff of the neck, and I really just see Mo'unga coming back and taking the jersey.
I'm also unsure how well McKenzie will age as a player - quite heavily reliant on pace?
What I really mean, is who is our next World Class 10, the next ABs 10 who is in the best in the world category? Maybe I am harsh, but I think at best McKenzie is a Top 5 in the world. I have Pollard, Sacha, Russell and Smith (at the very least) ahead of him.
When has Mo'unga ever taken a test against a big opponent by the scruff of the neck?
Also he's reliant on pace, McKenzie can actually pass as well as run.@reprobate said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
neither of them are close to that superstar level though
hah! Just set the bar at GOAT level please!
They are not close to that; DMac probably has the potential with his speed and long passing game ... but they can do a job for the ABs.
Maybe it is reactionary, but that loss in Cape Town felt big for McKenzie's ABs career. I'd expect him to hold onto the jersey for now, so he has a chance to work his way back, but he failed to take that game by the scruff of the neck, and I really just see Mo'unga coming back and taking the jersey.
I'm also unsure how well McKenzie will age as a player - quite heavily reliant on pace?
What I really mean, is who is our next World Class 10, the next ABs 10 who is in the best in the world category? Maybe I am harsh, but I think at best McKenzie is a Top 5 in the world. I have Pollard, Sacha, Russell and Smith (at the very least) ahead of him.
When has Mo'unga ever taken a test against a big opponent by the scruff of the neck?
Also he's reliant on pace, McKenzie can actually pass as well as run.maybe here
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@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
neither of them are close to that superstar level though
hah! Just set the bar at GOAT level please!
They are not close to that; DMac probably has the potential with his speed and long passing game ... but they can do a job for the ABs.
Maybe it is reactionary, but that loss in Cape Town felt big for McKenzie's ABs career. I'd expect him to hold onto the jersey for now, so he has a chance to work his way back, but he failed to take that game by the scruff of the neck, and I really just see Mo'unga coming back and taking the jersey.
I'm also unsure how well McKenzie will age as a player - quite heavily reliant on pace?
What I really mean, is who is our next World Class 10, the next ABs 10 who is in the best in the world category? Maybe I am harsh, but I think at best McKenzie is a Top 5 in the world. I have Pollard, Sacha, Russell and Smith (at the very least) ahead of him.
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
neither of them are close to that superstar level though
hah! Just set the bar at GOAT level please!
They are not close to that; DMac probably has the potential with his speed and long passing game ... but they can do a job for the ABs.
Maybe it is reactionary, but that loss in Cape Town felt big for McKenzie's ABs career. I'd expect him to hold onto the jersey for now, so he has a chance to work his way back, but he failed to take that game by the scruff of the neck, and I really just see Mo'unga coming back and taking the jersey.
I'm also unsure how well McKenzie will age as a player - quite heavily reliant on pace?
What I really mean, is who is our next World Class 10, the next ABs 10 who is in the best in the world category? Maybe I am harsh, but I think at best McKenzie is a Top 5 in the world. I have Pollard, Sacha, Russell and Smith (at the very least) ahead of him.
Really? He has better all round skills than them. Having to shorten his approach by 20 seconds may have impacted his kick accuracy slightly, but both those misses were posters, so minimally out. You are rather harsh in my view
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@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Mr-Fish said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
neither of them are close to that superstar level though
hah! Just set the bar at GOAT level please!
They are not close to that; DMac probably has the potential with his speed and long passing game ... but they can do a job for the ABs.
Maybe it is reactionary, but that loss in Cape Town felt big for McKenzie's ABs career. I'd expect him to hold onto the jersey for now, so he has a chance to work his way back, but he failed to take that game by the scruff of the neck, and I really just see Mo'unga coming back and taking the jersey.
I'm also unsure how well McKenzie will age as a player - quite heavily reliant on pace?
What I really mean, is who is our next World Class 10, the next ABs 10 who is in the best in the world category? Maybe I am harsh, but I think at best McKenzie is a Top 5 in the world. I have Pollard, Sacha, Russell and Smith (at the very least) ahead of him.
Smith??
Pollard is overrated as a 10 - does the basics very well
Given Pollard has won back-to-back World Cups I would say he is underrated and doing the basics very well is what being an international Number 10 is all about.
Does that mean that every Springbok who's won back-to-back WCs is underrated...?
I'm not suggesting the basics aren't important, but he's very much a cog in the Springboks machine.
@Mr-Fish said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Mr-Fish said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
neither of them are close to that superstar level though
hah! Just set the bar at GOAT level please!
They are not close to that; DMac probably has the potential with his speed and long passing game ... but they can do a job for the ABs.
Maybe it is reactionary, but that loss in Cape Town felt big for McKenzie's ABs career. I'd expect him to hold onto the jersey for now, so he has a chance to work his way back, but he failed to take that game by the scruff of the neck, and I really just see Mo'unga coming back and taking the jersey.
I'm also unsure how well McKenzie will age as a player - quite heavily reliant on pace?
What I really mean, is who is our next World Class 10, the next ABs 10 who is in the best in the world category? Maybe I am harsh, but I think at best McKenzie is a Top 5 in the world. I have Pollard, Sacha, Russell and Smith (at the very least) ahead of him.
Smith??
Pollard is overrated as a 10 - does the basics very well
Given Pollard has won back-to-back World Cups I would say he is underrated and doing the basics very well is what being an international Number 10 is all about.
he's very much a cog in the Springboks machine.
You say that like it's a bad thing. That's exactly how our players used to see themselves. Cogs in the Black Machine. Then the agents got involved and encouraged players to big themselves up and disaster struck.
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@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Mr-Fish said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
neither of them are close to that superstar level though
hah! Just set the bar at GOAT level please!
They are not close to that; DMac probably has the potential with his speed and long passing game ... but they can do a job for the ABs.
Maybe it is reactionary, but that loss in Cape Town felt big for McKenzie's ABs career. I'd expect him to hold onto the jersey for now, so he has a chance to work his way back, but he failed to take that game by the scruff of the neck, and I really just see Mo'unga coming back and taking the jersey.
I'm also unsure how well McKenzie will age as a player - quite heavily reliant on pace?
What I really mean, is who is our next World Class 10, the next ABs 10 who is in the best in the world category? Maybe I am harsh, but I think at best McKenzie is a Top 5 in the world. I have Pollard, Sacha, Russell and Smith (at the very least) ahead of him.
Smith??
Pollard is overrated as a 10 - does the basics very well
Given Pollard has won back-to-back World Cups I would say he is underrated and doing the basics very well is what being an international Number 10 is all about.
He is the Glenn McGrath of rugby just going about his business doing the basics, nothing too flashy or high risk.
@Nevorian said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Mr-Fish said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
neither of them are close to that superstar level though
hah! Just set the bar at GOAT level please!
They are not close to that; DMac probably has the potential with his speed and long passing game ... but they can do a job for the ABs.
Maybe it is reactionary, but that loss in Cape Town felt big for McKenzie's ABs career. I'd expect him to hold onto the jersey for now, so he has a chance to work his way back, but he failed to take that game by the scruff of the neck, and I really just see Mo'unga coming back and taking the jersey.
I'm also unsure how well McKenzie will age as a player - quite heavily reliant on pace?
What I really mean, is who is our next World Class 10, the next ABs 10 who is in the best in the world category? Maybe I am harsh, but I think at best McKenzie is a Top 5 in the world. I have Pollard, Sacha, Russell and Smith (at the very least) ahead of him.
Smith??
Pollard is overrated as a 10 - does the basics very well
Given Pollard has won back-to-back World Cups I would say he is underrated and doing the basics very well is what being an international Number 10 is all about.
He is the Glenn McGrath of rugby just going about his business doing the basics, nothing too flashy or high risk.
Give me 23 "Glenn McGraths of Rugby" and we'll conquer the world.
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@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
It beggars belief to me that the All Blacks' exit work has been consistently appalling since 2016. It's as though successive coaches don't see this basic, fundamental part of the game as terribly important.
Game after game after game poor exit work has put their sides under needless pressure.
What do you suggest they do to improve the exits? I think they are incredibly hamstrung in this department from a lack of a consistently accurate long punter.
@Crazy-Horse said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
It beggars belief to me that the All Blacks' exit work has been consistently appalling since 2016. It's as though successive coaches don't see this basic, fundamental part of the game as terribly important.
Game after game after game poor exit work has put their sides under needless pressure.
What do you suggest they do to improve the exits? I think they are incredibly hamstrung in this department from a lack of a consistently accurate long punter.
If everyone else has failed so far, why is there so much resistance to Plummer? His kicking game was pretty solid for the Blues' IIRC
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@Mr-Fish said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Mr-Fish said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
neither of them are close to that superstar level though
hah! Just set the bar at GOAT level please!
They are not close to that; DMac probably has the potential with his speed and long passing game ... but they can do a job for the ABs.
Maybe it is reactionary, but that loss in Cape Town felt big for McKenzie's ABs career. I'd expect him to hold onto the jersey for now, so he has a chance to work his way back, but he failed to take that game by the scruff of the neck, and I really just see Mo'unga coming back and taking the jersey.
I'm also unsure how well McKenzie will age as a player - quite heavily reliant on pace?
What I really mean, is who is our next World Class 10, the next ABs 10 who is in the best in the world category? Maybe I am harsh, but I think at best McKenzie is a Top 5 in the world. I have Pollard, Sacha, Russell and Smith (at the very least) ahead of him.
Smith??
Pollard is overrated as a 10 - does the basics very well
Given Pollard has won back-to-back World Cups I would say he is underrated and doing the basics very well is what being an international Number 10 is all about.
he's very much a cog in the Springboks machine.
You say that like it's a bad thing. That's exactly how our players used to see themselves. Cogs in the Black Machine. Then the agents got involved and encouraged players to big themselves up and disaster struck.
@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Mr-Fish said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Mr-Fish said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
neither of them are close to that superstar level though
hah! Just set the bar at GOAT level please!
They are not close to that; DMac probably has the potential with his speed and long passing game ... but they can do a job for the ABs.
Maybe it is reactionary, but that loss in Cape Town felt big for McKenzie's ABs career. I'd expect him to hold onto the jersey for now, so he has a chance to work his way back, but he failed to take that game by the scruff of the neck, and I really just see Mo'unga coming back and taking the jersey.
I'm also unsure how well McKenzie will age as a player - quite heavily reliant on pace?
What I really mean, is who is our next World Class 10, the next ABs 10 who is in the best in the world category? Maybe I am harsh, but I think at best McKenzie is a Top 5 in the world. I have Pollard, Sacha, Russell and Smith (at the very least) ahead of him.
Smith??
Pollard is overrated as a 10 - does the basics very well
Given Pollard has won back-to-back World Cups I would say he is underrated and doing the basics very well is what being an international Number 10 is all about.
he's very much a cog in the Springboks machine.
You say that like it's a bad thing. That's exactly how our players used to see themselves. Cogs in the Black Machine. Then the agents got involved and encouraged players to big themselves up and disaster struck.
It's not a bad thing - it totally suits the Springboks game. That doesn't mean he's a fantastic player. More a Derick Hougaard than a Dan Carter - and that's largely worked for the Boks.
Pollard had oodles of potential and could've been world-class with more ambitious coaching.
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RE-OPENS THREAD
I can't believe I'm saying this but Plummer just has to have a crack. DMac is not the one.
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
RE-OPENS THREAD
I can't believe I'm saying this but Plummer just has to have a crack. DMac is not the one.
I agree. I don't know if he is the answer. But
There is little downside, and far more upside in the context of the search for the 10 to take us forward
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@Crazy-Horse Genuinely wonder if there not an argument for Stevenson to be looked at , although I have tended to never be a huge fan, I think hos boot etc would strengthen us at 15?
@Dan54 said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Crazy-Horse Genuinely wonder if there not an argument for Stevenson to be looked at , although I have tended to never be a huge fan, I think hos boot etc would strengthen us at 15?
Watch the game vs Northalnd on Saturday and you will quickly dismiss teh idea of Stevenson being in black
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@Dan54 said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Crazy-Horse Genuinely wonder if there not an argument for Stevenson to be looked at , although I have tended to never be a huge fan, I think hos boot etc would strengthen us at 15?
Watch the game vs Northalnd on Saturday and you will quickly dismiss teh idea of Stevenson being in black
@Machpants said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Dan54 said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Crazy-Horse Genuinely wonder if there not an argument for Stevenson to be looked at , although I have tended to never be a huge fan, I think hos boot etc would strengthen us at 15?
Watch the game vs Northalnd on Saturday and you will quickly dismiss teh idea of Stevenson being in black
Yep nate, said same to my Mrs, I always thought he would make a few cock ups that were costly, but had hoped he got over them. But certainly reminded me in that game!
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@Machpants said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Dan54 said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Crazy-Horse Genuinely wonder if there not an argument for Stevenson to be looked at , although I have tended to never be a huge fan, I think hos boot etc would strengthen us at 15?
Watch the game vs Northalnd on Saturday and you will quickly dismiss teh idea of Stevenson being in black
Yep nate, said same to my Mrs, I always thought he would make a few cock ups that were costly, but had hoped he got over them. But certainly reminded me in that game!
@Dan54 said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Machpants said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Dan54 said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Crazy-Horse Genuinely wonder if there not an argument for Stevenson to be looked at , although I have tended to never be a huge fan, I think hos boot etc would strengthen us at 15?
Watch the game vs Northalnd on Saturday and you will quickly dismiss teh idea of Stevenson being in black
Yep nate, said same to my Mrs, I always thought he would make a few cock ups that were costly, but had hoped he got over them. But certainly reminded me in that game!
I also watched outside what the camera would've been, no effort and sulky attitude the whole time once they were under the pump
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A shame as Stevenson has the talent if not the application.
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Think this deserves its own thread. New Zealand's first five stocks are the worst they have been in quite some time.
ABs went from Fox to Mehrtens to Carter to Barrett to Mo'unga over a period of 40 years, so no doubt we were spoilt, but think it is getting a bit concerning.
Outside of those guys, we have had the likes of Cruden, Slade, Spencer etc. who filled in intermittently and were still some of the world's best. Even a guy like Lima Sopoaga played only 16 tests - maybe I'm looking at it through Highlanders tinted glasses, but I think if you take his form from 2014-2017, he'd walk into the 10 jersey?
Currently we have DMac, who just is not there is a starting All Blacks first five. Is he the best we have got? Yes, but not a chance are we winning a World Cup with him at 10. A next best option? A 33 year old Beauden Barrett who hasn't been a trusted ABs first five in over half a decade. Our third best option? Harry Plummer...
In 2015, we went to the World Cup with Carter, Barrett and Slade, leaving an injured Cruden and Sopoaga at home - I'd argue that is five better 10s then we have now!
The big concern, is that there isn't much on the horizon. Outside of the current mob, you have Perofeta, Love, Sullivan (all provably better at 15) and Cameron (Not up to it).
The only two young guys with any sort of case are Jacomb and Millar who have 14 Super Rugby games between them, and are surely miles off ABs level. Do you take a gamble on one or both? I think both would have to be in the NZ XV, if not having one of them in the full squad. There is no future in Harry Plummer.
@frugby there's seems to be too many road blocks to players playing. If Super Rugby doesn't expand with top teir teams to give more game time then I would like to see a development grade, just to keep these guys playing, ready for a step up to too SR or Tests.
Too me guys like Sullivan, Burke, Godfrey, have been delayed to develop first five ability with limited Game time.
Also reduce the ABs squad and put those in the ABXV, really get that level going against other countries.
