NZ First Five Crisis
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@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Mr-Fish said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
neither of them are close to that superstar level though
hah! Just set the bar at GOAT level please!
They are not close to that; DMac probably has the potential with his speed and long passing game ... but they can do a job for the ABs.
Maybe it is reactionary, but that loss in Cape Town felt big for McKenzie's ABs career. I'd expect him to hold onto the jersey for now, so he has a chance to work his way back, but he failed to take that game by the scruff of the neck, and I really just see Mo'unga coming back and taking the jersey.
I'm also unsure how well McKenzie will age as a player - quite heavily reliant on pace?
What I really mean, is who is our next World Class 10, the next ABs 10 who is in the best in the world category? Maybe I am harsh, but I think at best McKenzie is a Top 5 in the world. I have Pollard, Sacha, Russell and Smith (at the very least) ahead of him.
Smith??
Pollard is overrated as a 10 - does the basics very well
Given Pollard has won back-to-back World Cups I would say he is underrated and doing the basics very well is what being an international Number 10 is all about.
He is the Glenn McGrath of rugby just going about his business doing the basics, nothing too flashy or high risk.
@Nevorian said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Mr-Fish said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
neither of them are close to that superstar level though
hah! Just set the bar at GOAT level please!
They are not close to that; DMac probably has the potential with his speed and long passing game ... but they can do a job for the ABs.
Maybe it is reactionary, but that loss in Cape Town felt big for McKenzie's ABs career. I'd expect him to hold onto the jersey for now, so he has a chance to work his way back, but he failed to take that game by the scruff of the neck, and I really just see Mo'unga coming back and taking the jersey.
I'm also unsure how well McKenzie will age as a player - quite heavily reliant on pace?
What I really mean, is who is our next World Class 10, the next ABs 10 who is in the best in the world category? Maybe I am harsh, but I think at best McKenzie is a Top 5 in the world. I have Pollard, Sacha, Russell and Smith (at the very least) ahead of him.
Smith??
Pollard is overrated as a 10 - does the basics very well
Given Pollard has won back-to-back World Cups I would say he is underrated and doing the basics very well is what being an international Number 10 is all about.
He is the Glenn McGrath of rugby just going about his business doing the basics, nothing too flashy or high risk.
Give me 23 "Glenn McGraths of Rugby" and we'll conquer the world.
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@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
It beggars belief to me that the All Blacks' exit work has been consistently appalling since 2016. It's as though successive coaches don't see this basic, fundamental part of the game as terribly important.
Game after game after game poor exit work has put their sides under needless pressure.
What do you suggest they do to improve the exits? I think they are incredibly hamstrung in this department from a lack of a consistently accurate long punter.
@Crazy-Horse said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
It beggars belief to me that the All Blacks' exit work has been consistently appalling since 2016. It's as though successive coaches don't see this basic, fundamental part of the game as terribly important.
Game after game after game poor exit work has put their sides under needless pressure.
What do you suggest they do to improve the exits? I think they are incredibly hamstrung in this department from a lack of a consistently accurate long punter.
If everyone else has failed so far, why is there so much resistance to Plummer? His kicking game was pretty solid for the Blues' IIRC
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@Mr-Fish said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Mr-Fish said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
neither of them are close to that superstar level though
hah! Just set the bar at GOAT level please!
They are not close to that; DMac probably has the potential with his speed and long passing game ... but they can do a job for the ABs.
Maybe it is reactionary, but that loss in Cape Town felt big for McKenzie's ABs career. I'd expect him to hold onto the jersey for now, so he has a chance to work his way back, but he failed to take that game by the scruff of the neck, and I really just see Mo'unga coming back and taking the jersey.
I'm also unsure how well McKenzie will age as a player - quite heavily reliant on pace?
What I really mean, is who is our next World Class 10, the next ABs 10 who is in the best in the world category? Maybe I am harsh, but I think at best McKenzie is a Top 5 in the world. I have Pollard, Sacha, Russell and Smith (at the very least) ahead of him.
Smith??
Pollard is overrated as a 10 - does the basics very well
Given Pollard has won back-to-back World Cups I would say he is underrated and doing the basics very well is what being an international Number 10 is all about.
he's very much a cog in the Springboks machine.
You say that like it's a bad thing. That's exactly how our players used to see themselves. Cogs in the Black Machine. Then the agents got involved and encouraged players to big themselves up and disaster struck.
@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Mr-Fish said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Mr-Fish said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
neither of them are close to that superstar level though
hah! Just set the bar at GOAT level please!
They are not close to that; DMac probably has the potential with his speed and long passing game ... but they can do a job for the ABs.
Maybe it is reactionary, but that loss in Cape Town felt big for McKenzie's ABs career. I'd expect him to hold onto the jersey for now, so he has a chance to work his way back, but he failed to take that game by the scruff of the neck, and I really just see Mo'unga coming back and taking the jersey.
I'm also unsure how well McKenzie will age as a player - quite heavily reliant on pace?
What I really mean, is who is our next World Class 10, the next ABs 10 who is in the best in the world category? Maybe I am harsh, but I think at best McKenzie is a Top 5 in the world. I have Pollard, Sacha, Russell and Smith (at the very least) ahead of him.
Smith??
Pollard is overrated as a 10 - does the basics very well
Given Pollard has won back-to-back World Cups I would say he is underrated and doing the basics very well is what being an international Number 10 is all about.
he's very much a cog in the Springboks machine.
You say that like it's a bad thing. That's exactly how our players used to see themselves. Cogs in the Black Machine. Then the agents got involved and encouraged players to big themselves up and disaster struck.
It's not a bad thing - it totally suits the Springboks game. That doesn't mean he's a fantastic player. More a Derick Hougaard than a Dan Carter - and that's largely worked for the Boks.
Pollard had oodles of potential and could've been world-class with more ambitious coaching.
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RE-OPENS THREAD
I can't believe I'm saying this but Plummer just has to have a crack. DMac is not the one.
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
RE-OPENS THREAD
I can't believe I'm saying this but Plummer just has to have a crack. DMac is not the one.
I agree. I don't know if he is the answer. But
There is little downside, and far more upside in the context of the search for the 10 to take us forward
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@Crazy-Horse Genuinely wonder if there not an argument for Stevenson to be looked at , although I have tended to never be a huge fan, I think hos boot etc would strengthen us at 15?
@Dan54 said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Crazy-Horse Genuinely wonder if there not an argument for Stevenson to be looked at , although I have tended to never be a huge fan, I think hos boot etc would strengthen us at 15?
Watch the game vs Northalnd on Saturday and you will quickly dismiss teh idea of Stevenson being in black
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@Dan54 said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Crazy-Horse Genuinely wonder if there not an argument for Stevenson to be looked at , although I have tended to never be a huge fan, I think hos boot etc would strengthen us at 15?
Watch the game vs Northalnd on Saturday and you will quickly dismiss teh idea of Stevenson being in black
@Machpants said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Dan54 said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Crazy-Horse Genuinely wonder if there not an argument for Stevenson to be looked at , although I have tended to never be a huge fan, I think hos boot etc would strengthen us at 15?
Watch the game vs Northalnd on Saturday and you will quickly dismiss teh idea of Stevenson being in black
Yep nate, said same to my Mrs, I always thought he would make a few cock ups that were costly, but had hoped he got over them. But certainly reminded me in that game!
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@Machpants said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Dan54 said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Crazy-Horse Genuinely wonder if there not an argument for Stevenson to be looked at , although I have tended to never be a huge fan, I think hos boot etc would strengthen us at 15?
Watch the game vs Northalnd on Saturday and you will quickly dismiss teh idea of Stevenson being in black
Yep nate, said same to my Mrs, I always thought he would make a few cock ups that were costly, but had hoped he got over them. But certainly reminded me in that game!
@Dan54 said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Machpants said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Dan54 said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Crazy-Horse Genuinely wonder if there not an argument for Stevenson to be looked at , although I have tended to never be a huge fan, I think hos boot etc would strengthen us at 15?
Watch the game vs Northalnd on Saturday and you will quickly dismiss teh idea of Stevenson being in black
Yep nate, said same to my Mrs, I always thought he would make a few cock ups that were costly, but had hoped he got over them. But certainly reminded me in that game!
I also watched outside what the camera would've been, no effort and sulky attitude the whole time once they were under the pump
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A shame as Stevenson has the talent if not the application.
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Think this deserves its own thread. New Zealand's first five stocks are the worst they have been in quite some time.
ABs went from Fox to Mehrtens to Carter to Barrett to Mo'unga over a period of 40 years, so no doubt we were spoilt, but think it is getting a bit concerning.
Outside of those guys, we have had the likes of Cruden, Slade, Spencer etc. who filled in intermittently and were still some of the world's best. Even a guy like Lima Sopoaga played only 16 tests - maybe I'm looking at it through Highlanders tinted glasses, but I think if you take his form from 2014-2017, he'd walk into the 10 jersey?
Currently we have DMac, who just is not there is a starting All Blacks first five. Is he the best we have got? Yes, but not a chance are we winning a World Cup with him at 10. A next best option? A 33 year old Beauden Barrett who hasn't been a trusted ABs first five in over half a decade. Our third best option? Harry Plummer...
In 2015, we went to the World Cup with Carter, Barrett and Slade, leaving an injured Cruden and Sopoaga at home - I'd argue that is five better 10s then we have now!
The big concern, is that there isn't much on the horizon. Outside of the current mob, you have Perofeta, Love, Sullivan (all provably better at 15) and Cameron (Not up to it).
The only two young guys with any sort of case are Jacomb and Millar who have 14 Super Rugby games between them, and are surely miles off ABs level. Do you take a gamble on one or both? I think both would have to be in the NZ XV, if not having one of them in the full squad. There is no future in Harry Plummer.
@frugby there's seems to be too many road blocks to players playing. If Super Rugby doesn't expand with top teir teams to give more game time then I would like to see a development grade, just to keep these guys playing, ready for a step up to too SR or Tests.
Too me guys like Sullivan, Burke, Godfrey, have been delayed to develop first five ability with limited Game time.
Also reduce the ABs squad and put those in the ABXV, really get that level going against other countries. -
It is alarming how many tens are simply not getting enough game time at Super level and simply being snapped up by clubs in the Northern Hemisphere. Massive issue, we need to be bringing some of this offshore talent home. Richie Mo is the most extreme example, the three mention by Trig is a real concern.
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@frugby there's seems to be too many road blocks to players playing. If Super Rugby doesn't expand with top teir teams to give more game time then I would like to see a development grade, just to keep these guys playing, ready for a step up to too SR or Tests.
Too me guys like Sullivan, Burke, Godfrey, have been delayed to develop first five ability with limited Game time.
Also reduce the ABs squad and put those in the ABXV, really get that level going against other countries.@BorderJB said in NZ First Five Crisis:
Godfrey
Are you a @Canes4life multi?
Godfrey looked bloody average at 10 when he played there this year, fullback is his current best position. The Canes need to put him in their development team as a 10 to get him more experience.
@Trig None of those 10s have looked AB level, even Ioane who played for the ABs. Of the 3 only Burke appears a real loss outside of depth as someone who could develop into a test 10. Morgan was dross and since making the ABs Ioane has just got shitter and shitter.
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@BorderJB said in NZ First Five Crisis:
Godfrey
Are you a @Canes4life multi?
Godfrey looked bloody average at 10 when he played there this year, fullback is his current best position. The Canes need to put him in their development team as a 10 to get him more experience.
@Trig None of those 10s have looked AB level, even Ioane who played for the ABs. Of the 3 only Burke appears a real loss outside of depth as someone who could develop into a test 10. Morgan was dross and since making the ABs Ioane has just got shitter and shitter.
@Nepia said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@BorderJB said in NZ First Five Crisis:
Godfrey
Are you a @Canes4life multi?
Godfrey looked bloody average at 10 when he played there this year, fullback is his current best position. The Canes need to put him in their development team as a 10 to get him more experience.
@Trig None of those 10s have looked AB level, even Ioane who played for the ABs. Of the 3 only Burke appears a real loss outside of depth as someone who could develop into a test 10. Morgan was dross and since making the ABs Ioane has just got shitter and shitter.
I'm more concerned about the development of the 10s that stay. No one apart from Plummer could be considered an orthodox 10. Unorthodox is the NZ orthodoxy right now
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@BorderJB said in NZ First Five Crisis:
Godfrey
Are you a @Canes4life multi?
Godfrey looked bloody average at 10 when he played there this year, fullback is his current best position. The Canes need to put him in their development team as a 10 to get him more experience.
@Trig None of those 10s have looked AB level, even Ioane who played for the ABs. Of the 3 only Burke appears a real loss outside of depth as someone who could develop into a test 10. Morgan was dross and since making the ABs Ioane has just got shitter and shitter.
@Nepia said in NZ First Five Crisis:
None of those 10s have looked AB level, even Ioane who played for the ABs.
I agree. If all three were still playing NPC in NZ currently Plummer would still be ahead of them in ABs conversations. However, they will look set to get plenty of game time as their teams first 5s and I don't think it'll be long before Burke puts his Scottish or English passports to use because of this.
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@Nepia said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@BorderJB said in NZ First Five Crisis:
Godfrey
Are you a @Canes4life multi?
Godfrey looked bloody average at 10 when he played there this year, fullback is his current best position. The Canes need to put him in their development team as a 10 to get him more experience.
@Trig None of those 10s have looked AB level, even Ioane who played for the ABs. Of the 3 only Burke appears a real loss outside of depth as someone who could develop into a test 10. Morgan was dross and since making the ABs Ioane has just got shitter and shitter.
I'm more concerned about the development of the 10s that stay. No one apart from Plummer could be considered an orthodox 10. Unorthodox is the NZ orthodoxy right now
@canefan said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Nepia said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@BorderJB said in NZ First Five Crisis:
Godfrey
Are you a @Canes4life multi?
Godfrey looked bloody average at 10 when he played there this year, fullback is his current best position. The Canes need to put him in their development team as a 10 to get him more experience.
@Trig None of those 10s have looked AB level, even Ioane who played for the ABs. Of the 3 only Burke appears a real loss outside of depth as someone who could develop into a test 10. Morgan was dross and since making the ABs Ioane has just got shitter and shitter.
I'm more concerned about the development of the 10s that stay. No one apart from Plummer could be considered an orthodox 10. Unorthodox is the NZ orthodoxy right now
Of those one's who've left only Burke seems orthodox. McClutchie is fairly orthodox and he can't get a run at the Canes, so maybe you're right.
Even if Mo was still here we'd have two unorthodox 10s to complain about and Plummer likely wouldn't get a look in.
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@Nepia said in NZ First Five Crisis:
None of those 10s have looked AB level, even Ioane who played for the ABs.
I agree. If all three were still playing NPC in NZ currently Plummer would still be ahead of them in ABs conversations. However, they will look set to get plenty of game time as their teams first 5s and I don't think it'll be long before Burke puts his Scottish or English passports to use because of this.
@Trig said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Nepia said in NZ First Five Crisis:
None of those 10s have looked AB level, even Ioane who played for the ABs.
I agree. If all three were still playing NPC in NZ currently Plummer would still be ahead of them in ABs conversations. However, they will look set to get plenty of game time as their teams first 5s and I don't think it'll be long before Burke puts his Scottish or English passports to use because of this.
Considering Burke is from the Crusaders maybe he got the word from Razor that he was unlikely to get a shot? Seems a weird time for him to go otherwise.
Why don't the Crusaders 10s like Razor, they both ran away from him.
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@dogmeat said in NZ First Five Crisis:
There were only 13 tests between Fox and Mehrts - but it seemed like an eternity.
Do people think Fox would get a look in today? I doubt he'd make Super Rugby TBH. Doesn't fit NZ DNA and therein lies the problem. Doing the fundamentals right 99% of the time and playing the percentages doesn't jiggle NZ rugby's ovaries nowadays.
The Fox coming up through the NZ system today would be a markedly different beast, he'd still have all the control, but he'd have more muscle/size and the running game he had as a youngster wouldn't be as easily dispensed with.
I think talent is talent, and Fox had it, he was a symptom of his era.
@Nepia Fox had massive mental fortitude and intelligence, could land the ball on a dime.
Only thing missing top end speed.
