All Blacks 2024
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
I've watched Haig closely at Super Rugby and I do think he has potential but he hasn't done anything more than those other guys imo. All of those guys mentioned are NZ XV level. The Highlanders are on an upward curve so he has the opportunity to keep improving.
As someone has implied none of those players have the raw athleticism of Jerome Kaino.
That's why Finau can't be written off. He's the best raw athlete we have out of those bigger options. Finau did enough to help us secure our only wins so far this year against a top 5 team.
When Finau was subbed in both tests, we were losing so that just isn't true. You need more than athletic ability to succeed... people weren't calling for us to select Frizell just because he had athletic ability. At some point, he needed to offer more, and so far he has not done that. I think he is fortunate to be in the EOYT squad.
@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
I've watched Haig closely at Super Rugby and I do think he has potential but he hasn't done anything more than those other guys imo. All of those guys mentioned are NZ XV level. The Highlanders are on an upward curve so he has the opportunity to keep improving.
As someone has implied none of those players have the raw athleticism of Jerome Kaino.
That's why Finau can't be written off. He's the best raw athlete we have out of those bigger options. Finau did enough to help us secure our only wins so far this year against a top 5 team.
When Finau was subbed in both tests, we were losing so that just isn't true. You need more than athletic ability to succeed... people weren't calling for us to select Frizell just because he had athletic ability. At some point, he needed to offer more, and so far he has not done that. I think he is fortunate to be in the EOYT squad.
May be a harsh take. I was trying to work out what instructions he had for those England matches. Wasn't used as a lineout option. Stationed out wide at times but play not directed there when he was. Others used as the runner when he was near the ruck. As a fan I was quite annoyed at how underused he appeared to be when subbed. Whether he was doing what the game plan asked him to do is debatable. But his aerial ability, athleticism and strength in contact are his pluses. Wallace Sititi is far more of an opportunist and scavenger who looks for opportunities to get involved. So the real question re Finau is how quickly he can learn to do both the structured and unstructured stuff in an international environment. I have the feeling that he needs involvement in plays early on to fire up. Same goes for some of our wingers and locks.
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
I've watched Haig closely at Super Rugby and I do think he has potential but he hasn't done anything more than those other guys imo. All of those guys mentioned are NZ XV level. The Highlanders are on an upward curve so he has the opportunity to keep improving.
As someone has implied none of those players have the raw athleticism of Jerome Kaino.
That's why Finau can't be written off. He's the best raw athlete we have out of those bigger options. Finau did enough to help us secure our only wins so far this year against a top 5 team.
When Finau was subbed in both tests, we were losing so that just isn't true. You need more than athletic ability to succeed... people weren't calling for us to select Frizell just because he had athletic ability. At some point, he needed to offer more, and so far he has not done that. I think he is fortunate to be in the EOYT squad.
May be a harsh take. I was trying to work out what instructions he had for those England matches. Wasn't used as a lineout option. Stationed out wide at times but play not directed there when he was. Others used as the runner when he was near the ruck. As a fan I was quite annoyed at how underused he appeared to be when subbed. Whether he was doing what the game plan asked him to do is debatable. But his aerial ability, athleticism and strength in contact are his pluses. Wallace Sititi is far more of an opportunist and scavenger who looks for opportunities to get involved. So the real question re Finau is how quickly he can learn to do both the structured and unstructured stuff in an international environment. I have the feeling that he needs involvement in plays early on to fire up. Same goes for some of our wingers and locks.
@ARHS said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
I've watched Haig closely at Super Rugby and I do think he has potential but he hasn't done anything more than those other guys imo. All of those guys mentioned are NZ XV level. The Highlanders are on an upward curve so he has the opportunity to keep improving.
As someone has implied none of those players have the raw athleticism of Jerome Kaino.
That's why Finau can't be written off. He's the best raw athlete we have out of those bigger options. Finau did enough to help us secure our only wins so far this year against a top 5 team.
When Finau was subbed in both tests, we were losing so that just isn't true. You need more than athletic ability to succeed... people weren't calling for us to select Frizell just because he had athletic ability. At some point, he needed to offer more, and so far he has not done that. I think he is fortunate to be in the EOYT squad.
May be a harsh take. I was trying to work out what instructions he had for those England matches. Wasn't used as a lineout option. Stationed out wide at times but play not directed there when he was. Others used as the runner when he was near the ruck. As a fan I was quite annoyed at how underused he appeared to be when subbed. Whether he was doing what the game plan asked him to do is debatable. But his aerial ability, athleticism and strength in contact are his pluses. Wallace Sititi is far more of an opportunist and scavenger who looks for opportunities to get involved. So the real question re Finau is how quickly he can learn to do both the structured and unstructured stuff in an international environment. I have the feeling that he needs involvement in plays early on to fire up. Same goes for some of our wingers and locks.
I suspect like Frizell and A Ioane before him, he possibly lacks a few rugby smarts. Sititi is very intelligent in the way he plays, where he pops up etc.
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@ARHS said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
I've watched Haig closely at Super Rugby and I do think he has potential but he hasn't done anything more than those other guys imo. All of those guys mentioned are NZ XV level. The Highlanders are on an upward curve so he has the opportunity to keep improving.
As someone has implied none of those players have the raw athleticism of Jerome Kaino.
That's why Finau can't be written off. He's the best raw athlete we have out of those bigger options. Finau did enough to help us secure our only wins so far this year against a top 5 team.
When Finau was subbed in both tests, we were losing so that just isn't true. You need more than athletic ability to succeed... people weren't calling for us to select Frizell just because he had athletic ability. At some point, he needed to offer more, and so far he has not done that. I think he is fortunate to be in the EOYT squad.
May be a harsh take. I was trying to work out what instructions he had for those England matches. Wasn't used as a lineout option. Stationed out wide at times but play not directed there when he was. Others used as the runner when he was near the ruck. As a fan I was quite annoyed at how underused he appeared to be when subbed. Whether he was doing what the game plan asked him to do is debatable. But his aerial ability, athleticism and strength in contact are his pluses. Wallace Sititi is far more of an opportunist and scavenger who looks for opportunities to get involved. So the real question re Finau is how quickly he can learn to do both the structured and unstructured stuff in an international environment. I have the feeling that he needs involvement in plays early on to fire up. Same goes for some of our wingers and locks.
I suspect like Frizell and A Ioane before him, he possibly lacks a few rugby smarts. Sititi is very intelligent in the way he plays, where he pops up etc.
@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
@ARHS said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
I've watched Haig closely at Super Rugby and I do think he has potential but he hasn't done anything more than those other guys imo. All of those guys mentioned are NZ XV level. The Highlanders are on an upward curve so he has the opportunity to keep improving.
As someone has implied none of those players have the raw athleticism of Jerome Kaino.
That's why Finau can't be written off. He's the best raw athlete we have out of those bigger options. Finau did enough to help us secure our only wins so far this year against a top 5 team.
When Finau was subbed in both tests, we were losing so that just isn't true. You need more than athletic ability to succeed... people weren't calling for us to select Frizell just because he had athletic ability. At some point, he needed to offer more, and so far he has not done that. I think he is fortunate to be in the EOYT squad.
May be a harsh take. I was trying to work out what instructions he had for those England matches. Wasn't used as a lineout option. Stationed out wide at times but play not directed there when he was. Others used as the runner when he was near the ruck. As a fan I was quite annoyed at how underused he appeared to be when subbed. Whether he was doing what the game plan asked him to do is debatable. But his aerial ability, athleticism and strength in contact are his pluses. Wallace Sititi is far more of an opportunist and scavenger who looks for opportunities to get involved. So the real question re Finau is how quickly he can learn to do both the structured and unstructured stuff in an international environment. I have the feeling that he needs involvement in plays early on to fire up. Same goes for some of our wingers and locks.
I suspect like Frizell and A Ioane before him, he possibly lacks a few rugby smarts. Sititi is very intelligent in the way he plays, where he pops up etc.
It may be that they are all dumbshits, or it could be that playing 6 to a high level on the international stage is far harder than our natural game prepares players for.
PSTD was always talented but even he’s taken some time to become really dominant at the international level. He’s over 30 and the best in the world. That wasn’t true of him in 2013 /3014 when he was breaking though.
I’m pleased they are apparently taking Finau and I hope they know their history and see that developing him from a squaddie to a starter may be the best thing for him.
On Sititi, I think they are just playing two 8s at the moment, so its not surprising that Finau may struggle - he’s a 6/lock not a 6/7/8.
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@SBW1 said in All Blacks 2024:
@SBW1 Saw this today, Frizzel and Mounga are being chased.
Exactly what everyone who watched this year said: we're missing Richie and Shannon.
FFS
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
I've watched Haig closely at Super Rugby and I do think he has potential but he hasn't done anything more than those other guys imo. All of those guys mentioned are NZ XV level. The Highlanders are on an upward curve so he has the opportunity to keep improving.
As someone has implied none of those players have the raw athleticism of Jerome Kaino.
That's why Finau can't be written off. He's the best raw athlete we have out of those bigger options. Finau did enough to help us secure our only wins so far this year against a top 5 team.
When Finau was subbed in both tests, we were losing so that just isn't true. You need more than athletic ability to succeed... people weren't calling for us to select Frizell just because he had athletic ability. At some point, he needed to offer more, and so far he has not done that. I think he is fortunate to be in the EOYT squad.
@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
I've watched Haig closely at Super Rugby and I do think he has potential but he hasn't done anything more than those other guys imo. All of those guys mentioned are NZ XV level. The Highlanders are on an upward curve so he has the opportunity to keep improving.
As someone has implied none of those players have the raw athleticism of Jerome Kaino.
That's why Finau can't be written off. He's the best raw athlete we have out of those bigger options. Finau did enough to help us secure our only wins so far this year against a top 5 team.
When Finau was subbed in both tests, we were losing so that just isn't true. You need more than athletic ability to succeed... people weren't calling for us to select Frizell just because he had athletic ability. At some point, he needed to offer more, and so far he has not done that. I think he is fortunate to be in the EOYT squad.
Do you have a source for that? Seems to be going well against Canterbury.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
I've watched Haig closely at Super Rugby and I do think he has potential but he hasn't done anything more than those other guys imo. All of those guys mentioned are NZ XV level. The Highlanders are on an upward curve so he has the opportunity to keep improving.
As someone has implied none of those players have the raw athleticism of Jerome Kaino.
That's why Finau can't be written off. He's the best raw athlete we have out of those bigger options. Finau did enough to help us secure our only wins so far this year against a top 5 team.
When Finau was subbed in both tests, we were losing so that just isn't true. You need more than athletic ability to succeed... people weren't calling for us to select Frizell just because he had athletic ability. At some point, he needed to offer more, and so far he has not done that. I think he is fortunate to be in the EOYT squad.
Frizell was initially selected as an athletic bolter. He was a Highlanders bench player.
But your claim that Finau did nothing is bogus.
He's third highest from the AB loose forwards for carries, tackles and impacts per 80 minutes. He had a good all round contribution.
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@SBW1 said in All Blacks 2024:
@SBW1 Saw this today, Frizzel and Mounga are being chased.
Exactly what everyone who watched this year said: we're missing Richie and Shannon.
FFS
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@SBW1 said in All Blacks 2024:
@SBW1 Saw this today, Frizzel and Mounga are being chased.
Exactly what everyone who watched this year said: we're missing Richie and Shannon.
FFS
It's not surprising. It's been clear since last year both were going to be chased
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@SBW1 said in All Blacks 2024:
@SBW1 Saw this today, Frizzel and Mounga are being chased.
Exactly what everyone who watched this year said: we're missing Richie and Shannon.
FFS
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@SBW1 said in All Blacks 2024:
@SBW1 Saw this today, Frizzel and Mounga are being chased.
Exactly what everyone who watched this year said: we're missing Richie and Shannon.
FFS
Frizzell would be a bonus, but not sure about Mo'unga. Bit average for me, though there'll always be a bit of man-love for setting up Will Jordan's try against Ireland.
We're 3 years out from a RWC, Robertson's got his feet under the table so I'd really like to see some serious player development as a priority in the next 12 months.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@SBW1 said in All Blacks 2024:
@SBW1 Saw this today, Frizzel and Mounga are being chased.
Exactly what everyone who watched this year said: we're missing Richie and Shannon.
FFS
Frizzell would be a bonus, but not sure about Mo'unga. Bit average for me, though there'll always be a bit of man-love for setting up Will Jordan's try against Ireland.
We're 3 years out from a RWC, Robertson's got his feet under the table so I'd really like to see some serious player development as a priority in the next 12 months.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@SBW1 said in All Blacks 2024:
@SBW1 Saw this today, Frizzel and Mounga are being chased.
Exactly what everyone who watched this year said: we're missing Richie and Shannon.
FFS
Frizzell would be a bonus,.
Did you watch the rwc final? 1 tackle, 1 miss in the entire time he was in the pitch, a lot of that when he was one of only 2 loose forwards. Worst loose forward performance by an ab ever.
He's had one great half in his entire career
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@SBW1 said in All Blacks 2024:
@SBW1 Saw this today, Frizzel and Mounga are being chased.
Exactly what everyone who watched this year said: we're missing Richie and Shannon.
FFS
Frizzell would be a bonus,.
Did you watch the rwc final? 1 tackle, 1 miss in the entire time he was in the pitch, a lot of that when he was one of only 2 loose forwards. Worst loose forward performance by an ab ever.
He's had one great half in his entire career
@Machpants said in All Blacks 2024:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@SBW1 said in All Blacks 2024:
@SBW1 Saw this today, Frizzel and Mounga are being chased.
Exactly what everyone who watched this year said: we're missing Richie and Shannon.
FFS
Frizzell would be a bonus,.
Did you watch the rwc final? 1 tackle, 1 miss in the entire time he was in the pitch, a lot of that when he was one of only 2 loose forwards. Worst loose forward performance by an ab ever.
He's had one great half in his entire career
Not entirely fair.
2 x good games by my reckoning...
...
But not worth chasing beyond what we've got in hand.
Same goes for Fly Half Jesus ...
It's not as if we're chasing prime Kaino and mid-career Carter.
Let them go and develop the next dudes.
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@Machpants said in All Blacks 2024:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@SBW1 said in All Blacks 2024:
@SBW1 Saw this today, Frizzel and Mounga are being chased.
Exactly what everyone who watched this year said: we're missing Richie and Shannon.
FFS
Frizzell would be a bonus,.
Did you watch the rwc final? 1 tackle, 1 miss in the entire time he was in the pitch, a lot of that when he was one of only 2 loose forwards. Worst loose forward performance by an ab ever.
He's had one great half in his entire career
Not entirely fair.
2 x good games by my reckoning...
...
But not worth chasing beyond what we've got in hand.
Same goes for Fly Half Jesus ...
It's not as if we're chasing prime Kaino and mid-career Carter.
Let them go and develop the next dudes.
@booboo aside from Plummer at 10, who hasn’t been tried at 10 that merits it right now? NZ aren’t exactly overflowing with international class 10s right now.
As it goes, NZ does have 2 very good 9s in Ratima and Roigard. I’d say those 2 are as good a duo as any other nation, aside from France. Maybe NZ will change their approach like France, and make 9 the fulcrum of the half back pairing. Doing so means you can play a steadier hand at 10 like Plummer or Perofeta. Their job is to control the game rather than be expected to spark it.
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@Machpants said in All Blacks 2024:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@SBW1 said in All Blacks 2024:
@SBW1 Saw this today, Frizzel and Mounga are being chased.
Exactly what everyone who watched this year said: we're missing Richie and Shannon.
FFS
Frizzell would be a bonus,.
Did you watch the rwc final? 1 tackle, 1 miss in the entire time he was in the pitch, a lot of that when he was one of only 2 loose forwards. Worst loose forward performance by an ab ever.
He's had one great half in his entire career
Not entirely fair.
2 x good games by my reckoning...
...
But not worth chasing beyond what we've got in hand.
Same goes for Fly Half Jesus ...
It's not as if we're chasing prime Kaino and mid-career Carter.
Let them go and develop the next dudes.
@booboo said in All Blacks 2024:
@Machpants said in All Blacks 2024:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@SBW1 said in All Blacks 2024:
@SBW1 Saw this today, Frizzel and Mounga are being chased.
Exactly what everyone who watched this year said: we're missing Richie and Shannon.
FFS
Frizzell would be a bonus,.
Did you watch the rwc final? 1 tackle, 1 miss in the entire time he was in the pitch, a lot of that when he was one of only 2 loose forwards. Worst loose forward performance by an ab ever.
He's had one great half in his entire career
Not entirely fair.
2 x good games by my reckoning...
...
But not worth chasing beyond what we've got in hand.
Same goes for Fly Half Jesus ...
It's not as if we're chasing prime Kaino and mid-career Carter.
Let them go and develop the next dudes.
100% this.
What has happened to the Allblack "entity" or "brand" that we are chasing after Mo'unga and Frizell like lovesick teenagers, while also trying to nurse Sam Cane and TJP through an EOYT?
Similarly we have the likes of Beaudy, Ardie and ALB racking up caps like they are Allblack greats.
When did we become so desperate and how have our stocks become so callow?
We are deifying players who on recent form dont deserve the adulation.
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@booboo said in All Blacks 2024:
@Machpants said in All Blacks 2024:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@SBW1 said in All Blacks 2024:
@SBW1 Saw this today, Frizzel and Mounga are being chased.
Exactly what everyone who watched this year said: we're missing Richie and Shannon.
FFS
Frizzell would be a bonus,.
Did you watch the rwc final? 1 tackle, 1 miss in the entire time he was in the pitch, a lot of that when he was one of only 2 loose forwards. Worst loose forward performance by an ab ever.
He's had one great half in his entire career
Not entirely fair.
2 x good games by my reckoning...
...
But not worth chasing beyond what we've got in hand.
Same goes for Fly Half Jesus ...
It's not as if we're chasing prime Kaino and mid-career Carter.
Let them go and develop the next dudes.
100% this.
What has happened to the Allblack "entity" or "brand" that we are chasing after Mo'unga and Frizell like lovesick teenagers, while also trying to nurse Sam Cane and TJP through an EOYT?
Similarly we have the likes of Beaudy, Ardie and ALB racking up caps like they are Allblack greats.
When did we become so desperate and how have our stocks become so callow?
We are deifying players who on recent form dont deserve the adulation.
@Jet 100% , one of the most rational posts I've read in a long time.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@SBW1 said in All Blacks 2024:
@SBW1 Saw this today, Frizzel and Mounga are being chased.
Exactly what everyone who watched this year said: we're missing Richie and Shannon.
FFS
Frizzell would be a bonus, but not sure about Mo'unga. Bit average for me, though there'll always be a bit of man-love for setting up Will Jordan's try against Ireland.
We're 3 years out from a RWC, Robertson's got his feet under the table so I'd really like to see some serious player development as a priority in the next 12 months.
@Victor-Meldrew and with the sub system available now players can get experience without compromising results.
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@booboo said in All Blacks 2024:
@Machpants said in All Blacks 2024:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@SBW1 said in All Blacks 2024:
@SBW1 Saw this today, Frizzel and Mounga are being chased.
Exactly what everyone who watched this year said: we're missing Richie and Shannon.
FFS
Frizzell would be a bonus,.
Did you watch the rwc final? 1 tackle, 1 miss in the entire time he was in the pitch, a lot of that when he was one of only 2 loose forwards. Worst loose forward performance by an ab ever.
He's had one great half in his entire career
Not entirely fair.
2 x good games by my reckoning...
...
But not worth chasing beyond what we've got in hand.
Same goes for Fly Half Jesus ...
It's not as if we're chasing prime Kaino and mid-career Carter.
Let them go and develop the next dudes.
100% this.
What has happened to the Allblack "entity" or "brand" that we are chasing after Mo'unga and Frizell like lovesick teenagers, while also trying to nurse Sam Cane and TJP through an EOYT?
Similarly we have the likes of Beaudy, Ardie and ALB racking up caps like they are Allblack greats.
When did we become so desperate and how have our stocks become so callow?
We are deifying players who on recent form dont deserve the adulation.
@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
@booboo said in All Blacks 2024:
@Machpants said in All Blacks 2024:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@SBW1 said in All Blacks 2024:
@SBW1 Saw this today, Frizzel and Mounga are being chased.
Exactly what everyone who watched this year said: we're missing Richie and Shannon.
FFS
Frizzell would be a bonus,.
Did you watch the rwc final? 1 tackle, 1 miss in the entire time he was in the pitch, a lot of that when he was one of only 2 loose forwards. Worst loose forward performance by an ab ever.
He's had one great half in his entire career
Not entirely fair.
2 x good games by my reckoning...
...
But not worth chasing beyond what we've got in hand.
Same goes for Fly Half Jesus ...
It's not as if we're chasing prime Kaino and mid-career Carter.
Let them go and develop the next dudes.
100% this.
What has happened to the Allblack "entity" or "brand" that we are chasing after Mo'unga and Frizell like lovesick teenagers, while also trying to nurse Sam Cane and TJP through an EOYT?
Similarly we have the likes of Beaudy, Ardie and ALB racking up caps like they are Allblack greats.
When did we become so desperate and how have our stocks become so callow?
We are deifying players who on recent form dont deserve the adulation.
Yeah agree and how much are the NZRU forking out for these guys to return?
And also, would these guys be getting bought back if the Crusaders weren't struggling (Frizzell included as it's been mentioned that he could return to the Crusaders)?
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Last year I thought DMac was the best and most consistent flyhalf in NZ
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Last year I thought DMac was the best and most consistent flyhalf in NZ
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2024:
Last year I thought DMac was the best and most consistent flyhalf in NZ
As did I, but I think in reality people need to kind of put the provincial biases aside.
I think we are just in a really bad place collectively.To me it looks like our centres arent up to much. Our fly halves arent up to much. Our Backrow isnt up to much. And it doesnt seem to matter which ones we select.
Sititi is exempt from the above criticism, and may have only got his chance anyway thanks to Ethan getting injured.
