All Blacks 2024
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@kpkanz what IS the new system?
my feeling is we're seeing a lot of the same play as we have for the last +4 year, at most its an evolution....but then i wonder if its an evolution....with lots of the same people involved...whats taking so to click?
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2024:
@kpkanz what IS the new system?
my feeling is we're seeing a lot of the same play as we have for the last +4 year, at most its an evolution....but then i wonder if its an evolution....with lots of the same people involved...whats taking so to click?
Not at all. Our attack shape is entirely different.
We didn't have the amount of different lines from support players, the very late passing right at the defense, the general width we are able to reach this year.
It was obvious from the first game how different our attack shape is.
The issue last cycle is we genuinely had the worst attack shape in international rugby. We sent our players out there with nothing to work with but hope one of them breaks a tackle or gets lucky.
The most aggressive defensive systems feasted on us (Ireland/France) while also resulting in much more pressure on the defensive end since we were applying none on the offensive end.
It's no surprise over half of all our wins last cycle were against Australia since they have the old passive defensive system which allows our players to just rely on instinct and find space playing heads up. No intricate lines from runners or late passing required to create the space, their defensive line already provided it.
That's why I'm excited for the first time in years because our attack actually looks more sophisticated and like there has been actual thought put into it. I think we will see the benefits this northern tour.
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2024:
@kpkanz what IS the new system?
my feeling is we're seeing a lot of the same play as we have for the last +4 year, at most its an evolution....but then i wonder if its an evolution....with lots of the same people involved...whats taking so to click?
Not at all. Our attack shape is entirely different.
We didn't have the amount of different lines from support players, the very late passing right at the defense, the general width we are able to reach this year.
It was obvious from the first game how different our attack shape is.
The issue last cycle is we genuinely had the worst attack shape in international rugby. We sent our players out there with nothing to work with but hope one of them breaks a tackle or gets lucky.
The most aggressive defensive systems feasted on us (Ireland/France) while also resulting in much more pressure on the defensive end since we were applying none on the offensive end.
It's no surprise over half of all our wins last cycle were against Australia since they have the old passive defensive system which allows our players to just rely on instinct and find space playing heads up. No intricate lines from runners or late passing required to create the space, their defensive line already provided it.
That's why I'm excited for the first time in years because our attack actually looks more sophisticated and like there has been actual thought put into it. I think we will see the benefits this northern tour.
@kpkanz ok, another question, for the sake of argument lets say i concede the point on our attack structure
do we think its a good move to be implementing it with players like BB and TJP, its obviously a big jump for these guys if it hasn;t quite clicked after 9 tests...are we going to go through this again next year or the year after with the next generation? should he have taken all the pain this year and gone with youth?
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@kpkanz ok, another question, for the sake of argument lets say i concede the point on our attack structure
do we think its a good move to be implementing it with players like BB and TJP, its obviously a big jump for these guys if it hasn;t quite clicked after 9 tests...are we going to go through this again next year or the year after with the next generation? should he have taken all the pain this year and gone with youth?
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2024:
@kpkanz ok, another question, for the sake of argument lets say i concede the point on our attack structure
do we think its a good move to be implementing it with players like BB and TJP, its obviously a big jump for these guys if it hasn;t quite clicked after 9 tests...are we going to go through this again next year or the year after with the next generation? should he have taken all the pain this year and gone with youth?
I imagine Razor wanted to keep the oldheads in for a few tests to nurture/tutor the new young ones that are being brought in.
Tbh I feel like that old group of players is nearly tainted by the losses and horrible records they had over the years. Guys like Ratima/Sititi have come in as if they deserve the win no matter who theyre playing which has been really refreshing.
So I think TJ will be gone after this tour, Razor even hinted at this being the case by talking about TJ/Canes 'roles' on this tour to teach the kids about what it means to be in the ABs and what it means to Tour etc.
As for BB, his last start at 10 recently I think was just to rest Dmac since he'd played every game this year. I don't expect BB to have any serious shot at being the starting 10. If he keeps producing large gaps of not producing anything then Jordan will take the fullback role outright over him as well. I think they prefer Jordan/BB as right wing and fullback to have as many 'great' players on the field as they can but if BB doesn't produce regularly enough they may just start having him come off the bench until Love comes of age.
Probably looking at Jordan/Love as the right wing/fullback combo by next year's French tour.
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2024:
@kpkanz ok, another question, for the sake of argument lets say i concede the point on our attack structure
do we think its a good move to be implementing it with players like BB and TJP, its obviously a big jump for these guys if it hasn;t quite clicked after 9 tests...are we going to go through this again next year or the year after with the next generation? should he have taken all the pain this year and gone with youth?
I imagine Razor wanted to keep the oldheads in for a few tests to nurture/tutor the new young ones that are being brought in.
Tbh I feel like that old group of players is nearly tainted by the losses and horrible records they had over the years. Guys like Ratima/Sititi have come in as if they deserve the win no matter who theyre playing which has been really refreshing.
So I think TJ will be gone after this tour, Razor even hinted at this being the case by talking about TJ/Canes 'roles' on this tour to teach the kids about what it means to be in the ABs and what it means to Tour etc.
As for BB, his last start at 10 recently I think was just to rest Dmac since he'd played every game this year. I don't expect BB to have any serious shot at being the starting 10. If he keeps producing large gaps of not producing anything then Jordan will take the fullback role outright over him as well. I think they prefer Jordan/BB as right wing and fullback to have as many 'great' players on the field as they can but if BB doesn't produce regularly enough they may just start having him come off the bench until Love comes of age.
Probably looking at Jordan/Love as the right wing/fullback combo by next year's French tour.
@kpkanz said in All Blacks 2024:
So I think TJ will be gone after this tour,
Perenara is confirmed off overseas at the end of the year. It's already known this is Perenara's last test season. Which is why people are questioning why he is soaking up so many caps - especially when he isn't playing well.
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2024:
@kpkanz what IS the new system?
my feeling is we're seeing a lot of the same play as we have for the last +4 year, at most its an evolution....but then i wonder if its an evolution....with lots of the same people involved...whats taking so to click?
Not at all. Our attack shape is entirely different.
We didn't have the amount of different lines from support players, the very late passing right at the defense, the general width we are able to reach this year.
It was obvious from the first game how different our attack shape is.
The issue last cycle is we genuinely had the worst attack shape in international rugby. We sent our players out there with nothing to work with but hope one of them breaks a tackle or gets lucky.
The most aggressive defensive systems feasted on us (Ireland/France) while also resulting in much more pressure on the defensive end since we were applying none on the offensive end.
It's no surprise over half of all our wins last cycle were against Australia since they have the old passive defensive system which allows our players to just rely on instinct and find space playing heads up. No intricate lines from runners or late passing required to create the space, their defensive line already provided it.
That's why I'm excited for the first time in years because our attack actually looks more sophisticated and like there has been actual thought put into it. I think we will see the benefits this northern tour.
@kpkanz We also have a few more attacking options closer in that we didn't have in Sititi and Roigard.
I think Paps is a decent ball carrier too. -
The doom on here is OTT. We nearly won the WC, nearly beat the generationally great SA side in SA, unearthed some tremendous new talent in Williams, Vaai, Sititi and Roigard, and had Whitelock/BBBR and A Smith retire.
Glass half full. -
The doom on here is OTT. We nearly won the WC, nearly beat the generationally great SA side in SA, unearthed some tremendous new talent in Williams, Vaai, Sititi and Roigard, and had Whitelock/BBBR and A Smith retire.
Glass half full.@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2024:
The doom on here is OTT. We nearly won the WC, nearly beat the generationally great SA side in SA, unearthed some tremendous new talent in Williams, Vaai, Sititi and Roigard, and had Whitelock/BBBR and A Smith retire.
Glass half full.Agreed
But I think what has your brethren worried is not learning from 'the learnings'
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Bit of an open question
say we have a passable EOYT, no real hidings, maybe lose one or two, win the rest....what will Razor have achieved this year?
i dont feel he's done much of anything to build for the future, largely his selections have fallen on the "experience" side of the fence ...we've also lost the freedom cup and RC
what was the pass mark?
i feel at the start of the season i was thinking we would either
a ) all change, squad picked on form or potential, might win some, might lose some....but we start developing for the future
b ) safe selections but new game plan, one thing at a time (might be the safest best to get results)
c ) new blood but trying to implement the old attack from anywhere game plan betterI could have understood all three approaches
but i feel like what we've got is by and large
d ) lots of the same people doing a lot of the same things we've seen before...and still not winning
which seems like the worst of all worlds
Things I'll be looking out for.
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Develop the newer players. It's all very well keeping TJP and BB in the squad for experience, but not at the expense of game time for some of the tyros. Injury has been Robertson's best selector in may ways. Expected much more structure on the development side.
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Midfield isn't working well enough. Reiko seems to have stopped developing and JB is a solid journeyman only - OK leading up to RWC 2023 but need to aim a little higher.
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On field leadership. Still not great, but some encouraging signs. Be good to see SB growing further into the role in his first year. and the likes of Vaa'i continuing to grow in stature
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Headspace and focus has gone backwards. We may have lost players like Smith and BBBR but filling those positions hasn't been a issue (e.g Vaa'I). For me this is the real problem that needs to be fixed. We are blowing leads and look hesitant when opportunities arise.
TBH, at this stage I think it's how the team performs and develops which is more important than results. I'll accept a couple of losses as long as they aren't like the dross we saw in much of the RC this year.
Def want to win, but a hard-fought loss against the top NH teams away from home would be real progress and help address a lot of concerns. If we come back with the likes of Sititi and Vaa'i in the forwards and Clarke and Jordan in the backs being seen as core, world-class players, that'd be real progress.
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@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2024:
The doom on here is OTT. We nearly won the WC, nearly beat the generationally great SA side in SA, unearthed some tremendous new talent in Williams, Vaai, Sititi and Roigard, and had Whitelock/BBBR and A Smith retire.
Glass half full.Agreed
But I think what has your brethren worried is not learning from 'the learnings'
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks 2024:
Agreed
But you're Welsh. We don't take moral victories from 'nearly winning'. Or at least most of us haven't accepted that level yet
We lost the RC, we couldn't beat SA, and we lost to Argentina. We found ways to lose games we should've won.
It's not good enough. The level of criticism for the AB side has been minimal. If things don't improve on the EOYT maybe we'll see some real pressure.
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@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2024:
The doom on here is OTT. We nearly won the WC, nearly beat the generationally great SA side in SA, unearthed some tremendous new talent in Williams, Vaai, Sititi and Roigard, and had Whitelock/BBBR and A Smith retire.
Glass half full.Agreed
But I think what has your brethren worried is not learning from 'the learnings'
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks 2024:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2024:
The doom on here is OTT. We nearly won the WC, nearly beat the generationally great SA side in SA, unearthed some tremendous new talent in Williams, Vaai, Sititi and Roigard, and had Whitelock/BBBR and A Smith retire.
Glass half full.Agreed
But I think what has your brethren worried is not learning from 'the learnings'
in that space on both sides of the ball
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@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks 2024:
Agreed
But you're Welsh. We don't take moral victories from 'nearly winning'. Or at least most of us haven't accepted that level yet
We lost the RC, we couldn't beat SA, and we lost to Argentina. We found ways to lose games we should've won.
It's not good enough. The level of criticism for the AB side has been minimal. If things don't improve on the EOYT maybe we'll see some real pressure.
@Duluth said in All Blacks 2024:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks 2024:
Agreed
But you're Welsh. We don't take moral victories from 'nearly winning'. Or at least most of us haven't accepted that level yet
We lost the RC, we couldn't beat SA, and we lost to Argentina. We found ways to lose games we should've won.
It's not good enough. The level of criticism for the AB side has been minimal. If things don't improve on the EOYT maybe we'll see some real pressure.
How many NZ players would make a World 15 currently
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@Duluth said in All Blacks 2024:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks 2024:
Agreed
But you're Welsh. We don't take moral victories from 'nearly winning'. Or at least most of us haven't accepted that level yet
We lost the RC, we couldn't beat SA, and we lost to Argentina. We found ways to lose games we should've won.
It's not good enough. The level of criticism for the AB side has been minimal. If things don't improve on the EOYT maybe we'll see some real pressure.
How many NZ players would make a World 15 currently
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2024:
How many NZ players would make a World 15 currently
Not many because we keep
nearly winninglosingWin more games, get more players in a theoretical world xv
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We are improving albeit slowly and need some strong leaders coming through. There are green shoots.
We seriously need an attacking 7 -
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks 2024:
Agreed
But you're Welsh. We don't take moral victories from 'nearly winning'. Or at least most of us haven't accepted that level yet
We lost the RC, we couldn't beat SA, and we lost to Argentina. We found ways to lose games we should've won.
It's not good enough. The level of criticism for the AB side has been minimal. If things don't improve on the EOYT maybe we'll see some real pressure.
@Duluth said in All Blacks 2024:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks 2024:
Agreed
But you're Welsh. We don't take moral victories from 'nearly winning'. Or at least most of us haven't accepted that level yet
We lost the RC, we couldn't beat SA, and we lost to Argentina. We found ways to lose games we should've won.
It's not good enough. The level of criticism for the AB side has been minimal. If things don't improve on the EOYT maybe we'll see some real pressure.
It's got nothing to do with being Welsh
Both things can be valid at the same time
If you were 0-5, couldn't score tries and were being beaten by 3 scores every match and still picking the same players then that would be different
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@Duluth said in All Blacks 2024:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks 2024:
Agreed
But you're Welsh. We don't take moral victories from 'nearly winning'. Or at least most of us haven't accepted that level yet
We lost the RC, we couldn't beat SA, and we lost to Argentina. We found ways to lose games we should've won.
It's not good enough. The level of criticism for the AB side has been minimal. If things don't improve on the EOYT maybe we'll see some real pressure.
How many NZ players would make a World 15 currently
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2024:
@Duluth said in All Blacks 2024:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks 2024:
Agreed
But you're Welsh. We don't take moral victories from 'nearly winning'. Or at least most of us haven't accepted that level yet
We lost the RC, we couldn't beat SA, and we lost to Argentina. We found ways to lose games we should've won.
It's not good enough. The level of criticism for the AB side has been minimal. If things don't improve on the EOYT maybe we'll see some real pressure.
How many NZ players would make a World 15 currently
Realistically
Zero
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@Duluth said in All Blacks 2024:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks 2024:
Agreed
But you're Welsh. We don't take moral victories from 'nearly winning'. Or at least most of us haven't accepted that level yet
We lost the RC, we couldn't beat SA, and we lost to Argentina. We found ways to lose games we should've won.
It's not good enough. The level of criticism for the AB side has been minimal. If things don't improve on the EOYT maybe we'll see some real pressure.
It's got nothing to do with being Welsh
Both things can be valid at the same time
If you were 0-5, couldn't score tries and were being beaten by 3 scores every match and still picking the same players then that would be different
It's a comment on the lowering of standards. NZ fans/media have never been as forgiving as they are right now
Notice how many times summaries of the season just leave off the Argentina game? We shouldn't be losing to them in NZ and definitely should be conceding 38 points to them
Arrogant? Yes. But that pressure is what drove standards for decade after decade.
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It's a comment on the lowering of standards. NZ fans/media have never been as forgiving as they are right now
Notice how many times summaries of the season just leave off the Argentina game? We shouldn't be losing to them in NZ and definitely should be conceding 38 points to them
Arrogant? Yes. But that pressure is what drove standards for decade after decade.
@Duluth said in All Blacks 2024:
It's a comment on the lowering of standards. NZ fans/media have never been as forgiving as they are right now
Notice how many times summaries of the season just leave off the Argentina game? We shouldn't be losing to them in NZ and definitely should be conceding 38 points to them
Arrogant? Yes. But that pressure is what drove standards for decade after decade.
Absolutely
The same thing is happening with the Labour Government in the UK
Those who supported it are so invested in it and so convinced that it's better that they can't accept the reality
The ABs are a ball hair from winning big matches against higher ranked opponents
They're missing key players in key positions and/or key players are not performing to their known best
They're blowing good leads and are unable to change tactics during a match if things are not working outAll those things can be (and IMHO are) true at the same time
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@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2024:
@Duluth said in All Blacks 2024:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks 2024:
Agreed
But you're Welsh. We don't take moral victories from 'nearly winning'. Or at least most of us haven't accepted that level yet
We lost the RC, we couldn't beat SA, and we lost to Argentina. We found ways to lose games we should've won.
It's not good enough. The level of criticism for the AB side has been minimal. If things don't improve on the EOYT maybe we'll see some real pressure.
How many NZ players would make a World 15 currently
Realistically
Zero
-
Bit of an open question
say we have a passable EOYT, no real hidings, maybe lose one or two, win the rest....what will Razor have achieved this year?
i dont feel he's done much of anything to build for the future, largely his selections have fallen on the "experience" side of the fence ...we've also lost the freedom cup and RC
what was the pass mark?
i feel at the start of the season i was thinking we would either
a ) all change, squad picked on form or potential, might win some, might lose some....but we start developing for the future
b ) safe selections but new game plan, one thing at a time (might be the safest best to get results)
c ) new blood but trying to implement the old attack from anywhere game plan betterI could have understood all three approaches
but i feel like what we've got is by and large
d ) lots of the same people doing a lot of the same things we've seen before...and still not winning
which seems like the worst of all worlds
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2024:
Bit of an open question
say we have a passable EOYT, no real hidings, maybe lose one or two, win the rest....what will Razor have achieved this year?
Has it been the success we all dreamed of? Of course not, and Razor would tell you that. I think Razor would even admit to making a few mistakes, but this year has been fine margins.
If you look through the first year of most RWC cycles, as much as working out your new talent, it is also often about working out who isn't up to the task either... and I think we'd be surprised that they probably have developed some fairly strong opinions.
They've gone with the approach of working out which of the current guys can fit the system first, which is conservative, but it could yet be proven the right one. Easier to bring fresh talent into a side which knows what it is doing, then one trying to find its identity. If I was to guess, I think the coaches are probably well aware that there is loads of talent u23, so they want to ensure there is an established spine so that they can just drop these guys in - but doing it all at once is very risky.
