Super Rugby - The Future
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@Canes4life said in Super Rugby - The Future:
There's been recent discussion about All Blacks playing for Aussie Super sides and Wallabies playing for NZ Super sides to try and make Super Rugby more appealing as a whole. Imagine Ardie Savea playing for the Reds or Rob Valetini playing for the Canes.
Barely any of our guys would make a first XV over there. They've been brought up on 8-10 schoolboys games a year max, followed by an academy system narrower than a goat track. There's a reason we lose the physical battles: our development systems are shit.
Going to 3 teams won't change that.
@NTA said in Super Rugby - The Future:
@Canes4life said in Super Rugby - The Future:
There's been recent discussion about All Blacks playing for Aussie Super sides and Wallabies playing for NZ Super sides to try and make Super Rugby more appealing as a whole. Imagine Ardie Savea playing for the Reds or Rob Valetini playing for the Canes.
Barely any of our guys would make a first XV over there. They've been brought up on 8-10 schoolboys games a year max, followed by an academy system narrower than a goat track. There's a reason we lose the physical battles: our development systems are shit.
Going to 3 teams won't change that.
Maybe the Aussie teams go down to two teams then.
We need to find a way of making all teams more even though otherwise it will just be the same five or six sides competing for the playoffs every year which will get boring in the long run.
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@NTA said in Super Rugby - The Future:
@Canes4life said in Super Rugby - The Future:
There's been recent discussion about All Blacks playing for Aussie Super sides and Wallabies playing for NZ Super sides to try and make Super Rugby more appealing as a whole. Imagine Ardie Savea playing for the Reds or Rob Valetini playing for the Canes.
Barely any of our guys would make a first XV over there. They've been brought up on 8-10 schoolboys games a year max, followed by an academy system narrower than a goat track. There's a reason we lose the physical battles: our development systems are shit.
Going to 3 teams won't change that.
Maybe the Aussie teams go down to two teams then.
We need to find a way of making all teams more even though otherwise it will just be the same five or six sides competing for the playoffs every year which will get boring in the long run.
@Canes4life it is diminishing returns. The effect of dropping pro teams here is less TV money.
Drop in TV money = drop in investment = drop in talent development = drop in competitiveness = calls for another team to be dropped. Rewind, play, stop, rewind, play, stop etc.
Might as well just kick us out and be done with it if that is the answer :man_shrugging:
It isn't of course - the investment of whatever money rugby has here needs to be better directed, and our entire system needs bringing out of the 80s.
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@Canes4life it is diminishing returns. The effect of dropping pro teams here is less TV money.
Drop in TV money = drop in investment = drop in talent development = drop in competitiveness = calls for another team to be dropped. Rewind, play, stop, rewind, play, stop etc.
Might as well just kick us out and be done with it if that is the answer :man_shrugging:
It isn't of course - the investment of whatever money rugby has here needs to be better directed, and our entire system needs bringing out of the 80s.
@NTA said in Super Rugby - The Future:
@Canes4life it is diminishing returns. The effect of dropping pro teams here is less TV money.
Drop in TV money = drop in investment = drop in talent development = drop in competitiveness = calls for another team to be dropped. Rewind, play, stop, rewind, play, stop etc.
Might as well just kick us out and be done with it if that is the answer :man_shrugging:
It isn't of course - the investment of whatever money rugby has here needs to be better directed, and our entire system needs bringing out of the 80s.
Yeah I don't know what the answer is here but Aus rugby really needs to be more competitive, otherwise Super Rugby will never improve.
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In terms of next steps for Kevan Malloy’s Super Rugby commission, Hore has confidence in a viable 11-team draw providing a post-Melbourne solution next year (with an extra derby game to sweeten the pot), but challenges are plentiful.
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@KiwiMurph
With Georgian comms. An interesting Yellow only call at 6:10 mins -
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Japan Rugby League One executive Hajime Shoji outlines what they want from Super Rugby, and what they don’t
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Japan Rugby League One executive Hajime Shoji outlines what they want from Super Rugby, and what they don’t
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JRLO is a growth league, with last season’s final drawing 56,486 fans.
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Super Rugby’s longer-term structure remains unclear.
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Kiwi Super sides won’t play in Japan in 2025.
The All Blacks play Japan this weekend in the latest chapter of a deepening rugby relationship between the two countries, but a potential merged competition between Super Rugby Pacific and Japan Rugby League One remains some distance off.
Super Rugby Pacific chief executive Jack Mesley is currently working on a strategy for 2026 onwards, telling The Post last month that he had an “open mind” to new teams.
Japan has often been mentioned as the natural next step for Super Rugby, although that is based on the premise that the Japanese are as keen as New Zealand and Australia.
However, in an interview with The Post, JRLO chief operating officer Hajime Shoji has outlined a more nuanced but firm position, stating that Japan first wanted post-season playoff games of real consequence before any moves towards a potential merger.
“The meaning of the game is the most important [thing], just an exchange is not enough,” Shoji said, referring to the Blues and Chiefs’ preseason fixtures in February.
“In our long-term horizon, it’s how to realise the value of the game, especially for the competition level and the fans’ enthusiasm.
“So, some formality for the game is quite important.
“And of course, commercial success or commercial performance is also very important.
“Once we can have a meaningful format for the game many Japanese corporations, especially who have business in Australia and New Zealand, have a good appetite to support us.”
The Blues and Chiefs played in what was marketed as “Cross-Border Rugby” before Super Rugby and while Shoji said the concept was “quite successful” as relationship-building exercises, they lacked true meaning for both countries.
Only one of the four games in Cross-Border Rugby truly caught the eye - when Robbie Deans put out a full-strength Saitama Wild Knights to play, and beat, the Chiefs - and there will be no repeat in 2025.
Beauden Barrett in action for Suntory Sungoliath in Japan’s domestic rugby competition.
The preferred option for JRLO is to have a formalised competition at the end of Super Rugby Pacific and Japan’s domestic competition, when sides from all countries would have access to their test players.
“We are keeping the discussion [open] for our future collaboration,” Shoji said.
“We are discussing the many options for the cross border format, for our mutual benefit.
“It’s still under negotiation so I cannot talk [about it] much, but basically one of the option is integrated type of playoffs after each [domestic] playoff.
“And another option is having the some games in the midst of the season [in Japan].
“We have some preference but our discussion is based on mutual benefit.”
JRLO’s negotiating position - essentially a form of stick and carrot - reflects the growing self-confidence of a league that is growing its fanbase.
Last season’s final between Toshiba Brave Lupus Tokyo, coached by Todd Blackadder, and the Saitama Wild Knights attracted a crowd of 56,486 in late May, which was more than the Japan-England test match in June.
Blackadder and Deans have been joined by Ian Foster, Dave Rennie, Kieran Crowley, Tabai Matson, Glenn Delaney and Wayne Pivac in the coaching ranks in Japan, lifting the competition’s rugby IQ in a big way.
The All Blacks enjoy support and recognition in Japan but Super Rugby is a different matter.
Tsutomu Kishimoto
As a result, players such as Beauden Barrett - who has featured for both Suntory Sungoliath and Toyota Verblitz in JRLO - have called for NZ Rugby to pull out the stops to make the top Japanese sides a full part of Super Rugby.Shoji did not rule that out at some point in the future but said a lot more groundwork was needed before that became compelling for the Japanese.
“That has to take some steps, because all integrated types of models firstly need the fans’ understanding,” he said.
“Japanese fans, at least at this moment, don't understand the structure or history of Super Rugby well.
“And in that [potential] integration of the league, it [will] have some challenge to get the understanding from Japanese fans.
“And of course the second reason is... the cost effectiveness, or financial feasibility.
“Of course, the cost of moving to each place is quite big.
“Therefore, for these two reasons, we need to take some steps, at least, before we are moving to some integration.”
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I have to ask what "post-season playoff games of real consequence" actually means....the only thing they can do it make a new trophy (pacific club champ)...and is another new trophy really going to mean much to anyone...especially if one day they are combined into one comp
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JRLO is a growth league, with last season’s final drawing 56,486 fans.
-
Super Rugby’s longer-term structure remains unclear.
-
Kiwi Super sides won’t play in Japan in 2025.
The All Blacks play Japan this weekend in the latest chapter of a deepening rugby relationship between the two countries, but a potential merged competition between Super Rugby Pacific and Japan Rugby League One remains some distance off.
Super Rugby Pacific chief executive Jack Mesley is currently working on a strategy for 2026 onwards, telling The Post last month that he had an “open mind” to new teams.
Japan has often been mentioned as the natural next step for Super Rugby, although that is based on the premise that the Japanese are as keen as New Zealand and Australia.
However, in an interview with The Post, JRLO chief operating officer Hajime Shoji has outlined a more nuanced but firm position, stating that Japan first wanted post-season playoff games of real consequence before any moves towards a potential merger.
“The meaning of the game is the most important [thing], just an exchange is not enough,” Shoji said, referring to the Blues and Chiefs’ preseason fixtures in February.
“In our long-term horizon, it’s how to realise the value of the game, especially for the competition level and the fans’ enthusiasm.
“So, some formality for the game is quite important.
“And of course, commercial success or commercial performance is also very important.
“Once we can have a meaningful format for the game many Japanese corporations, especially who have business in Australia and New Zealand, have a good appetite to support us.”
The Blues and Chiefs played in what was marketed as “Cross-Border Rugby” before Super Rugby and while Shoji said the concept was “quite successful” as relationship-building exercises, they lacked true meaning for both countries.
Only one of the four games in Cross-Border Rugby truly caught the eye - when Robbie Deans put out a full-strength Saitama Wild Knights to play, and beat, the Chiefs - and there will be no repeat in 2025.
Beauden Barrett in action for Suntory Sungoliath in Japan’s domestic rugby competition.
The preferred option for JRLO is to have a formalised competition at the end of Super Rugby Pacific and Japan’s domestic competition, when sides from all countries would have access to their test players.
“We are keeping the discussion [open] for our future collaboration,” Shoji said.
“We are discussing the many options for the cross border format, for our mutual benefit.
“It’s still under negotiation so I cannot talk [about it] much, but basically one of the option is integrated type of playoffs after each [domestic] playoff.
“And another option is having the some games in the midst of the season [in Japan].
“We have some preference but our discussion is based on mutual benefit.”
JRLO’s negotiating position - essentially a form of stick and carrot - reflects the growing self-confidence of a league that is growing its fanbase.
Last season’s final between Toshiba Brave Lupus Tokyo, coached by Todd Blackadder, and the Saitama Wild Knights attracted a crowd of 56,486 in late May, which was more than the Japan-England test match in June.
Blackadder and Deans have been joined by Ian Foster, Dave Rennie, Kieran Crowley, Tabai Matson, Glenn Delaney and Wayne Pivac in the coaching ranks in Japan, lifting the competition’s rugby IQ in a big way.
The All Blacks enjoy support and recognition in Japan but Super Rugby is a different matter.
Tsutomu Kishimoto
As a result, players such as Beauden Barrett - who has featured for both Suntory Sungoliath and Toyota Verblitz in JRLO - have called for NZ Rugby to pull out the stops to make the top Japanese sides a full part of Super Rugby.Shoji did not rule that out at some point in the future but said a lot more groundwork was needed before that became compelling for the Japanese.
“That has to take some steps, because all integrated types of models firstly need the fans’ understanding,” he said.
“Japanese fans, at least at this moment, don't understand the structure or history of Super Rugby well.
“And in that [potential] integration of the league, it [will] have some challenge to get the understanding from Japanese fans.
“And of course the second reason is... the cost effectiveness, or financial feasibility.
“Of course, the cost of moving to each place is quite big.
“Therefore, for these two reasons, we need to take some steps, at least, before we are moving to some integration.”
@mikedogz said in Super Rugby - The Future:
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JRLO is a growth league, with last season’s final drawing 56,486 fans.
-
Super Rugby’s longer-term structure remains unclear.
-
Kiwi Super sides won’t play in Japan in 2025.
The All Blacks play Japan this weekend in the latest chapter of a deepening rugby relationship between the two countries, but a potential merged competition between Super Rugby Pacific and Japan Rugby League One remains some distance off.
Super Rugby Pacific chief executive Jack Mesley is currently working on a strategy for 2026 onwards, telling The Post last month that he had an “open mind” to new teams.
Japan has often been mentioned as the natural next step for Super Rugby, although that is based on the premise that the Japanese are as keen as New Zealand and Australia.
However, in an interview with The Post, JRLO chief operating officer Hajime Shoji has outlined a more nuanced but firm position, stating that Japan first wanted post-season playoff games of real consequence before any moves towards a potential merger.
“The meaning of the game is the most important [thing], just an exchange is not enough,” Shoji said, referring to the Blues and Chiefs’ preseason fixtures in February.
“In our long-term horizon, it’s how to realise the value of the game, especially for the competition level and the fans’ enthusiasm.
“So, some formality for the game is quite important.
“And of course, commercial success or commercial performance is also very important.
“Once we can have a meaningful format for the game many Japanese corporations, especially who have business in Australia and New Zealand, have a good appetite to support us.”
The Blues and Chiefs played in what was marketed as “Cross-Border Rugby” before Super Rugby and while Shoji said the concept was “quite successful” as relationship-building exercises, they lacked true meaning for both countries.
Only one of the four games in Cross-Border Rugby truly caught the eye - when Robbie Deans put out a full-strength Saitama Wild Knights to play, and beat, the Chiefs - and there will be no repeat in 2025.
Beauden Barrett in action for Suntory Sungoliath in Japan’s domestic rugby competition.
The preferred option for JRLO is to have a formalised competition at the end of Super Rugby Pacific and Japan’s domestic competition, when sides from all countries would have access to their test players.
“We are keeping the discussion [open] for our future collaboration,” Shoji said.
“We are discussing the many options for the cross border format, for our mutual benefit.
“It’s still under negotiation so I cannot talk [about it] much, but basically one of the option is integrated type of playoffs after each [domestic] playoff.
“And another option is having the some games in the midst of the season [in Japan].
“We have some preference but our discussion is based on mutual benefit.”
JRLO’s negotiating position - essentially a form of stick and carrot - reflects the growing self-confidence of a league that is growing its fanbase.
Last season’s final between Toshiba Brave Lupus Tokyo, coached by Todd Blackadder, and the Saitama Wild Knights attracted a crowd of 56,486 in late May, which was more than the Japan-England test match in June.
Blackadder and Deans have been joined by Ian Foster, Dave Rennie, Kieran Crowley, Tabai Matson, Glenn Delaney and Wayne Pivac in the coaching ranks in Japan, lifting the competition’s rugby IQ in a big way.
The All Blacks enjoy support and recognition in Japan but Super Rugby is a different matter.
Tsutomu Kishimoto
As a result, players such as Beauden Barrett - who has featured for both Suntory Sungoliath and Toyota Verblitz in JRLO - have called for NZ Rugby to pull out the stops to make the top Japanese sides a full part of Super Rugby.Shoji did not rule that out at some point in the future but said a lot more groundwork was needed before that became compelling for the Japanese.
“That has to take some steps, because all integrated types of models firstly need the fans’ understanding,” he said.
“Japanese fans, at least at this moment, don't understand the structure or history of Super Rugby well.
“And in that [potential] integration of the league, it [will] have some challenge to get the understanding from Japanese fans.
“And of course the second reason is... the cost effectiveness, or financial feasibility.
“Of course, the cost of moving to each place is quite big.
“Therefore, for these two reasons, we need to take some steps, at least, before we are moving to some integration.”
So to summarize... nothing will happen because this would mean more Super games and NZR only cares about preserving the players for international duties.
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I have to ask what "post-season playoff games of real consequence" actually means....the only thing they can do it make a new trophy (pacific club champ)...and is another new trophy really going to mean much to anyone...especially if one day they are combined into one comp
@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby - The Future:
I have to ask what "post-season playoff games of real consequence" actually means....the only thing they can do it make a new trophy (pacific club champ)...and is another new trophy really going to mean much to anyone...especially if one day they are combined into one comp
Probably a polite way of implying NZR Super teams halfarsed the cross border games with essentially development sides.
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@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby - The Future:
I have to ask what "post-season playoff games of real consequence" actually means....the only thing they can do it make a new trophy (pacific club champ)...and is another new trophy really going to mean much to anyone...especially if one day they are combined into one comp
Probably a polite way of implying NZR Super teams halfarsed the cross border games with essentially development sides.
@WoodysRFC said in Super Rugby - The Future:
@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby - The Future:
I have to ask what "post-season playoff games of real consequence" actually means....the only thing they can do it make a new trophy (pacific club champ)...and is another new trophy really going to mean much to anyone...especially if one day they are combined into one comp
Probably a polite way of implying NZR Super teams halfarsed the cross boarder games with essentially development sides.
yeah they are preseason hit-outs with nothing on the line and merely used for experimenting
honestly they should make the current preseason window (end of Jan-mid Feb) a mini tournament with Japan sides that are capped games and give our Super teams more official home games to bring revenue.
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Somehow linking up with North American and Japanese competitions is the only way I can see Super Rugby surviving in the medium term. International interest in the competition since the South Africans left is virtually zero.
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Somehow linking up with North American and Japanese competitions is the only way I can see Super Rugby surviving in the medium term. International interest in the competition since the South Africans left is virtually zero.
@sparky said in Super Rugby - The Future:
Somehow linking up with North American and Japanese competitions is the only way I can see Super Rugby surviving in the medium term. International interest in the competition since the South Africans left is virtually zero.
Was there much international interest in Super Rugby before South Africa left...?
Maybe due to a few games being played in the timezone as Europe, but that wouldn't be the case just because of NA/Japan joining the competition...
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@sparky said in Super Rugby - The Future:
Somehow linking up with North American and Japanese competitions is the only way I can see Super Rugby surviving in the medium term. International interest in the competition since the South Africans left is virtually zero.
Was there much international interest in Super Rugby before South Africa left...?
Maybe due to a few games being played in the timezone as Europe, but that wouldn't be the case just because of NA/Japan joining the competition...
@Mr-Fish said in Super Rugby - The Future:
@sparky said in Super Rugby - The Future:
Somehow linking up with North American and Japanese competitions is the only way I can see Super Rugby surviving in the medium term. International interest in the competition since the South Africans left is virtually zero.
Was there much international interest in Super Rugby before South Africa left...?
Yeah, Sky Sports in the UK used to cover almost every game. It was a bit of a pub Saturday afternoon favourite in certain places.
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@Mr-Fish said in Super Rugby - The Future:
@sparky said in Super Rugby - The Future:
Somehow linking up with North American and Japanese competitions is the only way I can see Super Rugby surviving in the medium term. International interest in the competition since the South Africans left is virtually zero.
Was there much international interest in Super Rugby before South Africa left...?
Yeah, Sky Sports in the UK used to cover almost every game. It was a bit of a pub Saturday afternoon favourite in certain places.
@sparky said in Super Rugby - The Future:
@Mr-Fish said in Super Rugby - The Future:
@sparky said in Super Rugby - The Future:
Somehow linking up with North American and Japanese competitions is the only way I can see Super Rugby surviving in the medium term. International interest in the competition since the South Africans left is virtually zero.
Was there much international interest in Super Rugby before South Africa left...?
Yeah, Sky Sports in the UK used to cover almost every game. It was a bit of a pub Saturday afternoon favourite in certain places.
But isn't that just more of a timezone thing? I watch more SA games now (that don't involve NZ teams) than I used to after moving north, but that's just because there happens to be a game on at 3pm and I've got a bit of free time - I'm not actually any more interested in the games. Adding Japan and the US won't help with the inconvenient timezone.
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@sparky said in Super Rugby - The Future:
@Mr-Fish said in Super Rugby - The Future:
@sparky said in Super Rugby - The Future:
Somehow linking up with North American and Japanese competitions is the only way I can see Super Rugby surviving in the medium term. International interest in the competition since the South Africans left is virtually zero.
Was there much international interest in Super Rugby before South Africa left...?
Yeah, Sky Sports in the UK used to cover almost every game. It was a bit of a pub Saturday afternoon favourite in certain places.
But isn't that just more of a timezone thing? I watch more SA games now (that don't involve NZ teams) than I used to after moving north, but that's just because there happens to be a game on at 3pm and I've got a bit of free time - I'm not actually any more interested in the games. Adding Japan and the US won't help with the inconvenient timezone.
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"After almost a year of research, an independent review that set out to find solutions to New Zealand’s confused rugby talent development pathways and determine the best competition structure for the national game, has come back with a shock recommendation to merge the five founding Super Rugby clubs with the respective provincial unions in which they are based"
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"After almost a year of research, an independent review that set out to find solutions to New Zealand’s confused rugby talent development pathways and determine the best competition structure for the national game, has come back with a shock recommendation to merge the five founding Super Rugby clubs with the respective provincial unions in which they are based"
@mikedogz do they mean organisationally? ie Auckland Rugby fields teams in the NPC and Super with one large squad rather than two smaller ones (with a lot of overlap)? and admin goes from 2 to 1?
or do they mean merging the two comps somehow, a teams play super and the bottom one drops to the NPC
