All Blacks EOYT
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@canefan said in All Blacks EOYT:
Flooding the field with greenhorns and debutantes does them no good, and is of little value in terms of accurately evaluating their potential value to the top team IMHO
Don't think people are talking about flooding the field. More about giving much more game time to greenhorns, trying new combinations and testing some promising debutants rather that sticking rigidly with players due to retire in the next 6-12 months.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks EOYT:
@canefan said in All Blacks EOYT:
Flooding the field with greenhorns and debutantes does them no good, and is of little value in terms of accurately evaluating their potential value to the top team IMHO
Don't think people are talking about flooding the field. More about giving much more game time to greenhorns, trying new combinations and testing some promising debutants rather that sticking rigidly with players due to retire in the next 6-12 months.
I was referring to the Japan game. I don't see much use in sending on a bunch of young players and seeing our pattern go to shit (although admittedly we don't really have much pattern right now). Inserting guys into our A team combinations would have been more use, as we've discussed with regards to the last Bled match
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@African-Monkey said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks EOYT:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks EOYT:
"the third best second five"
Still waiting for them to select A J Lam...
How many Super matches has AJ started at 12?
Is it more the 17 tests Dave has started at 12?
Has hes started 17 tests at 12?!?
Yes. Yes he has! It's a fact. Sorry to be a fluffybunny who provided a fact.
Someone tells me Razor'ss not playing enough rookies and I provide some stats showing that he picked 11 rookies in the latest test. But, apparently I'm a fluffybunny again.
I ask someone to tell me how many time AJ has started at 12 - and I'm a fluffybunny yet again. With a narrative.
Maybe somone else could be a fluffybunny who turns up with some facts?!
@Chris-B said in All Blacks EOYT:
How many Super matches has AJ started at 12?
Is it more the 17 tests Dave has started at 12?No I doubt it.
https://www.blues.rugby/aj-lam-player-profile
lists him as a wing still!I ask someone to tell me how many time AJ has started at 12 - and I'm a fluffybunny yet again. With a narrative.
Well that wasn't me.
DH is more experienced, no argument from me.
Is he the better 12? I'd like to see A J Lam given at least a chance there to see. Plus Lam is faster than our latest 2 wings so provides some wing cover.
DH can cover 15 and 10 but we have enough fullbacks and I wonder if he is truly considered a 10 backup by the coaches.I don't think DH has had a full season to show he is fit and in form.
But Lam has had that season.
Started only 4 times at 12 and 5 times at 13 this year as far as I can tell, so, 9. Scored 5 times in his 15 or so games this season.
https://www.rugbydatabase.co.nz/team/player.php?teamId=4&playerId=229how many times has DH played in the midfield this year? 6? Scoring in 1 out of 9 games?
https://www.rugbydatabase.co.nz/team/player.php?teamId=7&playerId=169And A J Lam can kick at international level!
So you can argue, for sure, that DH is more experienced but I claim what is more important is who would be better for the ABs. And we simply don't know yet. But I'd argue Lam's 2024 season warrants a look. And arguably Lam has been the better 12. And he covers 13 and wing (has played at 11 and 14).
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks EOYT:
@canefan said in All Blacks EOYT:
Flooding the field with greenhorns and debutantes does them no good, and is of little value in terms of accurately evaluating their potential value to the top team IMHO
Don't think people are talking about flooding the field. More about giving much more game time to greenhorns, trying new combinations and testing some promising debutants rather that sticking rigidly with players due to retire in the next 6-12 months.
I was referring to the Japan game. I don't see much use in sending on a bunch of young players and seeing our pattern go to shit (although admittedly we don't really have much pattern right now). Inserting guys into our A team combinations would have been more use, as we've discussed with regards to the last Bled match
@canefan said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks EOYT:
@canefan said in All Blacks EOYT:
Flooding the field with greenhorns and debutantes does them no good, and is of little value in terms of accurately evaluating their potential value to the top team IMHO
Don't think people are talking about flooding the field. More about giving much more game time to greenhorns, trying new combinations and testing some promising debutants rather that sticking rigidly with players due to retire in the next 6-12 months.
I was referring to the Japan game. I don't see much use in sending on a bunch of young players and seeing our pattern go to shit (although admittedly we don't really have much pattern right now). Inserting guys into our A team combinations would have been more use, as we've discussed with regards to the last Bled match
Fair enough and I think we're saying pretty much the same thing. I'd still like to see some bolder selections and a few more newbies against the better sides though.
On the Japan game, assuming Roigard didn't get a niggle, it would have been way better to have kept him on longer and having Ratima on the bench rather than TJP.
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@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks EOYT:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks EOYT:
Someone tells me Razor'ss not playing enough rookies and I provide some stats showing that he picked 11 rookies in the latest test. But, apparently I'm a fluffybunny again.
11? There were 8 against Japan wasn't there?
Seven players who debuted this year, four additional players with only a handful of caps (Finau, Roigard, Perofeta, Lord).
Which doesn't equate to 11 rookies. Finau started a Bledisloe last year, Lord started against Argentina away last year and people were rightly pissed off Roigard wasn't named on the bench for the World Cup Final last year. Trying to turn that into credit for playing them against 14th ranked Japan is some serious mental gymnastics.
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks EOYT:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks EOYT:
Someone tells me Razor'ss not playing enough rookies and I provide some stats showing that he picked 11 rookies in the latest test. But, apparently I'm a fluffybunny again.
11? There were 8 against Japan wasn't there?
Seven players who debuted this year, four additional players with only a handful of caps (Finau, Roigard, Perofeta, Lord).
Which doesn't equate to 11 rookies. Finau started a Bledisloe last year, Lord started against Argentina away last year and people were rightly pissed off Roigard wasn't named on the bench for the World Cup Final last year. Trying to turn that into credit for playing them against 14th ranked Japan is some serious mental gymnastics.
So when people say they want to see Razor using new players, they're explicitly talking about debutants and not just players new to the first-choice team?
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@canefan said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks EOYT:
@canefan said in All Blacks EOYT:
Flooding the field with greenhorns and debutantes does them no good, and is of little value in terms of accurately evaluating their potential value to the top team IMHO
Don't think people are talking about flooding the field. More about giving much more game time to greenhorns, trying new combinations and testing some promising debutants rather that sticking rigidly with players due to retire in the next 6-12 months.
I was referring to the Japan game. I don't see much use in sending on a bunch of young players and seeing our pattern go to shit (although admittedly we don't really have much pattern right now). Inserting guys into our A team combinations would have been more use, as we've discussed with regards to the last Bled match
Fair enough and I think we're saying pretty much the same thing. I'd still like to see some bolder selections and a few more newbies against the better sides though.
On the Japan game, assuming Roigard didn't get a niggle, it would have been way better to have kept him on longer and having Ratima on the bench rather than TJP.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks EOYT:
@canefan said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks EOYT:
@canefan said in All Blacks EOYT:
Flooding the field with greenhorns and debutantes does them no good, and is of little value in terms of accurately evaluating their potential value to the top team IMHO
Don't think people are talking about flooding the field. More about giving much more game time to greenhorns, trying new combinations and testing some promising debutants rather that sticking rigidly with players due to retire in the next 6-12 months.
I was referring to the Japan game. I don't see much use in sending on a bunch of young players and seeing our pattern go to shit (although admittedly we don't really have much pattern right now). Inserting guys into our A team combinations would have been more use, as we've discussed with regards to the last Bled match
Fair enough and I think we're saying pretty much the same thing. I'd still like to see some bolder selections and a few more newbies against the better sides though.
On the Japan game, assuming Roigard didn't get a niggle, it would have been way better to have kept him on longer and having Ratima on the bench rather than TJP.
I think we agree. TJP, Cane among others are just taking valuable minutes from potential future playing squad members
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@African-Monkey said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks EOYT:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks EOYT:
"the third best second five"
Still waiting for them to select A J Lam...
How many Super matches has AJ started at 12?
Is it more the 17 tests Dave has started at 12?
Has hes started 17 tests at 12?!?
Yes. Yes he has! It's a fact. Sorry to be a fluffybunny who provided a fact.
Someone tells me Razor'ss not playing enough rookies and I provide some stats showing that he picked 11 rookies in the latest test. But, apparently I'm a fluffybunny again.
I ask someone to tell me how many time AJ has started at 12 - and I'm a fluffybunny yet again. With a narrative.
Maybe somone else could be a fluffybunny who turns up with some facts?!
@Chris-B said in All Blacks EOYT:
Someone tells me Razor'ss not playing enough rookies and I provide some stats showing that he picked 11 rookies in the latest test. But, apparently I'm a fluffybunny again.
C'mon - it was Japan. Coached by Eddie Jones.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks EOYT:
Someone tells me Razor'ss not playing enough rookies and I provide some stats showing that he picked 11 rookies in the latest test. But, apparently I'm a fluffybunny again.
C'mon - it was Japan. Coached by Eddie Jones.
@antipodean said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks EOYT:
Someone tells me Razor'ss not playing enough rookies and I provide some stats showing that he picked 11 rookies in the latest test. But, apparently I'm a fluffybunny again.
C'mon - it was Japan. Coached by Eddie Jones.
Japan lost to us by a mere 7 points last time we played them.
Eddie Jones has coached teams that beat the All Blacks.
And to lose to Japan wouldn't look good on the Razor form book.
So I understand the conservatism even if I don't fully agree with it.
At least we saw Love, Proctor and Lakai in action. -
David Havili gets a lot of undue criticism on here...
I think if paired with a big centre he could be a pretty good international 12. I don't think he should've been selected in the squad but he's not a terrible player.
His kick to the wing was actually perfectly placed - he obviously thought he had a runner out there. It wasn't a lack of skill, he just made a small mistake. And criticising him for laughing it off? We don't want these players getting in their heads when they're making 'positive' errors like that (in, might I add a game that's already well and truly been decided) - I have absolutely no issues with how he reacted.
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks EOYT:
David Havili gets a lot of undue criticism on here...
I think if paired with a big centre he could be a pretty good international 12. I don't think he should've been selected in the squad but he's not a terrible player.
His kick to the wing was actually perfectly placed - he obviously thought he had a runner out there. It wasn't a lack of skill, he just made a small mistake. And criticising him for laughing it off? We don't want these players getting in their heads when they're making 'positive' errors like that (in, might I add a game that's already well and truly been decided) - I have absolutely no issues with how he reacted.
Game awareness is a skill. Having said that, I agree Havili cops far more shit than he should and don't have a problem with him as a squad member. Laughing at yourself when you cock something up in an exhibition game with the result decided is just a big nothing.
What I struggle with is reconciling things like picking Havili and picking George Bell. Either you are going for the young guys with potential over the experienced 'never gonna be a greats', or you're not. Jacobson over Lakai/Sotutu same deal. -
@brodean said in All Blacks v Japan:
@Chris-B
Riccitelli is the same weight as Taylor.
Yeah but Cantab beef is full of more power to weight than any other beef in NZ so Taylor wins.
@MN5 said in All Blacks EOYT:
@brodean said in All Blacks v Japan:
@Chris-B
Riccitelli is the same weight as Taylor.
Yeah but Cantab beef is full of more power to weight than any other beef in NZ so Taylor wins.
Yep but Taylor is Horowhenua beef, so maybe it's the Canterbury tucker??
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks EOYT:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks EOYT:
Someone tells me Razor'ss not playing enough rookies and I provide some stats showing that he picked 11 rookies in the latest test. But, apparently I'm a fluffybunny again.
11? There were 8 against Japan wasn't there?
Seven players who debuted this year, four additional players with only a handful of caps (Finau, Roigard, Perofeta, Lord).
Which doesn't equate to 11 rookies. Finau started a Bledisloe last year, Lord started against Argentina away last year and people were rightly pissed off Roigard wasn't named on the bench for the World Cup Final last year. Trying to turn that into credit for playing them against 14th ranked Japan is some serious mental gymnastics.
So when people say they want to see Razor using new players, they're explicitly talking about debutants and not just players new to the first-choice team?
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks EOYT:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks EOYT:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks EOYT:
Someone tells me Razor'ss not playing enough rookies and I provide some stats showing that he picked 11 rookies in the latest test. But, apparently I'm a fluffybunny again.
11? There were 8 against Japan wasn't there?
Seven players who debuted this year, four additional players with only a handful of caps (Finau, Roigard, Perofeta, Lord).
Which doesn't equate to 11 rookies. Finau started a Bledisloe last year, Lord started against Argentina away last year and people were rightly pissed off Roigard wasn't named on the bench for the World Cup Final last year. Trying to turn that into credit for playing them against 14th ranked Japan is some serious mental gymnastics.
So when people say they want to see Razor using new players, they're explicitly talking about debutants and not just players new to the first-choice team?
The term rookie means first year player i.e. players that debuted in 2024
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@Chris-B
There is zero issue with the height of Ricketelli and Eklund because you do not need to be tall to be a hooker. Aumua is no taller than Ricketelli or Ekland.
@brodean said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Chris-B
There is zero issue with the height of Ricketelli and Eklund because you do not need to be tall to be a hooker. Aumua is no taller than Ricketelli or Ekland.
The problem with being short is that it limits how big you can make them compared to taller players. You'll turn short guys into bowling balls.
Somewhere there's an article where Steve Hansen talks a lot about making players bigger and even talks about some specific weights.
Can't find it, but here's Fox talking a bit about Dane Coles.
https://www.allblacks.com/news/players-getting-bigger-and-stronger-in-the-modern-game
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@antipodean said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks EOYT:
Someone tells me Razor'ss not playing enough rookies and I provide some stats showing that he picked 11 rookies in the latest test. But, apparently I'm a fluffybunny again.
C'mon - it was Japan. Coached by Eddie Jones.
Japan lost to us by a mere 7 points last time we played them.
Eddie Jones has coached teams that beat the All Blacks.
And to lose to Japan wouldn't look good on the Razor form book.
So I understand the conservatism even if I don't fully agree with it.
At least we saw Love, Proctor and Lakai in action.@nostrildamus said in All Blacks EOYT:
@antipodean said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks EOYT:
Someone tells me Razor'ss not playing enough rookies and I provide some stats showing that he picked 11 rookies in the latest test. But, apparently I'm a fluffybunny again.
C'mon - it was Japan. Coached by Eddie Jones.
Japan lost to us by a mere 7 points last time we played them.
Yeah, when we handed out undeserving caps to players like Tuivasa-Sheck, demonstrated Christie was a donkey and Retallick got a red card.
Eddie Jones has coached teams that beat the All Blacks.
A quarter final with the resources of England assisted in no small part by Hansen's brain fart and a couple of Wallaby wins when they weren't shit.
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@brodean said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Chris-B
There is zero issue with the height of Ricketelli and Eklund because you do not need to be tall to be a hooker. Aumua is no taller than Ricketelli or Ekland.
The problem with being short is that it limits how big you can make them compared to taller players. You'll turn short guys into bowling balls.
Somewhere there's an article where Steve Hansen talks a lot about making players bigger and even talks about some specific weights.
Can't find it, but here's Fox talking a bit about Dane Coles.
https://www.allblacks.com/news/players-getting-bigger-and-stronger-in-the-modern-game
@Chris-B said in All Blacks EOYT:
@brodean said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Chris-B
There is zero issue with the height of Ricketelli and Eklund because you do not need to be tall to be a hooker. Aumua is no taller than Ricketelli or Ekland.
The problem with being short is that it limits how big you can make them compared to taller players. You'll turn short guys into bowling balls.
Somewhere there's an article where Steve Hansen talks a lot about making players bigger and even talks about some specific weights.
Can't find it, but here's Fox talking a bit about Dane Coles.
https://www.allblacks.com/news/players-getting-bigger-and-stronger-in-the-modern-game
You're using theoretical BS to back your argument. The reality is Ricketelli weights the same as Taylor and what Coles did. Sure Taylor and Coles have the potential to weigh more but they don't.
Ricketelli was one of the Blues best cleaners. There's nothing about his size that prevents him from performing all his core roles to a high level at test level.
The Blues had the best lineout in SR, the best maul, and one of the best scrums - best by the amount of penalties won.
He's far more likely too perform all his core roles to a high standard than Bell who looked sloppy and disinterested against Japan.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks EOYT:
How many Super matches has AJ started at 12?
Is it more the 17 tests Dave has started at 12?No I doubt it.
https://www.blues.rugby/aj-lam-player-profile
lists him as a wing still!I ask someone to tell me how many time AJ has started at 12 - and I'm a fluffybunny yet again. With a narrative.
Well that wasn't me.
DH is more experienced, no argument from me.
Is he the better 12? I'd like to see A J Lam given at least a chance there to see. Plus Lam is faster than our latest 2 wings so provides some wing cover.
DH can cover 15 and 10 but we have enough fullbacks and I wonder if he is truly considered a 10 backup by the coaches.I don't think DH has had a full season to show he is fit and in form.
But Lam has had that season.
Started only 4 times at 12 and 5 times at 13 this year as far as I can tell, so, 9. Scored 5 times in his 15 or so games this season.
https://www.rugbydatabase.co.nz/team/player.php?teamId=4&playerId=229how many times has DH played in the midfield this year? 6? Scoring in 1 out of 9 games?
https://www.rugbydatabase.co.nz/team/player.php?teamId=7&playerId=169And A J Lam can kick at international level!
So you can argue, for sure, that DH is more experienced but I claim what is more important is who would be better for the ABs. And we simply don't know yet. But I'd argue Lam's 2024 season warrants a look. And arguably Lam has been the better 12. And he covers 13 and wing (has played at 11 and 14).
@nostrildamus An upvote for doing some research and providing some factual content.
The thing is - they have picked AJ as a midfielder - for NZ A. IMO that's the right step for someone who's showed some promise but hardly played in the midfield.
Rieko has been playing centre for the ABs since 2020 and has played 36 tests there and there's no shortage of punters (not me) who still think he's not a proper centre and should be shunted back to the wing!
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks EOYT:
@brodean said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Chris-B
There is zero issue with the height of Ricketelli and Eklund because you do not need to be tall to be a hooker. Aumua is no taller than Ricketelli or Ekland.
The problem with being short is that it limits how big you can make them compared to taller players. You'll turn short guys into bowling balls.
Somewhere there's an article where Steve Hansen talks a lot about making players bigger and even talks about some specific weights.
Can't find it, but here's Fox talking a bit about Dane Coles.
https://www.allblacks.com/news/players-getting-bigger-and-stronger-in-the-modern-game
You're using theoretical BS to back your argument. The reality is Ricketelli weights the same as Taylor and what Coles did. Sure Taylor and Coles have the potential to weigh more but they don't.
Ricketelli was one of the Blues best cleaners. There's nothing about his size that prevents him from performing all his core roles to a high level at test level.
The Blues had the best lineout in SR, the best maul, and one of the best scrums - best by the amount of penalties won.
He's far more likely too perform all his core roles to a high standard than Bell who looked sloppy and disinterested against Japan.
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the ongoing discussion about the 3rd (but really 4th) hooker is pretty funny.
I am far more worried about the currently 2nd hooker. He looked great ball in hand on Saturday, but he's a ropey thrower, part of a front row that could not budge the japanese at scrum time, and it was his glaring miss that opened the hole for the first try. He's nowhere near test standard at the moment.
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the ongoing discussion about the 3rd (but really 4th) hooker is pretty funny.
I am far more worried about the currently 2nd hooker. He looked great ball in hand on Saturday, but he's a ropey thrower, part of a front row that could not budge the japanese at scrum time, and it was his glaring miss that opened the hole for the first try. He's nowhere near test standard at the moment.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks EOYT:
the ongoing discussion about the 3rd (but really 4th) hooker is pretty funny.
I am far more worried about the currently 2nd hooker. He looked great ball in hand on Saturday, but he's a ropey thrower, part of a front row that could not budge the japanese at scrum time, and it was his glaring miss that opened the hole for the first try. He's nowhere near test standard at the moment.
Fair to say Taukeiaho's injury has caused all this mess about discussing who should be the 3rd/4th hooker and Aumua's very inconsistent form.
We really miss him.
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@brodean And yet the selectors didn't pick him.
They picked Bell - who, I agree, had a pretty poor Super season.
I'm pretty sure the primary reason will be Ricky's size - with age relative to Bell a secondary issue.
@Chris-B said in All Blacks EOYT:
@brodean And yet the selectors didn't pick him.
They picked Bell - who, I agree, had a pretty poor Super season.
I'm pretty sure the primary reason will be Ricky's size - with age relative to Bell a secondary issue.
I'm pretty sure the reason is they have a bias towards Crusaders players for the wider squads.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks EOYT:
@brodean And yet the selectors didn't pick him.
They picked Bell - who, I agree, had a pretty poor Super season.
I'm pretty sure the primary reason will be Ricky's size - with age relative to Bell a secondary issue.
I'm pretty sure the reason is they have a bias towards Crusaders players for the wider squads.
@brodean said in All Blacks EOYT:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks EOYT:
@brodean And yet the selectors didn't pick him.
They picked Bell - who, I agree, had a pretty poor Super season.
I'm pretty sure the primary reason will be Ricky's size - with age relative to Bell a secondary issue.
I'm pretty sure the reason is they have a bias towards Crusaders players for the wider squads.
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