Aussie Pro Rugby
-
@nzzp said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@No-Quarter said in Aussie Rugby in general:
You cut my post in half and took it out of context. I specifically talked about the contract, and how none of us actually know what was written into it.
I suspect the contract thing is the key, but there could be an interesting legal battle about what you can and cannot be contracted to be outside of 'work'. I'm no lawyer, but the tension between freedom of association and religion and how an employer can control this could be an interesting courtroom discussion. I mean, what about joining unions, or joining a white supremacist group, or a gang, or ... well whatever really.
In the end, it wouldn't surprise me if the technical reason for the termination was due to not answering phonecalls (ie not being available), rather than for expressing the beliefs. Either way, due process seems to have been avoided and it may come back to bite the ARU.
we'll see I suppose. Weird to think I may have seen the last game Folau played in Union at Eden Park!
Precisely. Just because both parties agree to a clause doesn't mean it has any force. Just like non-compete clauses; courts have determined those in the narrowest fashion.
@antipodean said in Aussie Rugby in general:
Precisely. Just because both parties agree to a clause doesn't mean it has any force. Just like non-compete clauses; courts have determined those in the narrowest fashion.
At very least he has violated their Inclusion Policy, and I'm sure there is mention in the contract of adhering to all policies, codes, etc.
-
I guess one interesting issue for discussion is whether an employer can legally insert a clause in a contract ordering an employee to refrain from making public statements regarding his/her deeply held religious views. Has this been tested by the courts before?
But it all goes back to the perverse situation of an organisation that professes to being inclusive and supporting of gay rights paying stupid money to a guy who has publicly said that gays are going to hell to be the image of rugby union in Australia. What a complete joke.
-
@No-Quarter said in Aussie Rugby in general:
You cut my post in half and took it out of context. I specifically talked about the contract, and how none of us actually know what was written into it.
Apologies. I didn't mean for the post to be having a shot at you specifically. I was just trying to make my point in a way that contributed to the general flow of the thread, if that makes sense.
I'll delete the quote now to avoid confusion.
@barbarian said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@No-Quarter said in Aussie Rugby in general:
You cut my post in half and took it out of context. I specifically talked about the contract, and how none of us actually know what was written into it.
Apologies. I didn't mean for the post to be having a shot at you specifically. I was just trying to make my point in a way that contributed to the general flow of the thread, if that makes sense.
I'll delete the quote now to avoid confusion.
@barbarian nah no worries, I'm not in complete disagreement with you, and was corrected on the discrimination laws later in the thread anyway.
-
I guess one interesting issue for discussion is whether an employer can legally insert a clause in a contract ordering an employee to refrain from making public statements regarding his/her deeply held religious views. Has this been tested by the courts before?
But it all goes back to the perverse situation of an organisation that professes to being inclusive and supporting of gay rights paying stupid money to a guy who has publicly said that gays are going to hell to be the image of rugby union in Australia. What a complete joke.
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Aussie Rugby in general:
But it all goes back to the perverse situation of an organisation that professes to being inclusive and supporting of gay rights paying stupid money to a guy who has publicly said that gays are going to hell to be the image of rugby union in Australia. What a complete joke.
I think it's just one of the many compromises you have to make when you run a professional sport in Australia.
Every code faces the same issue - what level of off-field shit are you happy to put up with to retain a star player? David Warner hardly embodies CA's values, same with Dusty Martin in the AFL. And let's not even start on the NRL.
There's a line somewhere that varies based on how talented the player is. And Izzy is fucking good.
-
I guess one interesting issue for discussion is whether an employer can legally insert a clause in a contract ordering an employee to refrain from making public statements regarding his/her deeply held religious views. Has this been tested by the courts before?
But it all goes back to the perverse situation of an organisation that professes to being inclusive and supporting of gay rights paying stupid money to a guy who has publicly said that gays are going to hell to be the image of rugby union in Australia. What a complete joke.
@Rancid-Schnitzel isnt there likely to be the part about bringing the game and ARU into disrepute?
I expect there is something in there about sponsors too, who are likely to be offended with all thier dollars?
Heard a dude on the radio say if Jesus was real, he expects he woudl be fine with all those people Israel says will go to hell...he reckons Jesus seems like he would be a good fulla, he turned water into wine for people, took the rap for peoples sins...
-
@antipodean said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@Machpants said in Aussie Rugby in general:
When he posts it loud and proud on social media, it is everyone's business
He broke the Inclusion Policy of AR (2014) that he signed up to, just the same as everyone who signs up to specific behaviour for their job. He got a warning last time - apparently not this time
If everyone just went about their daily lives and ignored his post the world would be a better place. Instead everyone is running around drawing attention to it, magnifying the problem they assert exists. Does anybody think sacking him will stop him posting religious nonsense?
What does the ARU think his fellow religious PIs think about this outcome?
What should it matter? Do they all have to group think?
He breached the terms of his contract, all PI players should know not to breach your contract.
@Nepia said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@antipodean said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@Machpants said in Aussie Rugby in general:
When he posts it loud and proud on social media, it is everyone's business
He broke the Inclusion Policy of AR (2014) that he signed up to, just the same as everyone who signs up to specific behaviour for their job. He got a warning last time - apparently not this time
If everyone just went about their daily lives and ignored his post the world would be a better place. Instead everyone is running around drawing attention to it, magnifying the problem they assert exists. Does anybody think sacking him will stop him posting religious nonsense?
What does the ARU think his fellow religious PIs think about this outcome?
What should it matter? Do they all have to group think?
He breached the terms of his contract, all PI players should know not to breach your contract.
I missed this, not they don't all have to group think. But there's a number for whom their religion forms a very large part of their individual and group identity.
-
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Aussie Rugby in general:
But it all goes back to the perverse situation of an organisation that professes to being inclusive and supporting of gay rights paying stupid money to a guy who has publicly said that gays are going to hell to be the image of rugby union in Australia. What a complete joke.
I think it's just one of the many compromises you have to make when you run a professional sport in Australia.
Every code faces the same issue - what level of off-field shit are you happy to put up with to retain a star player? David Warner hardly embodies CA's values, same with Dusty Martin in the AFL. And let's not even start on the NRL.
There's a line somewhere that varies based on how talented the player is. And Izzy is fucking good.
@barbarian said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Aussie Rugby in general:
But it all goes back to the perverse situation of an organisation that professes to being inclusive and supporting of gay rights paying stupid money to a guy who has publicly said that gays are going to hell to be the image of rugby union in Australia. What a complete joke.
I think it's just one of the many compromises you have to make when you run a professional sport in Australia.
Every code faces the same issue - what level of off-field shit are you happy to put up with to retain a star player? David Warner hardly embodies CA's values, same with Dusty Martin in the AFL. And let's not even start on the NRL.
There's a line somewhere that varies based on how talented the player is. And Izzy is fucking good.
Not really. It's one thing behaving like a drunken tool and another publicly stating that gay people are headed for hell. Anti-racism is also important for AR. If a guy made a disgusting racist comment on Twitter (for example, mixed race couples are an abomination) and refused to back down, would it be an acceptable compromise when running a professional sport to make that guy the poster boy for and face of your sport? If they want to loudly proclaim they're working to create a better world they can at least be fair dinkum about it. Same goes for those hypocritical twats at Qantas.
-
@Rancid-Schnitzel isnt there likely to be the part about bringing the game and ARU into disrepute?
I expect there is something in there about sponsors too, who are likely to be offended with all thier dollars?
Heard a dude on the radio say if Jesus was real, he expects he woudl be fine with all those people Israel says will go to hell...he reckons Jesus seems like he would be a good fulla, he turned water into wine for people, took the rap for peoples sins...
@taniwharugby said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@Rancid-Schnitzel isnt there likely to be the part about bringing the game and ARU into disrepute?
I expect there is something in there about sponsors too, who are likely to be offended with all thier dollars?
Heard a dude on the radio say if Jesus was real, he expects he woudl be fine with all those people Israel says will go to hell...he reckons Jesus seems like he would be a good fulla, he turned water into wine for people, took the rap for peoples sins...
Yeah I've never understood the alcohol thing. Jesus saved the day by turning water into wine. How can drinking alcohol then be a sin? And of course the Eucharist with the wine being my blood etc. Surely not drinking alcohol is a sin!
-
-
Izzy is an old testament kind of guy no?
@Paekakboyz said in Aussie Rugby in general:
Izzy is an old testament kind of guy no?
-
@barbarian said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Aussie Rugby in general:
But it all goes back to the perverse situation of an organisation that professes to being inclusive and supporting of gay rights paying stupid money to a guy who has publicly said that gays are going to hell to be the image of rugby union in Australia. What a complete joke.
I think it's just one of the many compromises you have to make when you run a professional sport in Australia.
Every code faces the same issue - what level of off-field shit are you happy to put up with to retain a star player? David Warner hardly embodies CA's values, same with Dusty Martin in the AFL. And let's not even start on the NRL.
There's a line somewhere that varies based on how talented the player is. And Izzy is fucking good.
Not really. It's one thing behaving like a drunken tool and another publicly stating that gay people are headed for hell. Anti-racism is also important for AR. If a guy made a disgusting racist comment on Twitter (for example, mixed race couples are an abomination) and refused to back down, would it be an acceptable compromise when running a professional sport to make that guy the poster boy for and face of your sport? If they want to loudly proclaim they're working to create a better world they can at least be fair dinkum about it. Same goes for those hypocritical twats at Qantas.
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@barbarian said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Aussie Rugby in general:
But it all goes back to the perverse situation of an organisation that professes to being inclusive and supporting of gay rights paying stupid money to a guy who has publicly said that gays are going to hell to be the image of rugby union in Australia. What a complete joke.
I think it's just one of the many compromises you have to make when you run a professional sport in Australia.
Every code faces the same issue - what level of off-field shit are you happy to put up with to retain a star player? David Warner hardly embodies CA's values, same with Dusty Martin in the AFL. And let's not even start on the NRL.
There's a line somewhere that varies based on how talented the player is. And Izzy is fucking good.
Not really. It's one thing behaving like a drunken tool and another publicly stating that gay people are headed for hell. Anti-racism is also important for AR. If a guy made a disgusting racist comment on Twitter (for example, mixed race couples are an abomination) and refused to back down, would it be an acceptable compromise when running a professional sport to make that guy the poster boy for and face of your sport? If they want to loudly proclaim they're working to create a better world they can at least be fair dinkum about it. Same goes for those hypocritical twats at Qantas.
Mixed races not ok either, in the old testament
1 Kings 11:1-43
Now King Solomon loved many foreign women, along with the daughter of Pharaoh: Moabite, Ammonite, Edomite, Sidonian, and Hittite women, from the nations concerning which the Lord had said to the people of Israel, “You shall not enter into marriage with them, neither shall they with you, for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods.”
-
Wow so many layers to this one. All of it really a storm in a teacup truth be known. Nonsense talk in a fragile world.
I guess the employment contract holds sway
If Izzy is ok with the termination then it's no different to us leaving a job. Each to their own
On a side note if anyone is offended by Izzy's articulation of his make believe friend's expectations then you're of no use to our species and have a retarded view of the physical world
If you're offended on behalf of someone else you haven't met, then you need counselling for your nihilismIn my opinion
-
Wow so many layers to this one. All of it really a storm in a teacup truth be known. Nonsense talk in a fragile world.
I guess the employment contract holds sway
If Izzy is ok with the termination then it's no different to us leaving a job. Each to their own
On a side note if anyone is offended by Izzy's articulation of his make believe friend's expectations then you're of no use to our species and have a retarded view of the physical world
If you're offended on behalf of someone else you haven't met, then you need counselling for your nihilismIn my opinion
-
@Siam from what I heard on the radio on the way home today, Israel is not happy with his impending termination and will fight it, also apparently does not regret his post
@taniwharugby ahh cool. Bit dim then really.
Of most relevance in this story is that the Aussies just lost half their try scoring options.
-
Wow so many layers to this one. All of it really a storm in a teacup truth be known. Nonsense talk in a fragile world.
I guess the employment contract holds sway
If Izzy is ok with the termination then it's no different to us leaving a job. Each to their own
On a side note if anyone is offended by Izzy's articulation of his make believe friend's expectations then you're of no use to our species and have a retarded view of the physical world
If you're offended on behalf of someone else you haven't met, then you need counselling for your nihilismIn my opinion
-
@nzzp said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@No-Quarter said in Aussie Rugby in general:
You cut my post in half and took it out of context. I specifically talked about the contract, and how none of us actually know what was written into it.
I suspect the contract thing is the key, but there could be an interesting legal battle about what you can and cannot be contracted to be outside of 'work'. I'm no lawyer, but the tension between freedom of association and religion and how an employer can control this could be an interesting courtroom discussion. I mean, what about joining unions, or joining a white supremacist group, or a gang, or ... well whatever really.
In the end, it wouldn't surprise me if the technical reason for the termination was due to not answering phonecalls (ie not being available), rather than for expressing the beliefs. Either way, due process seems to have been avoided and it may come back to bite the ARU.
we'll see I suppose. Weird to think I may have seen the last game Folau played in Union at Eden Park!
Precisely. Just because both parties agree to a clause doesn't mean it has any force. Just like non-compete clauses; courts have determined those in the narrowest fashion.
@antipodean said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@nzzp said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@No-Quarter said in Aussie Rugby in general:
You cut my post in half and took it out of context. I specifically talked about the contract, and how none of us actually know what was written into it.
I suspect the contract thing is the key, but there could be an interesting legal battle about what you can and cannot be contracted to be outside of 'work'. I'm no lawyer, but the tension between freedom of association and religion and how an employer can control this could be an interesting courtroom discussion. I mean, what about joining unions, or joining a white supremacist group, or a gang, or ... well whatever really.
In the end, it wouldn't surprise me if the technical reason for the termination was due to not answering phonecalls (ie not being available), rather than for expressing the beliefs. Either way, due process seems to have been avoided and it may come back to bite the ARU.
we'll see I suppose. Weird to think I may have seen the last game Folau played in Union at Eden Park!
Precisely. Just because both parties agree to a clause doesn't mean it has any force. Just like non-compete clauses; courts have determined those in the narrowest fashion.
Non competes are a bit different as they attempt to make a direction when the employee is no longer employed.
As long as the clause doesn’t contradict Fair Work then it should be fine. I’ve worked for organisations in Oz that have punted staff for code of conduct reasons.
-
Folau stood down by NSW Rugby, still faces axe after meeting with Rugby AU
After more than 24 hours of attempting to contact Folau, Rugby Australia and NSW Rugby met with the 30-year-old at the Rugby Australia offices on Friday and remained unmoved in their determination to terminate his four-year, multi-million dollar contract. Initially, no suspension had been imposed on Folau but NSW Rugby released a statement on Friday night confirming it would stand the fullback down. The Waratahs are on a bye this week but will reconvene early next week ahead of their round 10 clash against the Rebels at the SCG.Friday's meeting came after Folau was seen with Rugby Union Players' Association (RUPA) CEO Prataal Raj in Sydney's south-east earlier in the day. RUPA representatives were also with Folau at the meeting on Friday. "Rugby Australia and the NSW Rugby Union have met with Israel Folau in Sydney today," a Rugby Australia statement said. "As the meeting was held in confidence between the player and his employers, Rugby Australia and the NSW Rugby Union will not comment on the discussions at the meeting. "Following today’s meeting the two organisations will update their respective boards on the matter to consider next steps. "Our joint position regarding Israel Folau is unchanged."A statement from RUPA indicated that Folau intends to fight to save his career in Australian rugby and that any dismissal would need to occur under the Code of Conducts as opposed to any other grounds for termination. In cases of a Code of Conduct, the player in question would have to face a three-person independent disciplinary tribunal, like that which was established in 2014 to address Kurtley Beale's breach. "It is important to note that Israel remains contracted to both Rugby Australia and the NSW Waratahs at this time, and as such has signalled his intention to continue to honour his contract," the RUPA statement read. "It is RUPA’s position that any disciplinary action must be dealt with in accordance with the Rugby AU Professional Player Code of Conduct. RUPA will work alongside Israel and his representatives, the NSW Rugby Union and Rugby Australia to ensure that this process is followed. "RUPA will continue to offer our support to Israel as required. "The views expressed by Israel are his alone and are not endorsed by RUPA."Rugby Australia has not made public their specific grounds for termination and it is unclear how long the process would take regardless of the grounds. (...) -
@antipodean said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@nzzp said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@No-Quarter said in Aussie Rugby in general:
You cut my post in half and took it out of context. I specifically talked about the contract, and how none of us actually know what was written into it.
I suspect the contract thing is the key, but there could be an interesting legal battle about what you can and cannot be contracted to be outside of 'work'. I'm no lawyer, but the tension between freedom of association and religion and how an employer can control this could be an interesting courtroom discussion. I mean, what about joining unions, or joining a white supremacist group, or a gang, or ... well whatever really.
In the end, it wouldn't surprise me if the technical reason for the termination was due to not answering phonecalls (ie not being available), rather than for expressing the beliefs. Either way, due process seems to have been avoided and it may come back to bite the ARU.
we'll see I suppose. Weird to think I may have seen the last game Folau played in Union at Eden Park!
Precisely. Just because both parties agree to a clause doesn't mean it has any force. Just like non-compete clauses; courts have determined those in the narrowest fashion.
Non competes are a bit different as they attempt to make a direction when the employee is no longer employed.
As long as the clause doesn’t contradict Fair Work then it should be fine. I’ve worked for organisations in Oz that have punted staff for code of conduct reasons.
@Nepia said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@antipodean said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@nzzp said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@No-Quarter said in Aussie Rugby in general:
You cut my post in half and took it out of context. I specifically talked about the contract, and how none of us actually know what was written into it.
I suspect the contract thing is the key, but there could be an interesting legal battle about what you can and cannot be contracted to be outside of 'work'. I'm no lawyer, but the tension between freedom of association and religion and how an employer can control this could be an interesting courtroom discussion. I mean, what about joining unions, or joining a white supremacist group, or a gang, or ... well whatever really.
In the end, it wouldn't surprise me if the technical reason for the termination was due to not answering phonecalls (ie not being available), rather than for expressing the beliefs. Either way, due process seems to have been avoided and it may come back to bite the ARU.
we'll see I suppose. Weird to think I may have seen the last game Folau played in Union at Eden Park!
Precisely. Just because both parties agree to a clause doesn't mean it has any force. Just like non-compete clauses; courts have determined those in the narrowest fashion.
Non competes are a bit different as they attempt to make a direction when the employee is no longer employed.
As long as the clause doesn’t contradict Fair Work then it should be fine. I’ve worked for organisations in Oz that have punted staff for code of conduct reasons.
Were any of them expressing their religious beliefs on social media?
-
@Nepia said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@antipodean said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@nzzp said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@No-Quarter said in Aussie Rugby in general:
You cut my post in half and took it out of context. I specifically talked about the contract, and how none of us actually know what was written into it.
I suspect the contract thing is the key, but there could be an interesting legal battle about what you can and cannot be contracted to be outside of 'work'. I'm no lawyer, but the tension between freedom of association and religion and how an employer can control this could be an interesting courtroom discussion. I mean, what about joining unions, or joining a white supremacist group, or a gang, or ... well whatever really.
In the end, it wouldn't surprise me if the technical reason for the termination was due to not answering phonecalls (ie not being available), rather than for expressing the beliefs. Either way, due process seems to have been avoided and it may come back to bite the ARU.
we'll see I suppose. Weird to think I may have seen the last game Folau played in Union at Eden Park!
Precisely. Just because both parties agree to a clause doesn't mean it has any force. Just like non-compete clauses; courts have determined those in the narrowest fashion.
Non competes are a bit different as they attempt to make a direction when the employee is no longer employed.
As long as the clause doesn’t contradict Fair Work then it should be fine. I’ve worked for organisations in Oz that have punted staff for code of conduct reasons.
Were any of them expressing their religious beliefs on social media?
