Aussie Pro Rugby
-
@antipodean said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@Nepia said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@antipodean said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@Nepia said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@antipodean said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@nzzp said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@No-Quarter said in Aussie Rugby in general:
You cut my post in half and took it out of context. I specifically talked about the contract, and how none of us actually know what was written into it.
I suspect the contract thing is the key, but there could be an interesting legal battle about what you can and cannot be contracted to be outside of 'work'. I'm no lawyer, but the tension between freedom of association and religion and how an employer can control this could be an interesting courtroom discussion. I mean, what about joining unions, or joining a white supremacist group, or a gang, or ... well whatever really.
In the end, it wouldn't surprise me if the technical reason for the termination was due to not answering phonecalls (ie not being available), rather than for expressing the beliefs. Either way, due process seems to have been avoided and it may come back to bite the ARU.
we'll see I suppose. Weird to think I may have seen the last game Folau played in Union at Eden Park!
Precisely. Just because both parties agree to a clause doesn't mean it has any force. Just like non-compete clauses; courts have determined those in the narrowest fashion.
Non competes are a bit different as they attempt to make a direction when the employee is no longer employed.
As long as the clause doesn’t contradict Fair Work then it should be fine. I’ve worked for organisations in Oz that have punted staff for code of conduct reasons.
Were any of them expressing their religious beliefs on social media?
The 'how' is not the point, the point was they breached the agreed upon code of conduct.
My point was it doesn't necessarily matter if both parties agreed to that code of conduct.
That’s a debate about contract enforcement - not religious beliefs.
@Nepia said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@antipodean said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@Nepia said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@antipodean said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@Nepia said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@antipodean said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@nzzp said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@No-Quarter said in Aussie Rugby in general:
You cut my post in half and took it out of context. I specifically talked about the contract, and how none of us actually know what was written into it.
I suspect the contract thing is the key, but there could be an interesting legal battle about what you can and cannot be contracted to be outside of 'work'. I'm no lawyer, but the tension between freedom of association and religion and how an employer can control this could be an interesting courtroom discussion. I mean, what about joining unions, or joining a white supremacist group, or a gang, or ... well whatever really.
In the end, it wouldn't surprise me if the technical reason for the termination was due to not answering phonecalls (ie not being available), rather than for expressing the beliefs. Either way, due process seems to have been avoided and it may come back to bite the ARU.
we'll see I suppose. Weird to think I may have seen the last game Folau played in Union at Eden Park!
Precisely. Just because both parties agree to a clause doesn't mean it has any force. Just like non-compete clauses; courts have determined those in the narrowest fashion.
Non competes are a bit different as they attempt to make a direction when the employee is no longer employed.
As long as the clause doesn’t contradict Fair Work then it should be fine. I’ve worked for organisations in Oz that have punted staff for code of conduct reasons.
Were any of them expressing their religious beliefs on social media?
The 'how' is not the point, the point was they breached the agreed upon code of conduct.
My point was it doesn't necessarily matter if both parties agreed to that code of conduct.
That’s a debate about contract enforcement - not religious beliefs.
I don't see how you're separating them in this instance.
-
@Nepia said in Aussie Rugby in general:
Religion shouldn't be used as a get out of jail free card when a code of conduct or contract is breached.
Not too sure it's as simple as that if Folau hasn't broken any law with his comments.
What if a code of conduct or contract prevents someone from expressing his or her religious beliefs? Aren't you discriminating on religious grounds or free speech grounds if you then punish the player for expressing his/her beliefs?
Or does the ARU (for example) refuse contracts to players with certain religious or political views?
@Victor-Meldrew said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@Nepia said in Aussie Rugby in general:
Religion shouldn't be used as a get out of jail free card when a code of conduct or contract is breached.
Not too sure it's as simple as that if Folau hasn't broken any law with his comments.
What if a code of conduct or contract prevents someone from expressing his or her religious beliefs? Aren't you discriminating on religious grounds or free speech grounds if you then punish the player for expressing his/her beliefs?
Or does the ARU (for example) refuse contracts to players with certain religious or political views?
The code of conduct at my work stops me from expressing my beliefs about certain subjects in a public forum. When I signed my contract and the code of conduct I was aware of it and agreed to it.
I think the religious beliefs don’t matter (freedom of speech is an irrelevant red herring in this case) - it’s whether the contract and code are enforceable.
I think one of the issues mudding the waters is any players agreements that exist in Oz rugby.
-
@Nepia said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@antipodean said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@Nepia said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@antipodean said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@Nepia said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@antipodean said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@nzzp said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@No-Quarter said in Aussie Rugby in general:
You cut my post in half and took it out of context. I specifically talked about the contract, and how none of us actually know what was written into it.
I suspect the contract thing is the key, but there could be an interesting legal battle about what you can and cannot be contracted to be outside of 'work'. I'm no lawyer, but the tension between freedom of association and religion and how an employer can control this could be an interesting courtroom discussion. I mean, what about joining unions, or joining a white supremacist group, or a gang, or ... well whatever really.
In the end, it wouldn't surprise me if the technical reason for the termination was due to not answering phonecalls (ie not being available), rather than for expressing the beliefs. Either way, due process seems to have been avoided and it may come back to bite the ARU.
we'll see I suppose. Weird to think I may have seen the last game Folau played in Union at Eden Park!
Precisely. Just because both parties agree to a clause doesn't mean it has any force. Just like non-compete clauses; courts have determined those in the narrowest fashion.
Non competes are a bit different as they attempt to make a direction when the employee is no longer employed.
As long as the clause doesn’t contradict Fair Work then it should be fine. I’ve worked for organisations in Oz that have punted staff for code of conduct reasons.
Were any of them expressing their religious beliefs on social media?
The 'how' is not the point, the point was they breached the agreed upon code of conduct.
My point was it doesn't necessarily matter if both parties agreed to that code of conduct.
That’s a debate about contract enforcement - not religious beliefs.
I don't see how you're separating them in this instance.
@antipodean said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@Nepia said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@antipodean said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@Nepia said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@antipodean said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@Nepia said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@antipodean said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@nzzp said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@No-Quarter said in Aussie Rugby in general:
You cut my post in half and took it out of context. I specifically talked about the contract, and how none of us actually know what was written into it.
I suspect the contract thing is the key, but there could be an interesting legal battle about what you can and cannot be contracted to be outside of 'work'. I'm no lawyer, but the tension between freedom of association and religion and how an employer can control this could be an interesting courtroom discussion. I mean, what about joining unions, or joining a white supremacist group, or a gang, or ... well whatever really.
In the end, it wouldn't surprise me if the technical reason for the termination was due to not answering phonecalls (ie not being available), rather than for expressing the beliefs. Either way, due process seems to have been avoided and it may come back to bite the ARU.
we'll see I suppose. Weird to think I may have seen the last game Folau played in Union at Eden Park!
Precisely. Just because both parties agree to a clause doesn't mean it has any force. Just like non-compete clauses; courts have determined those in the narrowest fashion.
Non competes are a bit different as they attempt to make a direction when the employee is no longer employed.
As long as the clause doesn’t contradict Fair Work then it should be fine. I’ve worked for organisations in Oz that have punted staff for code of conduct reasons.
Were any of them expressing their religious beliefs on social media?
The 'how' is not the point, the point was they breached the agreed upon code of conduct.
My point was it doesn't necessarily matter if both parties agreed to that code of conduct.
That’s a debate about contract enforcement - not religious beliefs.
I don't see how you're separating them in this instance.
They’re two separate issues. Did Folau break the code of conduct/contract or not. If you feel that he should be allowed break it for religious reasons that’s one thing, however if he does get his contract cut it won’t be because he’s Christian.
-
@antipodean said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@Nepia said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@antipodean said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@Nepia said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@antipodean said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@Nepia said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@antipodean said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@nzzp said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@No-Quarter said in Aussie Rugby in general:
You cut my post in half and took it out of context. I specifically talked about the contract, and how none of us actually know what was written into it.
I suspect the contract thing is the key, but there could be an interesting legal battle about what you can and cannot be contracted to be outside of 'work'. I'm no lawyer, but the tension between freedom of association and religion and how an employer can control this could be an interesting courtroom discussion. I mean, what about joining unions, or joining a white supremacist group, or a gang, or ... well whatever really.
In the end, it wouldn't surprise me if the technical reason for the termination was due to not answering phonecalls (ie not being available), rather than for expressing the beliefs. Either way, due process seems to have been avoided and it may come back to bite the ARU.
we'll see I suppose. Weird to think I may have seen the last game Folau played in Union at Eden Park!
Precisely. Just because both parties agree to a clause doesn't mean it has any force. Just like non-compete clauses; courts have determined those in the narrowest fashion.
Non competes are a bit different as they attempt to make a direction when the employee is no longer employed.
As long as the clause doesn’t contradict Fair Work then it should be fine. I’ve worked for organisations in Oz that have punted staff for code of conduct reasons.
Were any of them expressing their religious beliefs on social media?
The 'how' is not the point, the point was they breached the agreed upon code of conduct.
My point was it doesn't necessarily matter if both parties agreed to that code of conduct.
That’s a debate about contract enforcement - not religious beliefs.
I don't see how you're separating them in this instance.
They’re two separate issues. Did Folau break the code of conduct/contract or not. If you feel that he should be allowed break it for religious reasons that’s one thing, however if he does get his contract cut it won’t be because he’s Christian.
@Nepia said in Aussie Rugby in general:
They’re two separate issues. Did Folau break the code of conduct/contract or not.
Ahh, you've linked them there yourself.
As far as I can ascertain the contract between himself and RA is subject to the player agreement. RA inserted a clause about social media and he accepted it. That's the first issue that requires resolution. My point has always been just because two parties agree to a clause doesn't mean it gets to be enforced.
The second is if they're saying they'll progress this as a code of conduct issue, expressing religious beliefs on social media purportedly isn't expressly verboten.
So what do we have? Reports termination of a contract where the specific clause can't exist which makes termination by breach some what contentious. Folau isn't accepting he's out of a job, so termination by agreement is off the table. So repudiation will undoubtedly lead to remedies.
Either way it looks like RA is between a rock and a hard place.
-
@Nepia said in Aussie Rugby in general:
They’re two separate issues. Did Folau break the code of conduct/contract or not.
Ahh, you've linked them there yourself.
As far as I can ascertain the contract between himself and RA is subject to the player agreement. RA inserted a clause about social media and he accepted it. That's the first issue that requires resolution. My point has always been just because two parties agree to a clause doesn't mean it gets to be enforced.
The second is if they're saying they'll progress this as a code of conduct issue, expressing religious beliefs on social media purportedly isn't expressly verboten.
So what do we have? Reports termination of a contract where the specific clause can't exist which makes termination by breach some what contentious. Folau isn't accepting he's out of a job, so termination by agreement is off the table. So repudiation will undoubtedly lead to remedies.
Either way it looks like RA is between a rock and a hard place.
@antipodean said in Aussie Rugby in general:
Either way it looks like RA is between a rock and a hard place
Were anyway...your star player is a bit dim and likes to shake Hornets nests in a society that largely condemns, well everything on behalf of everyone.
-
@antipodean said in Aussie Rugby in general:
Either way it looks like RA is between a rock and a hard place
Were anyway...your star player is a bit dim and likes to shake Hornets nests in a society that largely condemns, well everything on behalf of everyone.
@taniwharugby said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@antipodean said in Aussie Rugby in general:
Either way it looks like RA is between a rock and a hard place
Were anyway...your star player is a bit dim and likes to shake Hornets nests in a society that largely condemns, well everything on behalf of everyone.
The outrage mob is toxic as fuck though. As mentioned earlier in the thread I'm not the comfortable with a guy losing his job over a social media post that doesn't breach any laws - RA trying to tear up his contract is a direct reaction to the outrage mobs.
I'd like to think people would view freedom of speech not just as a law, but as a value as well. If someone holds a belief that you disagree with, call them out and and tell them why they're wrong - fill your boots. But campaigns to have someone fired really flies in the face of what free speech is all about, and I'm pretty uncomfortable with the amount of people that are happy to ruin peoples lives over comments they may have made.
-
Really short of fucks to give now as the pile on seems to be getting a bit ott , also I don't want to be part of anything that seems to include every woke ,obnoxious , narcissistic self aggrandising fluffybunny in New Zealand.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/celebrities/111994696/kiwi-celebrities-slam-folau
-
Really short of fucks to give now as the pile on seems to be getting a bit ott , also I don't want to be part of anything that seems to include every woke ,obnoxious , narcissistic self aggrandising fluffybunny in New Zealand.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/celebrities/111994696/kiwi-celebrities-slam-folau
@jegga said in Aussie Rugby in general:
Really short of fucks to give now as the pile on seems to be getting a bit ott ,
Yeah. You wonder how the response would be if he was Muslim. Would they pile in the same way?
I don't agree with Folau, but fark me, losing your job over faith ... that shit is tough.
-
@jegga said in Aussie Rugby in general:
Really short of fucks to give now as the pile on seems to be getting a bit ott ,
Yeah. You wonder how the response would be if he was Muslim. Would they pile in the same way?
I don't agree with Folau, but fark me, losing your job over faith ... that shit is tough.
@nzzp I guess it all comes back to the expectations they have around social media and havent most Unions been pretty hot on 'advising' them what they should and shouldnt post for the past 3 or 4 years?
Add in the big dollars that come in from the sponsors, it isnt just the employers you need to worry about offending.
-
@jegga said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@Catogrande said in Aussie Rugby in general:
Billy, for God's sakes just shut up.
No keep talking mate , its rwc year .
Has Itoje said anything yet ?
What with you and then @MiketheSnow ”liking” a post about Eddie fucking us up at scrum half, I’m beginning to think you guys are getting wary about England again. That’s quite comforting. Thank you.
@Catogrande said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@jegga said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@Catogrande said in Aussie Rugby in general:
Billy, for God's sakes just shut up.
No keep talking mate , its rwc year .
Has Itoje said anything yet ?
What with you and then @MiketheSnow ”liking” a post about Eddie fucking us up at scrum half, I’m beginning to think you guys are getting wary about England again. That’s quite comforting. Thank you.
Anyone who isn't wary about England is asleep at the wheel.
The 'like' was more about Eddie's incompetence to develop depth.
-
@jegga said in Aussie Rugby in general:
Really short of fucks to give now as the pile on seems to be getting a bit ott ,
Yeah. You wonder how the response would be if he was Muslim. Would they pile in the same way?
I don't agree with Folau, but fark me, losing your job over faith ... that shit is tough.
@nzzp said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@jegga said in Aussie Rugby in general:
Really short of fucks to give now as the pile on seems to be getting a bit ott ,
Yeah. You wonder how the response would be if he was Muslim. Would they pile in the same way?
I don't agree with Folau, but fark me, losing your job over faith ... that shit is tough.
As I mentioned earlier SBW hangs out with a preacher who says gays are worse than animals and zero comebacks from the NZRU.
What happens between Folau and the ARU is between them . It’s rwc year so I hope they sack him , also Toby Faletau and Vunipola should get the arse for liking his post and Itoje should get axed because his clapping and histrionics irritate me . He’s basically a yeast infection in human form .
All the local shitlebrities knowing they are on safe ground mocking him and joining the pile on to clock up virtue points fucks me off though . Apparently we can all point and laugh at christians for believing different things to the rest of us and no one is going to pull you up on it but mock a member of the LGBTQ community or a race/religion with enough oppression points and theyll take to twitter and instagram with the shrillness of a fishwife shedding the lining of her uterus.
-
"He makes Ned Flanders seem like Keith Richard in comparison."
-
@nzzp said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@jegga said in Aussie Rugby in general:
Really short of fucks to give now as the pile on seems to be getting a bit ott ,
Yeah. You wonder how the response would be if he was Muslim. Would they pile in the same way?
I don't agree with Folau, but fark me, losing your job over faith ... that shit is tough.
As I mentioned earlier SBW hangs out with a preacher who says gays are worse than animals and zero comebacks from the NZRU.
What happens between Folau and the ARU is between them . It’s rwc year so I hope they sack him , also Toby Faletau and Vunipola should get the arse for liking his post and Itoje should get axed because his clapping and histrionics irritate me . He’s basically a yeast infection in human form .
All the local shitlebrities knowing they are on safe ground mocking him and joining the pile on to clock up virtue points fucks me off though . Apparently we can all point and laugh at christians for believing different things to the rest of us and no one is going to pull you up on it but mock a member of the LGBTQ community or a race/religion with enough oppression points and theyll take to twitter and instagram with the shrillness of a fishwife shedding the lining of her uterus.
-
@jegga said in Aussie Rugby in general:
Really short of fucks to give now as the pile on seems to be getting a bit ott ,
Yeah. You wonder how the response would be if he was Muslim. Would they pile in the same way?
I don't agree with Folau, but fark me, losing your job over faith ... that shit is tough.
@nzzp said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@jegga said in Aussie Rugby in general:
Really short of fucks to give now as the pile on seems to be getting a bit ott ,
Yeah. You wonder how the response would be if he was Muslim. Would they pile in the same way?
I don't agree with Folau, but fark me, losing your job over faith ... that shit is tough.
Soooo... You think they're going to heaven instead?
-
@nzzp said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@jegga said in Aussie Rugby in general:
Really short of fucks to give now as the pile on seems to be getting a bit ott ,
Yeah. You wonder how the response would be if he was Muslim. Would they pile in the same way?
I don't agree with Folau, but fark me, losing your job over faith ... that shit is tough.
Soooo... You think they're going to heaven instead?
-
@nzzp said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@jegga said in Aussie Rugby in general:
Really short of fucks to give now as the pile on seems to be getting a bit ott ,
Yeah. You wonder how the response would be if he was Muslim. Would they pile in the same way?
I don't agree with Folau, but fark me, losing your job over faith ... that shit is tough.
Soooo... You think they're going to heaven instead?
@Bones said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@nzzp said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@jegga said in Aussie Rugby in general:
Really short of fucks to give now as the pile on seems to be getting a bit ott ,
Yeah. You wonder how the response would be if he was Muslim. Would they pile in the same way?
I don't agree with Folau, but fark me, losing your job over faith ... that shit is tough.
Soooo... You think they're going to heaven instead?
I don't think theyr'e going anywhere. I don't think judging others based on religion is sensible at all.
-
@Victor-Meldrew said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@Nepia said in Aussie Rugby in general:
Religion shouldn't be used as a get out of jail free card when a code of conduct or contract is breached.
Not too sure it's as simple as that if Folau hasn't broken any law with his comments.
What if a code of conduct or contract prevents someone from expressing his or her religious beliefs? Aren't you discriminating on religious grounds or free speech grounds if you then punish the player for expressing his/her beliefs?
Or does the ARU (for example) refuse contracts to players with certain religious or political views?
The code of conduct at my work stops me from expressing my beliefs about certain subjects in a public forum. When I signed my contract and the code of conduct I was aware of it and agreed to it.
I think the religious beliefs don’t matter (freedom of speech is an irrelevant red herring in this case) - it’s whether the contract and code are enforceable.
I think one of the issues mudding the waters is any players agreements that exist in Oz rugby.
@Nepia said in Aussie Rugby in general:
I think the religious beliefs don’t matter (freedom of speech is an irrelevant red herring in this case) - it’s whether the contract and code are enforceable.
Contract law rates pretty low on the legal scale. Can't imagine any contract that banned expression of legitimate religious beliefs - no matter how offensive some might think they are - being enforceable. If it were, you could sack any rugby player who told the world he converted to Islam and accepted that religion's view on gay sex.
The ARU could try for a "Bringing the game into disrepute" contract clause if it exists. Personally, I wonder if it may be better to let him carry on and remove all doubt he's a twat.
-
@Nepia said in Aussie Rugby in general:
I think the religious beliefs don’t matter (freedom of speech is an irrelevant red herring in this case) - it’s whether the contract and code are enforceable.
Contract law rates pretty low on the legal scale. Can't imagine any contract that banned expression of legitimate religious beliefs - no matter how offensive some might think they are - being enforceable. If it were, you could sack any rugby player who told the world he converted to Islam and accepted that religion's view on gay sex.
The ARU could try for a "Bringing the game into disrepute" contract clause if it exists. Personally, I wonder if it may be better to let him carry on and remove all doubt he's a twat.
@Victor-Meldrew said in Aussie Rugby in general:
Contract law rates pretty low on the legal scale. Can't imagine any contract that banned expression of legitimate religious beliefs - no matter how offensive some might think they are - being enforceable
You'd have to be an idiot to even draft it.
Ladies and gentlemen: Rugby Australia.
Nah actually they're not even quite that stupid. As you say: disrepute is what they've got to hang their hat on. And jumping early with statements like "terminate" may come back to haunt them.
-
@Nepia said in Aussie Rugby in general:
I think the religious beliefs don’t matter (freedom of speech is an irrelevant red herring in this case) - it’s whether the contract and code are enforceable.
Contract law rates pretty low on the legal scale. Can't imagine any contract that banned expression of legitimate religious beliefs - no matter how offensive some might think they are - being enforceable. If it were, you could sack any rugby player who told the world he converted to Islam and accepted that religion's view on gay sex.
The ARU could try for a "Bringing the game into disrepute" contract clause if it exists. Personally, I wonder if it may be better to let him carry on and remove all doubt he's a twat.
The story I heard relates to sponsors removing their dollars unless he’s fired, which they interpret as bringing the game into disrepute. I’m not a lawyer, but I’ve had friends fired for less.
-
@Victor-Meldrew said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@Nepia said in Aussie Rugby in general:
Religion shouldn't be used as a get out of jail free card when a code of conduct or contract is breached.
Not too sure it's as simple as that if Folau hasn't broken any law with his comments.
What if a code of conduct or contract prevents someone from expressing his or her religious beliefs? Aren't you discriminating on religious grounds or free speech grounds if you then punish the player for expressing his/her beliefs?
Or does the ARU (for example) refuse contracts to players with certain religious or political views?
For that he would have to prove that his religion espouses what he posted and that opens a huge can of worms what with translations/versions etc
@Crucial said in Aussie Rugby in general:
For that he would have to prove that his religion espouses what he posted and that opens a huge can of worms what with translations/versions etc
Yep. When an employer starts deciding which beliefs and opinions it's employees are allowed to hold and express, you need a opener for a bloody big can.
Knowing the ARU, they're probably looking for one right now...
