Aussie Pro Rugby

[NTA]

@antipodean I think it comes down to people picking and choosing the bits they like, and feeling they're superior for doing it.

@no-quarter said in Aussie Rugby in general:

Also, there is not a single religious person of any faith that takes all of their holy books at face value, namely because their holy books are full of contradictions.

So we can now move away from the religious angle and get on with the rugby talk. Fully aware that I was part of it, but I've finished, so the rest of you can move on with me

[barbarian]

@nta said in Aussie Rugby in general:

@antipodean I think it comes down to people picking and choosing the bits they like, and feeling they're superior for doing it.

Without wanting to get into a detailed theological discussion, throwing passages from Leviticus around doesn't help much.

Plenty of stuff in the Old Testament that is widely ignored, or used more as a historical context rather than any sort of guidebook for life.

Folau probably needs to spin his way into the new-age Christian, the 'God loves all children' model where the gays, Muslims and adulterers all receive the love of Christ whether they want it or not.

I'm not sure he's smart enough for that sadly.

[barbarian]

@virgil said in Aussie Rugby in general:

Or they just keep their out of touch opinions to themselves?

Given the number of Polynesian players in Aussie rugby (and Kiwi rugby for that matter), I think you'd be surprised how many people agree with Izzy. He's had some support from current players on social media.

It's a real risk for the ARU, because if they are perceived to be anti-Christian then there could be big consequences for the retention of Islander players at all levels.

As Nick would know, while they can sometimes be hard to deal with (organisationally) you can't deny how important those communities are to the grassroots of the game.

[Virgil]

I’ve been around a lot of religious types, grown up with best mates that are Christian, worked and flatted with a few too.
Biggest thing I can take away from my experiences is most of them are the biggest hypocrites and nut bars you will come across.
One was a flat who wouldn’t let her son watch Harry Potter because it encoraged witch craft, yet she was happy to piss it up and bring the odd guy home..

I wonder how many of Gods laws Izzy is happy to break while condemning gays.

[mariner4life]

Just to take the discussion back to the demise of rugby in Australia.

Country rugby in Queensland continues its slow death. It's not too long since the Country championship in Qld saw the rep sides from the different regions play each other to find the best in the State. A Qld Country team was then selected from that. It was great, between 6 & 8 games a year, with away trips every other weekend.

The funding for that dried up (via the disaster when they got the Brisbane Prem sides involved, and we copped some absolute floggings) and it is now reduced to the point where inside the 3 major regions (North/Central/South Qld) the sides play each other over the course of a weekend, to select a regional rep side. So local players play at most 3 rep games, the better players get a couple more.

North Queensland was supposed to have their 'tournament" in Mackay this year. They have since pulled out. They couldn't put together a rep side to play in their own back yard. That's pretty fucking damning

[antipodean]

In further evidence of the decline, Brothers had a 37 year old make his club debut running around for them in premier grade last weekend.

[Nepia]

@no-quarter said in Aussie Rugby in general:

@nta said in Aussie Rugby in general:

Behold the TRUTH according to the word of the LORD as handed down in the BIBLE:

Leviticus 11:9-12 King James Version (KJV)
9 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

So does Israel like him a bit of crustacean?

Yes, the bible is ridiculous. But if he wants to believe in it, then he has to take the whole lot at face value.

I think it has been blown out of proportion at this point. Everyone might just do better to shut up and rugby.

Yup, just need to let it blow over. The outrage mob will move on before long and it will be a distant memory. Just gotta stop fanning the flames.

Also, there is not a single religious person of any faith that takes all of their holy books at face value, namely because their holy books are full of contradictions.

So he's choosing to hate the gays then!

[Damo]

@nepia said in Aussie Rugby in general:

@no-quarter said in Aussie Rugby in general:

@nta said in Aussie Rugby in general:

Behold the TRUTH according to the word of the LORD as handed down in the BIBLE:

Leviticus 11:9-12 King James Version (KJV)
9 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

So does Israel like him a bit of crustacean?

Yes, the bible is ridiculous. But if he wants to believe in it, then he has to take the whole lot at face value.

I think it has been blown out of proportion at this point. Everyone might just do better to shut up and rugby.

Yup, just need to let it blow over. The outrage mob will move on before long and it will be a distant memory. Just gotta stop fanning the flames.

Also, there is not a single religious person of any faith that takes all of their holy books at face value, namely because their holy books are full of contradictions.

So he's choosing to hate the gays then!

It's a bit more nuanced than that. Paul of Tarsus' theology was that the kosher and other rules of the old testament don't apply to Christians anymore, so they don't need to apply them. However there is arguably reference to homosexuality as sinful in the new testament as well. Therefore he would say he is justified in his position on both gays and shellfish (and tattoos).

More to the point, I suspect Israel pays more attention to what his pastors tell than what is actually in the bible. It's undeniable that a lot of modern day churches have a problem with homosexuality, so all he's doing is reflecting that position.

Note that I am an atheist, so am not defending folou, just trying to put his position in context.

[Nepia]

@damo I thought the wink showed I wasn't being serious ... but that was a good post!

[barbarian]

@damo said in Aussie Rugby in general:

More to the point, I suspect Israel pays more attention to what his pastors tell than what is actually in the bible. It's undeniable that a lot of modern day churches have a problem with homosexuality, so all he's doing is reflecting that position.

At least Israel quoted a few New Testament verses that back his position pretty clearly.

[Stargazer]

@barbarian said in Aussie Rugby in general:

@virgil said in Aussie Rugby in general:

Or they just keep their out of touch opinions to themselves?

Given the number of Polynesian players in Aussie rugby (and Kiwi rugby for that matter), I think you'd be surprised how many people agree with Izzy. He's had some support from current players on social media.

It's a real risk for the ARU, because if they are perceived to be anti-Christian then there could be big consequences for the retention of Islander players at all levels.

As Nick would know, while they can sometimes be hard to deal with (organisationally) you can't deny how important those communities are to the grassroots of the game.

That's assuming they all belong to the same church, read the same version of the bible, have had the same upbringing and, therefore, believe in the same interpretation of the scriptures. This quote is from Digby Ioane (published in the Daily Telegraph), who doesn't agree with Folau:

I don't care what people say, the God i grew up with loves everyone, no matter who you are. He made you the way you are with one mission only: LOVE. Don't let anyone tell you you are not worth it, believe me, you are worth [it] to God.

What bothers me most about Folau's public expressions is not the content of them (although I strongly disagree with him), but the impact they may have on young gay - particularly, Polynesion - persons, who are still struggling with their sexuality. Whatever you think of MP Louisa Wall, I think she hits the nail on the head here:

Speaking to 1 NEWS today, Wall made it clear that Folau's comments should not be taken lightly, adding that they are dangerous given the fullback's stature within Australian sport.

"He doesn't really realise that what he's said literally means to a gay person that there's something wrong with you, and you should suffer for the rest of your life unless you repent," she said.

"He needs to reflect on his role as a public figure, and what he says and how it influences, particularly young people.

"I'm sure he'd be distressed to know his comments can kill, and they kill because young people feel despair because (they feel) there's something wrong with them, and they should take their own lives.

Also, I don't think his homophobic tweets/article qualifies as hate speech, and he legally has the right to say them (unless his contract says otherwise), but he may need to be reminded that sometimes it's better not to say things publically because they may actually harm others (vulnerable people who look up to him and believe what he says as the truth). I wonder whether such things are discussed when new players get media training?

[Stargazer]

@barbarian For each quote, there is another translation or interpretation.

[Bones]

@stargazer Hang on, can't that just be twisted so that what he's said literally means to a gay person that their religion is a bunch of bollocks?

[KiwiMurph]

https://www.rugby.com.au/news/2018/04/17/super-rugby-waratahs-folau-gibson

Rugby AU CEO Raelene Castle, who met with NSW Rugby CEO Andrew Hore and Folau over the issue last week, said they weren't going to punish Folau over any of his comments.

“In his article, Israel clearly articulated his religious beliefs and why his faith is important to him and has provided context behind his social media comment," Castle said in a statement.

“In his own words, Israel said that he did not intend to upset people intentionally or bring hurt to the game. We accept Israel’s position.

“Rugby Australia will use this experience as an opportunity to remind all employees of their obligation to use social media in a respectful way."

[Chris B.]

@mariner4life said in Aussie Rugby in general:

@nta said in Aussie Rugby in general:

Behold the TRUTH according to the word of the LORD as handed down in the BIBLE:

Leviticus 11:9-12 King James Version (KJV)
9 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

So does Israel like him a bit of crustacean?

Yes, the bible is ridiculous. But if he wants to believe in it, then he has to take the whole lot at face value.

I think it has been blown out of proportion at this point. Everyone might just do better to shut up and rugby.

If Izzy thinks i am giving up mudcrab, prawns, and moreton bay bugs, he is so very very much mistaken

#chillicrab4life

You're gwanna burn, son - in the ETERNAL FIRES of HELL.

That passage from Leviticus has got you too. Greedy bastard - gonna burn.

And it's no use telling God it was just a couple of quiet beers - it's the toaster for you, drunkard!

Interestingly, I re-watched that Louis Theroux documentary on the nutjobs from Westboro Baptist Church the other night. They were very big on the idea that it is a "Loving Act" to stand outside soldiers' funerals with their placards.

And that the Bible must be taken literally - and everyone except them is gonna burn - because you can't pick and choose about what's in there.

[No Quarter]

@Chris-B the dangers of religious (and political ideas). Even the Jihadi terrorists think what they are doing is moral.

[MajorPom]

@bones said in Aussie Rugby in general:

So is it not just me that for some odd reason get's MR and DM confused?

WTF? I believe dogmeat is quite well respected though ...

[Damo]

@bones said in Aussie Rugby in general:

@stargazer Hang on, can't that just be twisted so that what he's said literally means to a gay person that their religion is a bunch of bollocks?

I think this would be a natural reaction to a mature confident person who was relaxed about their sexuality, particularly if they were raised in a secular or semi-secular household.

However what we're really concerned about is someone who is young, impressionable, confused about their sexual attractions and comes from a religious family. That person might well view Folou's comments as implying that there is something wrong with them as a person. The last thing we need is for people going through the toughest period of their lives thinking that they are at fault for something they cannot control and did not ask for.

I am very prepared to believe that comments like we've seen from Folou might have a very harmful effect on such people. Folou can believe and say whatever the hell he likes, but let's not pretend there are no consequences to it.

[NTA]

@kiwimurph said in Aussie Rugby in general:

https://www.rugby.com.au/news/2018/04/17/super-rugby-waratahs-folau-gibson

Rugby AU CEO Raelene Castle, who met with NSW Rugby CEO Andrew Hore and Folau over the issue last week, said they weren't going to punish Folau over any of his comments.

“In his article, Israel clearly articulated his religious beliefs and why his faith is important to him and has provided context behind his social media comment," Castle said in a statement.

“In his own words, Israel said that he did not intend to upset people intentionally or bring hurt to the game. We accept Israel’s position.

“Rugby Australia will use this experience as an opportunity to remind all employees of their obligation to use social media in a respectful way."

i.e. Nothing To See Here, let's all get back to the rugby, hmm?

[Stargazer]

This article from Sumo Stevenson has a point:

‘Between a Stone Tablet and a hard place’