The Semenya Rule
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Semenya Rule:
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Semenya Rule:
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@No-Quarter I did read the article. It’s s fairly one sided piece which I’m sure will influence many. I’m not strong enough in this subject to say it’s 100 pct wrong or right.
I just take the view that every single athlete has their own advantages and disadvantages. And Semenyas advantage isn’t strong enough thst when it’s combined with 35 years of sports science research, it can overcome a doping programme.
It’s a good discussion to have tho, and I’m not going to criticize others for holding the opposite view.
So because she can't beat insane records set by drugged athletes nearly 40 years ago, her advantage isn't that great? Have you seen pictures of the women who set those records? They're freaks of scientific manipulation.
35 years of sport science. I think the 2018 all blacks would beat the 1983 by a ton
I'm sorry, but that is the most absurd comparison.
Why apologies? Because it doesn’t conform to the Semenya is a man train of thought?
I am comparing 35 years of sports science to performance enhancement from drugs.
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Semenya Rule:
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Semenya Rule:
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@No-Quarter I did read the article. It’s s fairly one sided piece which I’m sure will influence many. I’m not strong enough in this subject to say it’s 100 pct wrong or right.
I just take the view that every single athlete has their own advantages and disadvantages. And Semenyas advantage isn’t strong enough thst when it’s combined with 35 years of sports science research, it can overcome a doping programme.
It’s a good discussion to have tho, and I’m not going to criticize others for holding the opposite view.
So because she can't beat insane records set by drugged athletes nearly 40 years ago, her advantage isn't that great? Have you seen pictures of the women who set those records? They're freaks of scientific manipulation.
35 years of sport science. I think the 2018 all blacks would beat the 1983 by a ton
I'm sorry, but that is the most absurd comparison.
Why apologies? Because it doesn’t conform to the Semenya is a man train of thought?
I am comparing 35 years of sports science to performance enhancement from drugs.
Have a read of articles like this
Even a doped up Jones wasn’t able to beat FloJos doped up times, because making it undetectable made it less potent.
Better training and nutrition is not going to turn women into men, which is effectively what happened under the old doping regime. To the extent some even developed male pattern baldness.
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@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Semenya Rule:
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Semenya Rule:
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@No-Quarter I did read the article. It’s s fairly one sided piece which I’m sure will influence many. I’m not strong enough in this subject to say it’s 100 pct wrong or right.
I just take the view that every single athlete has their own advantages and disadvantages. And Semenyas advantage isn’t strong enough thst when it’s combined with 35 years of sports science research, it can overcome a doping programme.
It’s a good discussion to have tho, and I’m not going to criticize others for holding the opposite view.
So because she can't beat insane records set by drugged athletes nearly 40 years ago, her advantage isn't that great? Have you seen pictures of the women who set those records? They're freaks of scientific manipulation.
35 years of sport science. I think the 2018 all blacks would beat the 1983 by a ton
I'm sorry, but that is the most absurd comparison.
Why apologies? Because it doesn’t conform to the Semenya is a man train of thought?
I am comparing 35 years of sports science to performance enhancement from drugs.
Have a read of articles like this
Even a doped up Jones wasn’t able to beat FloJos doped up times, because making it undetectable made it less potent.
Better training and nutrition is not going to turn women into men, which is effectively what happened under the old doping regime. To the extent some even developed male pattern baldness.
@Kirwan said in The Semenya Rule:
Better training and nutrition is not going to turn women into men, which is effectively what happened under the old doping regime. To the extent some even developed male pattern baldness.
Yeah it’s insane what happened back then - no disagreement.
However if people are Adamant her natural masculinity is THAT much of an advantage (and to be clear, I don’t dispute that it is one), then in my view it’s reasonable to expect records from the doping era to be beaten. As not only does she enjoy the advantage they had, she also enjoys 35 years of science.
The thing I find most absurd is the expectation that she should run in an open division. But she wouldn’t even be close to competitive. Because she’s a woman!
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Semenya Rule:
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Semenya Rule:
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@No-Quarter I did read the article. It’s s fairly one sided piece which I’m sure will influence many. I’m not strong enough in this subject to say it’s 100 pct wrong or right.
I just take the view that every single athlete has their own advantages and disadvantages. And Semenyas advantage isn’t strong enough thst when it’s combined with 35 years of sports science research, it can overcome a doping programme.
It’s a good discussion to have tho, and I’m not going to criticize others for holding the opposite view.
So because she can't beat insane records set by drugged athletes nearly 40 years ago, her advantage isn't that great? Have you seen pictures of the women who set those records? They're freaks of scientific manipulation.
35 years of sport science. I think the 2018 all blacks would beat the 1983 by a ton
I'm sorry, but that is the most absurd comparison.
Why apologies? Because it doesn’t conform to the Semenya is a man train of thought?
I am comparing 35 years of sports science to performance enhancement from drugs.
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Semenya Rule:
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Semenya Rule:
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@No-Quarter I did read the article. It’s s fairly one sided piece which I’m sure will influence many. I’m not strong enough in this subject to say it’s 100 pct wrong or right.
I just take the view that every single athlete has their own advantages and disadvantages. And Semenyas advantage isn’t strong enough thst when it’s combined with 35 years of sports science research, it can overcome a doping programme.
It’s a good discussion to have tho, and I’m not going to criticize others for holding the opposite view.
So because she can't beat insane records set by drugged athletes nearly 40 years ago, her advantage isn't that great? Have you seen pictures of the women who set those records? They're freaks of scientific manipulation.
35 years of sport science. I think the 2018 all blacks would beat the 1983 by a ton
I'm sorry, but that is the most absurd comparison.
Why apologies? Because it doesn’t conform to the Semenya is a man train of thought?
I am comparing 35 years of sports science to performance enhancement from drugs.
Because it makes no sense. Those records have stood for nearly 40 years and are evidence that despite the massive advances in sports science, the Eastern Bloc doping programs gave their athletes monumental advantages over their competitors. The fact that Semenya hasn't broken them (I believe she got within 1 second) doesn't mean she doesn't have an unfair advantage.
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@jegga said in The Semenya Rule:
If there are other women with very similar biology competing does anyone have any theories as to why Semenya is the only one that’s getting all the attention?
If she’s the only one winning doesn’t that show that it’s not really important ... ?
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@jegga said in The Semenya Rule:
If there are other women with very similar biology competing does anyone have any theories as to why Semenya is the only one that’s getting all the attention?
If she’s the only one winning doesn’t that show that it’s not really important ... ?
1, 2, 3 at the Olympics being DSD suggests there is an an issue.
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@Kirwan said in The Semenya Rule:
Better training and nutrition is not going to turn women into men, which is effectively what happened under the old doping regime. To the extent some even developed male pattern baldness.
Yeah it’s insane what happened back then - no disagreement.
However if people are Adamant her natural masculinity is THAT much of an advantage (and to be clear, I don’t dispute that it is one), then in my view it’s reasonable to expect records from the doping era to be beaten. As not only does she enjoy the advantage they had, she also enjoys 35 years of science.
The thing I find most absurd is the expectation that she should run in an open division. But she wouldn’t even be close to competitive. Because she’s a woman!
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@Kirwan said in The Semenya Rule:
Better training and nutrition is not going to turn women into men, which is effectively what happened under the old doping regime. To the extent some even developed male pattern baldness.
Yeah it’s insane what happened back then - no disagreement.
However if people are Adamant her natural masculinity is THAT much of an advantage (and to be clear, I don’t dispute that it is one), then in my view it’s reasonable to expect records from the doping era to be beaten. As not only does she enjoy the advantage they had, she also enjoys 35 years of science.
The thing I find most absurd is the expectation that she should run in an open division. But she wouldn’t even be close to competitive. Because she’s a woman!
Unfortunately she isn't.
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@Kirwan said in The Semenya Rule:
Better training and nutrition is not going to turn women into men, which is effectively what happened under the old doping regime. To the extent some even developed male pattern baldness.
Yeah it’s insane what happened back then - no disagreement.
However if people are Adamant her natural masculinity is THAT much of an advantage (and to be clear, I don’t dispute that it is one), then in my view it’s reasonable to expect records from the doping era to be beaten. As not only does she enjoy the advantage they had, she also enjoys 35 years of science.
The thing I find most absurd is the expectation that she should run in an open division. But she wouldn’t even be close to competitive. Because she’s a woman!
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
The thing I find most absurd is the expectation that she should run in an open division. But she wouldn’t even be close to competitive. Because she’s a woman!
99.99% of men aren't close to competitive at that level either, so I'm not sure that proves anything.
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@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@jegga said in The Semenya Rule:
If there are other women with very similar biology competing does anyone have any theories as to why Semenya is the only one that’s getting all the attention?
If she’s the only one winning doesn’t that show that it’s not really important ... ?
1, 2, 3 at the Olympics being DSD suggests there is an an issue.
@booboo said in The Semenya Rule:
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@jegga said in The Semenya Rule:
If there are other women with very similar biology competing does anyone have any theories as to why Semenya is the only one that’s getting all the attention?
If she’s the only one winning doesn’t that show that it’s not really important ... ?
1, 2, 3 at the Olympics being DSD suggests there is an an issue.
Across all events? If so, I’ll concede I’m completely wrong
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Natural athletes have also beaten athletes on the juice. Does that then mean that PEDs don't provide much of an unfair advantage and should therefore be legal?
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@jegga said in The Semenya Rule:
If there are other women with very similar biology competing does anyone have any theories as to why Semenya is the only one that’s getting all the attention?
If she’s the only one winning doesn’t that show that it’s not really important ... ?
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@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
The thing I find most absurd is the expectation that she should run in an open division. But she wouldn’t even be close to competitive. Because she’s a woman!
99.99% of men aren't close to competitive at that level either, so I'm not sure that proves anything.
@photo-fox said in The Semenya Rule:
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
The thing I find most absurd is the expectation that she should run in an open division. But she wouldn’t even be close to competitive. Because she’s a woman!
99.99% of men aren't close to competitive at that level either, so I'm not sure that proves anything.
They aren’t close to competitive woman’s times either. So there is no point there. Elite athletes are all something different
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@Kirwan said in The Semenya Rule:
Better training and nutrition is not going to turn women into men, which is effectively what happened under the old doping regime. To the extent some even developed male pattern baldness.
Yeah it’s insane what happened back then - no disagreement.
However if people are Adamant her natural masculinity is THAT much of an advantage (and to be clear, I don’t dispute that it is one), then in my view it’s reasonable to expect records from the doping era to be beaten. As not only does she enjoy the advantage they had, she also enjoys 35 years of science.
The thing I find most absurd is the expectation that she should run in an open division. But she wouldn’t even be close to competitive. Because she’s a woman!
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@Kirwan said in The Semenya Rule:
Better training and nutrition is not going to turn women into men, which is effectively what happened under the old doping regime. To the extent some even developed male pattern baldness.
Yeah it’s insane what happened back then - no disagreement.
However if people are Adamant her natural masculinity is THAT much of an advantage (and to be clear, I don’t dispute that it is one), then in my view it’s reasonable to expect records from the doping era to be beaten. As not only does she enjoy the advantage they had, she also enjoys 35 years of science.
She doesn't enjoy the advantage they had. She has a natural advantage over other women. Eastern-bloc female athletes were fed a diet of anabolic steroids that utterly dwarfs Semenya's natural generation.
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@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
Fair enough, can see how you form your view.
Me, however, as a staunch critic of gender politics, I have to be consistent. In my view You are either physically a bloke or a woman. She’s a woman so I think it’s fine to let her race.
She's a woman with the chromosones of a man. For a lot of us, that makes her a man biologically. Indeed that would be how I start a definition of male.
Whether we and she considers herself to be male socially is a very different question.
@Chester-Draws said in The Semenya Rule:
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
Fair enough, can see how you form your view.
Me, however, as a staunch critic of gender politics, I have to be consistent. In my view You are either physically a bloke or a woman. She’s a woman so I think it’s fine to let her race.
She's a woman with the chromosones of a man. For a lot of us, that makes her a man biologically. Indeed that would be how I start a definition of male.
Whether we and she considers herself to be male socially is a very different question.
Not having a penis is a pretty reasonable argument for being a woman (assuming binary options).
Having gynecomastia doesn't make you a female.
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@Chester-Draws said in The Semenya Rule:
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
Fair enough, can see how you form your view.
Me, however, as a staunch critic of gender politics, I have to be consistent. In my view You are either physically a bloke or a woman. She’s a woman so I think it’s fine to let her race.
She's a woman with the chromosones of a man. For a lot of us, that makes her a man biologically. Indeed that would be how I start a definition of male.
Whether we and she considers herself to be male socially is a very different question.
Not having a penis is a pretty reasonable argument for being a woman (assuming binary options).
Having gynecomastia doesn't make you a female.
@rotated said in The Semenya Rule:
Not having a penis is a pretty reasonable argument for being a woman (assuming binary options).
Having testes (albeit internal and what is stated above is true) is a pretty reasonable argument for being a man (assuming binary options).
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@Chester-Draws said in The Semenya Rule:
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
Fair enough, can see how you form your view.
Me, however, as a staunch critic of gender politics, I have to be consistent. In my view You are either physically a bloke or a woman. She’s a woman so I think it’s fine to let her race.
She's a woman with the chromosones of a man. For a lot of us, that makes her a man biologically. Indeed that would be how I start a definition of male.
Whether we and she considers herself to be male socially is a very different question.
Not having a penis is a pretty reasonable argument for being a woman (assuming binary options).
Having gynecomastia doesn't make you a female.
@rotated said in The Semenya Rule:
Not having a penis is a pretty reasonable argument for being a woman (assuming binary options).
You may be assuming binary options, but that's a poor assumption other than socially, and even that in the past. But we're arguing biology here and binary just doesn't come in to it.
(In any case, XY chromosone is a far better way, assuming you have to determine binary, than presence of a penis.)
I think what most people want is open and specifically women's events. Not a male/female split. That is because a male/female split advantages greatly a very small amount of people, whereas only XX female allows a much greater number to compete.
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@photo-fox said in The Semenya Rule:
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
The thing I find most absurd is the expectation that she should run in an open division. But she wouldn’t even be close to competitive. Because she’s a woman!
99.99% of men aren't close to competitive at that level either, so I'm not sure that proves anything.
They aren’t close to competitive woman’s times either. So there is no point there. Elite athletes are all something different
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@photo-fox said in The Semenya Rule:
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
The thing I find most absurd is the expectation that she should run in an open division. But she wouldn’t even be close to competitive. Because she’s a woman!
99.99% of men aren't close to competitive at that level either, so I'm not sure that proves anything.
They aren’t close to competitive woman’s times either. So there is no point there. Elite athletes are all something different
We're talking about the top level athletes though. The top men are significantly better than the top women. If Semenya can't compete with the top men then she isn't a top level athlete.
Another example is our own Laurel Hubbard who despite lowering her testosterone still enjoys significant advantages over women. As a fully fledged male with normal levels of testosterone she was nowhere near the top level, not even the same ballpark. But as a woman with reduced testosterone she is right up there.
Fact is Semenya went through puberty with male levels of testosterone, which means she benefits from a range of advantages including: increased heart size, increased lung size/capacity, increased muscle density, increased bone density etc etc. The list goes on. Testosterone + puberty is what separates males from females in most sports.
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Clearly the only reasonable option is to do away with female and male only sporting divisions. Gender is just a social construct anyway (well it's an offence anyway to say different on social media or in many work places)
One 'open' division inclusive to all, I'm sure women athletes will start to top the tables on their own once they break loose of the oppression shackles of the patriarchy.You'd also clear the record books of the 80's eastern block drug records so that's a bonus.
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If I went nuts on the PEDs, I'd still get my arse kicked by the elite athletes. So because it didn't allow me to dominate the sport, does that mean I then wasn't cheating or didn't have an unfair advantage? That seems to be the argument used for Semenya here. She isn't dominating by that much therefore she can't have much of an unfair advantage. Well where would she be without the T and the other benefits natural females don't have?
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@rotated said in The Semenya Rule:
Not having a penis is a pretty reasonable argument for being a woman (assuming binary options).
You may be assuming binary options, but that's a poor assumption other than socially, and even that in the past. But we're arguing biology here and binary just doesn't come in to it.
(In any case, XY chromosone is a far better way, assuming you have to determine binary, than presence of a penis.)
I think what most people want is open and specifically women's events. Not a male/female split. That is because a male/female split advantages greatly a very small amount of people, whereas only XX female allows a much greater number to compete.
@Chester-Draws said in The Semenya Rule:
@rotated said in The Semenya Rule:
Not having a penis is a pretty reasonable argument for being a woman (assuming binary options).
You may be assuming binary options, but that's a poor assumption other than socially, and even that in the past. But we're arguing biology here and binary just doesn't come in to it.
I assume binary because the Olympics has two streams of Olympic events affectionately named mens and womens. While I will waste my keystrokes on potential proposals to reshape nationality law for IRB tournaments I won't on a pie in the sky notion where the Olympics becomes womens vs opens or mens vs others.
Again I don't really have a dog in the fight on this one, but I disagree with both those that say she is clearly a man or a woman for the purposes of sport, however there is no doubting whether Caster has a chromosonal advantage.
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@rotated said in The Semenya Rule:
Not having a penis is a pretty reasonable argument for being a woman (assuming binary options).
Having testes (albeit internal and what is stated above is true) is a pretty reasonable argument for being a man (assuming binary options).
@Snowy said in The Semenya Rule:
@rotated said in The Semenya Rule:
Not having a penis is a pretty reasonable argument for being a woman (assuming binary options).
Having testes (albeit internal and what is stated above is true) is a pretty reasonable argument for being a man (assuming binary options).
100% agree. I guess that was my penetrating glimpse into the obvious of why this is a contentious issue.
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@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@Kirwan said in The Semenya Rule:
Better training and nutrition is not going to turn women into men, which is effectively what happened under the old doping regime. To the extent some even developed male pattern baldness.
Yeah it’s insane what happened back then - no disagreement.
However if people are Adamant her natural masculinity is THAT much of an advantage (and to be clear, I don’t dispute that it is one), then in my view it’s reasonable to expect records from the doping era to be beaten. As not only does she enjoy the advantage they had, she also enjoys 35 years of science.
She doesn't enjoy the advantage they had. She has a natural advantage over other women. Eastern-bloc female athletes were fed a diet of anabolic steroids that utterly dwarfs Semenya's natural generation.
@antipodean said in The Semenya Rule:
She doesn't enjoy the advantage they had. She has a natural advantage over other women. Eastern-bloc female athletes were fed a diet of anabolic steroids that utterly dwarfs Semenya's natural generation.
How do you know this?
I'm the first to admit, that I don't know that it's wrong. However, logic shows me
- The mens world record is currently 1:40.91 ... in 1983 it was 1:41.73
- Research shows that the men enjoy a roughly 10-12% advantage (this is quoted in almost every article). Lets use the conservative 12% for this arguments sake.
- Hence in 1983, the womans world record should have been around 12.2 seconds higher = or 1:53.9 ... it was 1:53.3
- Or to use actual numbers, 11.6 seconds.
So lets compare since 2005, which is the point that most pundits agree that drug testing got to the level that we can safely assume all runners are clean. Let compare fastest times year by year and I'll make note of what times are CS:
So what we can we read into this ... well, I hate to say it, but it does seem like you can only read what you want to read. I.e - CS domination from 16-19 is at a considerably faster pace than 13-16. However it's only on par 2005 - 2008.
My aim was to show that CS pace is not naturally faster than other females ... which I think I have if I conveniently ignore 2013-2016. However, I will accept that many others will not accept this.
