All Blacks Squad for France
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@mimic Different type of players, different teams, different roles. Stats only tell a small part of the story. People attach way too much importance to them. Where's that article of/about Wayne Smith about stats ....
@stargazer said in All Blacks Squad for France:
@mimic Different type of players, different teams, different roles. Stats only tell a small part of the story. People attach way too much importance to them. Where's that article of/about Wayne Smith about stats ....
Shag alluded to this in discussing selections.
At 7 Cane is no 1, Savea offers bench impact/tactical variation and Todd is a first rate injury back up.
They are looking for a Kaino/Collins (Jerry) replacement. Squire has been groomed for this. My take is that Fifita and Whitelock (L) are not seen as being 'assertive' enough on D for the role. Frizzell is being auditioned for it, with Taufua also being given a shot.
The post RWC Read replacement has to be good on D but can be a more ranging role. Fifita has the athleticism for this, but for me needs to get a bit tighter.
Whitelock (L) is very secure on D, has excellent leadership skills and can play tight enough for the role. However, he is not sufficiently dynamic to take over from Read, so I see him very much as a stop gap measure.
Ioane (A) is somewhat of a scragger on D, but is trying to get more productively involved at ruck time, and provides great go forward off the scrum and is outstanding lurking wide out.
Come TRC, and assuming Read is back, I see Whitelock (L) dropping out, Fifita retained and one of Frizzell/Taufua jettisoned.
Ioane (A) will probably train with TRC squad, but needs an injury break or suddenly to develop maturity to be in the frame for EOYT.
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@pukunui said in All Blacks Squad for France:
I don't see why Taufua coukdn't be perfectly adequate 7 cover off the bench. He pretty much plays the same role as recent AB 7s which is high work rate. Tackle like crazy and do a bit of ball carrying and support work. If anything he is more suited to that role than 6 or 8.
One of the big problems we have in the loose forwards is that Squire seems to have been made out of the same material as Crotty.
You seem to be from the Eddie Jones school of rugby 'thinking'?!
@pakman said in All Blacks Squad for France:
@pukunui said in All Blacks Squad for France:
I don't see why Taufua coukdn't be perfectly adequate 7 cover off the bench. He pretty much plays the same role as recent AB 7s which is high work rate. Tackle like crazy and do a bit of ball carrying and support work. If anything he is more suited to that role than 6 or 8.
One of the big problems we have in the loose forwards is that Squire seems to have been made out of the same material as Crotty.
You seem to be from the Eddie Jones school of rugby 'thinking'?!
Haha wasn't it Eddie who first played George Smith and Phil Waugh in the same back row? Or was that someone else?
Jokes aside, tell me how Cane's and Taufua's games are so different. Other than Cane being better obviously.
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@pakman said in All Blacks Squad for France:
@pukunui said in All Blacks Squad for France:
I don't see why Taufua coukdn't be perfectly adequate 7 cover off the bench. He pretty much plays the same role as recent AB 7s which is high work rate. Tackle like crazy and do a bit of ball carrying and support work. If anything he is more suited to that role than 6 or 8.
One of the big problems we have in the loose forwards is that Squire seems to have been made out of the same material as Crotty.
You seem to be from the Eddie Jones school of rugby 'thinking'?!
Haha wasn't it Eddie who first played George Smith and Phil Waugh in the same back row? Or was that someone else?
Jokes aside, tell me how Cane's and Taufua's games are so different. Other than Cane being better obviously.
@pukunui I haven't watched Taufua closely enough to really comment, but if pressed I'd say that in D and taking the ball up they're quite similar, with Taufua having the edge on the later. In terms of ruck slowing/pilfering Cane seems to me very good, recognising that he chooses when to have a go. Haven't noticed that of Taufua, but I might be doing him a disservice.
What would you say?
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@bones said in All Blacks Squad for France:
Mounga aren't up to it
Did I miss that? I thought the prevailing fern wisdom (which I share) was that he was a significantly better 10 than DMac.
@tim said in All Blacks Squad for France:
@bones said in All Blacks Squad for France:
Mounga aren't up to it
Did I miss that? I thought the prevailing fern wisdom (which I share) was that he was a significantly better 10 than DMac.
Then they clearly haven't read this article from, who I can only assume is, DMac's dad:
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/evolution-damian-mckenzie
McKenzie at 22-years-old is already the most-rounded attacking 10 in New Zealand. His passing is superior to Barrett and his running game is more dangerous than Mo’unga.
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@tim said in All Blacks Squad for France:
@bones said in All Blacks Squad for France:
Mounga aren't up to it
Did I miss that? I thought the prevailing fern wisdom (which I share) was that he was a significantly better 10 than DMac.
Then they clearly haven't read this article from, who I can only assume is, DMac's dad:
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/evolution-damian-mckenzie
McKenzie at 22-years-old is already the most-rounded attacking 10 in New Zealand. His passing is superior to Barrett and his running game is more dangerous than Mo’unga.
@milk said in All Blacks Squad for France:
McKenzie at 22-years-old is already the most-rounded attacking 10 in New Zealand. His passing is superior to Barrett and his running game is more dangerous than Mo’unga.
And his mistakes are more spectacular than Quade Cooper's.
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@pakman said in All Blacks Squad for France:
@pukunui said in All Blacks Squad for France:
I don't see why Taufua coukdn't be perfectly adequate 7 cover off the bench. He pretty much plays the same role as recent AB 7s which is high work rate. Tackle like crazy and do a bit of ball carrying and support work. If anything he is more suited to that role than 6 or 8.
One of the big problems we have in the loose forwards is that Squire seems to have been made out of the same material as Crotty.
You seem to be from the Eddie Jones school of rugby 'thinking'?!
Haha wasn't it Eddie who first played George Smith and Phil Waugh in the same back row? Or was that someone else?
Jokes aside, tell me how Cane's and Taufua's games are so different. Other than Cane being better obviously.
@pukunui Cane and Taufua are hugely different players. Cane would probably the 2nd worst ball carrier in the squad after Franks. But with Kaino out he is the best defender. Cane has a bigger engine too.
Taufua is a pretty good ball carrier. Out wide and in close. Jury (for me) is still out in whether he will go missing in a big game as he is prone to do in super rugby.
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@tim said in All Blacks Squad for France:
@bones said in All Blacks Squad for France:
Mounga aren't up to it
Did I miss that? I thought the prevailing fern wisdom (which I share) was that he was a significantly better 10 than DMac.
Then they clearly haven't read this article from, who I can only assume is, DMac's dad:
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/evolution-damian-mckenzie
McKenzie at 22-years-old is already the most-rounded attacking 10 in New Zealand. His passing is superior to Barrett and his running game is more dangerous than Mo’unga.
@milk said in All Blacks Squad for France:
Then they clearly haven't read this article from, who I can only assume is, DMac's dad:
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/evolution-damian-mckenzie
McKenzie at 22-years-old is already the most-rounded attacking 10 in New Zealand. His passing is superior to Barrett and his running game is more dangerous than Mo’unga.
Crucial?
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Is it the weakest AB squad since 2004 ?
There is a lot of fringe players who do not seem to be of international calibre. Perry is struggling at SR level, Frizell is the third choice blindside flanker for the Highlanders, TTT, Mo'unga are largely untested, DMac has yet to have a good game at 1st Five, this season, Fifita has been very anonymous, Scott Barrett is lacking the necessary physique for an international lock while JTA has never propped at TH at the upper level. Moreover, L. Whitelock is just here to fill a gap in Read's absence, NMS does not have the pace of an international wing and Harris is a journeyman as is Ofa T. If the RWC was to be played toimorrow, I doubt this team could make the final. -
Is it the weakest AB squad since 2004 ?
There is a lot of fringe players who do not seem to be of international calibre. Perry is struggling at SR level, Frizell is the third choice blindside flanker for the Highlanders, TTT, Mo'unga are largely untested, DMac has yet to have a good game at 1st Five, this season, Fifita has been very anonymous, Scott Barrett is lacking the necessary physique for an international lock while JTA has never propped at TH at the upper level. Moreover, L. Whitelock is just here to fill a gap in Read's absence, NMS does not have the pace of an international wing and Harris is a journeyman as is Ofa T. If the RWC was to be played toimorrow, I doubt this team could make the final.@cgrant said in All Blacks Squad for France:
Is it the weakest AB squad since 2004 ?
2009 June team was worse (at the time = picks like Read, Nonu/Smith combo, Jane and Thorn look better now).
The new caps were Ross, Latimer, Masaga, G Whitelock, Bryn Evans, Aled De Malmanche, Crockett and eventually Owen Franks.
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Is it the weakest AB squad since 2004 ?
There is a lot of fringe players who do not seem to be of international calibre. Perry is struggling at SR level, Frizell is the third choice blindside flanker for the Highlanders, TTT, Mo'unga are largely untested, DMac has yet to have a good game at 1st Five, this season, Fifita has been very anonymous, Scott Barrett is lacking the necessary physique for an international lock while JTA has never propped at TH at the upper level. Moreover, L. Whitelock is just here to fill a gap in Read's absence, NMS does not have the pace of an international wing and Harris is a journeyman as is Ofa T. If the RWC was to be played toimorrow, I doubt this team could make the final.@cgrant said in All Blacks Squad for France:
Is it the weakest AB squad since 2004 ?
Almost certainly - and it's making the selectors work bloody hard. The loss of the big 5 after the 2015 (Woodcock, Mealamu, McCaw, Nonu, Smith) was covered by Coles, Whitelock, Kaino, Read, Smith and Smith over the last couple of seasons. now Coles and Read are out, throw in a few injuries, and suddently the depth is really exposed.
Last year will have been good for us looking at the future, forcing us to blood new players. However, this team will be tasty this year - no locked in centres, little depth in locks, and no idea about the blind/8 combos.
This is our proper rebuild, right now. Need to get this right to be competitive at the 2019RWC. I think we can do it, but at the top level there isn't much between the top sides, and if we're slightly off our mental game it's over rover.
Going to be a bloody good series against France, and looking fowrard to the RWC immensely.
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Is this the first squad in since the naming if the 2011 WC squad that we can actually have some conversation and debate over?
Squad selections has been a predictable borefest for 7 years and now they biff this 'fern-like' Hand Grenade into the mix.
No Akira! How dare they blindside us with this doosy!!
And my humilator moment is that when I read the squad last night, I had never even heard of Frizzel!
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On Akira's selection, I'm wondering whether they've had one of those strange "Group Think" committee discussions, where someone has a downer on him and they eventually talk themselves around to a point where, beyond logic, they're not going to pick him.
I wonder if you got Hansen in a closed room with a few expert interrogators and asked him to defend Frizzell over Akira whether he could do a convincing job.
Frankly, there would have to be something beyond the playing field IMO - even if it's just that they think he needs a rest.
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@cgrant said in All Blacks Squad for France:
Is it the weakest AB squad since 2004 ?
Almost certainly - and it's making the selectors work bloody hard. The loss of the big 5 after the 2015 (Woodcock, Mealamu, McCaw, Nonu, Smith) was covered by Coles, Whitelock, Kaino, Read, Smith and Smith over the last couple of seasons. now Coles and Read are out, throw in a few injuries, and suddently the depth is really exposed.
Last year will have been good for us looking at the future, forcing us to blood new players. However, this team will be tasty this year - no locked in centres, little depth in locks, and no idea about the blind/8 combos.
This is our proper rebuild, right now. Need to get this right to be competitive at the 2019RWC. I think we can do it, but at the top level there isn't much between the top sides, and if we're slightly off our mental game it's over rover.
Going to be a bloody good series against France, and looking fowrard to the RWC immensely.
@nzzp I will say that it's a good thing they looked beyond Kaino at the EoYT, so that's a head start. The problem is replacing Read who is a shadow of his PoTY version. I'll be astonished if following back surgery he attains those heights again.
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@nzzp I will say that it's a good thing they looked beyond Kaino at the EoYT, so that's a head start. The problem is replacing Read who is a shadow of his PoTY version. I'll be astonished if following back surgery he attains those heights again.
@antipodean said in All Blacks Squad for France:
@nzzp I will say that it's a good thing they looked beyond Kaino at the EoYT, so that's a head start. The problem is replacing Read who is a shadow of his PoTY version. I'll be astonished if following back surgery he attains those heights again.
One more reason why I don't get no Akira.
He's pretty clearly the young 8 with most potential. Even Squire is already 27, so will be 28 at the next WC and won't be around in 2023.
@Chris-B could be right in that they may just want him to have a rest (which I'd be happy about if that is true, because he'll get the benefit of the camp and a rest) but my feeling is that there is a no dickheads, training, or work-rate problem that he has not addressed to their happiness.
My guess is that they'll hold off on him until he shows enough change there, then he'll get plenty of time. I'm wondering if that is going to happen before the WC though. Now seems the time to get him involved, if you think he is part of that campaign.
I'd love to see Read back and at his best, but few have come back to even play at a high level after that type of surgery... for that reason alone, we should be stacking up 8s.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks Squad for France:
@nzzp I will say that it's a good thing they looked beyond Kaino at the EoYT, so that's a head start. The problem is replacing Read who is a shadow of his PoTY version. I'll be astonished if following back surgery he attains those heights again.
One more reason why I don't get no Akira.
He's pretty clearly the young 8 with most potential. Even Squire is already 27, so will be 28 at the next WC and won't be around in 2023.
@Chris-B could be right in that they may just want him to have a rest (which I'd be happy about if that is true, because he'll get the benefit of the camp and a rest) but my feeling is that there is a no dickheads, training, or work-rate problem that he has not addressed to their happiness.
My guess is that they'll hold off on him until he shows enough change there, then he'll get plenty of time. I'm wondering if that is going to happen before the WC though. Now seems the time to get him involved, if you think he is part of that campaign.
I'd love to see Read back and at his best, but few have come back to even play at a high level after that type of surgery... for that reason alone, we should be stacking up 8s.
@gt12 I saw a snippet of Rieko's interview at the squad announcement. He was asked if it was bitter sweet and said Akira was happy to be there, knew what he had to work on and once he got some planning around that, he'd be fine.
So it seems there definitely is something missing and publicly at least, his younger brother agrees.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks Squad for France:
@nzzp I will say that it's a good thing they looked beyond Kaino at the EoYT, so that's a head start. The problem is replacing Read who is a shadow of his PoTY version. I'll be astonished if following back surgery he attains those heights again.
One more reason why I don't get no Akira.
He's pretty clearly the young 8 with most potential. Even Squire is already 27, so will be 28 at the next WC and won't be around in 2023.
@Chris-B could be right in that they may just want him to have a rest (which I'd be happy about if that is true, because he'll get the benefit of the camp and a rest) but my feeling is that there is a no dickheads, training, or work-rate problem that he has not addressed to their happiness.
My guess is that they'll hold off on him until he shows enough change there, then he'll get plenty of time. I'm wondering if that is going to happen before the WC though. Now seems the time to get him involved, if you think he is part of that campaign.
I'd love to see Read back and at his best, but few have come back to even play at a high level after that type of surgery... for that reason alone, we should be stacking up 8s.
@gt12 If it was the no dickheads rule, you'd think they wouldn't have him in the camp - unless the non-selection is sending him a pointed message to sharpen up, while they still want to have him in their plans.
I guess there's a fair amount of utility among the loosies selected - with Whitelock, Taufua and Squire all able to play both 6 and 8, but I'm tending to think they'll use Whitelock and Taufua as their No. 8s (and Ardie) - in which case I can see them being chosen over Akira. And Squire and Fifita were already ahead in the pecking order at six.
It's Frizzell over Akira that I find inexplicable. I guess Shannon can play lock at a pinch (I'm pretty sure he's started there for the Mako), but it's a fucking big stretch that he could do so in international rugby.
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On Akira's selection, I'm wondering whether they've had one of those strange "Group Think" committee discussions, where someone has a downer on him and they eventually talk themselves around to a point where, beyond logic, they're not going to pick him.
I wonder if you got Hansen in a closed room with a few expert interrogators and asked him to defend Frizzell over Akira whether he could do a convincing job.
Frankly, there would have to be something beyond the playing field IMO - even if it's just that they think he needs a rest.
@chris-b said in All Blacks Squad for France:
On Akira's selection, I'm wondering whether they've had one of those strange "Group Think" committee discussions, where someone has a downer on him and they eventually talk themselves around to a point where, beyond logic, they're not going to pick him.
I wonder if you got Hansen in a closed room with a few expert interrogators and asked him to defend Frizzell over Akira whether he could do a convincing job.
Frankly, there would have to be something beyond the playing field IMO - even if it's just that they think he needs a rest.
Chris or any other NZ based ferners, did the guys on Sky ask Shag about the rationale behind Frizzell's selection? I have only listened to Devlin interviewing Shag and Foster and he was more keen to ask them about the silly royal wedding than any meaningful questions relating to the squad.
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@gt12 If it was the no dickheads rule, you'd think they wouldn't have him in the camp - unless the non-selection is sending him a pointed message to sharpen up, while they still want to have him in their plans.
I guess there's a fair amount of utility among the loosies selected - with Whitelock, Taufua and Squire all able to play both 6 and 8, but I'm tending to think they'll use Whitelock and Taufua as their No. 8s (and Ardie) - in which case I can see them being chosen over Akira. And Squire and Fifita were already ahead in the pecking order at six.
It's Frizzell over Akira that I find inexplicable. I guess Shannon can play lock at a pinch (I'm pretty sure he's started there for the Mako), but it's a fucking big stretch that he could do so in international rugby.
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@chris-b
I believe Frizzell to be a selection that is a warning to Fifita, TBH.
I don’t see Akira as the same player as a Kaino, I see him as a ball playing 8.
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I'm reading that Shannon Frizell is Welsh-qualified through his dad, as his brother Tyson played League for Wales.
Tipped as a New Zealand Test star in the making, the physical back-rower has already made an impression in a handful of starts for the Highlanders in Super Rugby after staring for Ta$man at provincial level.
Yet, he is also eligible to play for Tonga, his country of birth, and Wales, through his dad Andrew - who hails from Swansea.
The younger brother of Rugby League World Cup winner Tyson, who played for Wales before switching allegiances to Australia, Shannon has already made a mark on the national stage in New Zealand.
But I'm also reading that Tyson and Shannon Frizell are adopted/step brothers.
So something doesn't compute .....
NRL star Tyson Frizell has revealed how immigration laws stopped him from growing up with his younger brother.
That younger sibling is Highlanders flanker Shannon Frizell.
Tyson Frizell, 26, grew up in Australia with his parents but Shannon, 24, spent his childhood in Tonga.
Immigration laws prevented Shannon from settling in Australia with his adopted family.
"It is something that is pretty common in Tongan culture, to adopt a kid from another family, but he wasn't able to come over and live with us," Tyson Frizell told NRL.com.
I'd be shocked, shocked, that WoL would bang out an un-researched story .....
