Exodus
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@mariner4life said in Exodus:
i know you weird Hawkes Bay fluffybunnies only care about the NPC, but that doesn't sound like a great fucking solution to me.
The NPC used to be this great comp where guys who played in your province played for your province against other provinces, and you cared! Now? It's just like any other pro comp in the world, except its not professional.
The wait and glee for NPC signings on here makes me sick.
There is a world of difference between a guy not playing club rugby in your province because he's busy playing Super rugby, and a guy not playing club rugby in your province because he's playing in America.
Oh, yay for the players, they can make a "living" playing code. We're on the slippery slope cricket is already sliding down with the various T20 comps around the world.
What's your solution? How do we retain those players for club rugby? You may scoff at them wanting to be paid to play the game but that's the nature of the modern rugby world. McClutchie had to get a short term Japanese contract a few years back because despite being one of the better 10s in the NPC, he couldn't even get a third 10 spot in a NZ super team (while a guy Garden-Bachop has a multi year super career). Sadly, club rugby isn't ever going to get back to the status it used to have.
Also, the reason we love the NPC/Magpies so much these days as they're probably been the most homegrown they've been since the 1980s (and lets take off the rose tinted glasses, there was lots of moving between provinces pre professionalism). We actually have a clear pathway for players from school and club rugby (bar the idiot coaches' few mates from Wellington he parachuted in). If BoP is still operating on a mostly invitational basis then that's on them.
@Kiwiwomble said in Exodus:
@Nepia i feel it use to be those guy heading to retirement but is slowly moving to the "fringe" players, those that pushed player to the next level
What are they supposed to do otherwise? What should Caleb Makene, for example, do when he misses out on a Super contract? His options are sign a full overseas contract, sign with MLR/NPC, or find some work and play club rugby. The romantic third version is pretty unrealistic.
@Nepia im not saying they should have done anything else personally, they need to do what they need to do....that doesn;t mean its also not bad for NZR in general
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i know you weird Hawkes Bay fluffybunnies only care about the NPC, but that doesn't sound like a great fucking solution to me.
The NPC used to be this great comp where guys who played in your province played for your province against other provinces, and you cared! Now? It's just like any other pro comp in the world, except its not professional.
The wait and glee for NPC signings on here makes me sick.
There is a world of difference between a guy not playing club rugby in your province because he's busy playing Super rugby, and a guy not playing club rugby in your province because he's playing in America.
Oh, yay for the players, they can make a "living" playing code. We're on the slippery slope cricket is already sliding down with the various T20 comps around the world.
@mariner4life said in Exodus:
i know you weird Hawkes Bay fluffybunnies only care about the NPC, but that doesn't sound like a great fucking solution to me.
The NPC used to be this great comp where guys who played in your province played for your province against other provinces, and you cared! Now? It's just like any other pro comp in the world, except its not professional.
The last few years, the number of players returning to their home province has actually increased, but that wasn't really what this discussion is about.
The wait and glee for NPC signings on here makes me sick.
Some of us still love the NPC, yes.
There is a world of difference between a guy not playing club rugby in your province because he's busy playing Super rugby, and a guy not playing club rugby in your province because he's playing in America.
No one disputed that.
Oh, yay for the players, they can make a "living" playing code. We're on the slippery slope cricket is already sliding down with the various T20 comps around the world.
You still haven't addressed my question as to how NZR is "complicit" in these players going overseas and what power they have to stop that.
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i know you weird Hawkes Bay fluffybunnies only care about the NPC, but that doesn't sound like a great fucking solution to me.
The NPC used to be this great comp where guys who played in your province played for your province against other provinces, and you cared! Now? It's just like any other pro comp in the world, except its not professional.
The wait and glee for NPC signings on here makes me sick.
There is a world of difference between a guy not playing club rugby in your province because he's busy playing Super rugby, and a guy not playing club rugby in your province because he's playing in America.
Oh, yay for the players, they can make a "living" playing code. We're on the slippery slope cricket is already sliding down with the various T20 comps around the world.
@mariner4life said in Exodus:
The NPC used to be this great comp where guys who played in your province played for your province against other provinces, and you cared! Now? It's just like any other pro comp in the world, except its not professional.
The wait and glee for NPC signings on here makes me sick.The NPC sides are getting run more and more like little SR sides. Importing players from other club competitions, not relying on local players when injuries strike
Super Rugby was about getting the best x number of players in the country on the field. If NPC is to mean anything it should be the best players from a provinces club competition playing against another provinces best players
I doubt we can go back to that. The NPC is a little more shit every year. A decade ago it was a shadow of it's glory days.. the additional decline since then is huge
Personally I think there was an opportunity with Covid and the Saffas leaving to consolidate our competitions. Replace SR and NPC with a single, coherent, easy to follow competition. 5 teams is too few, 14 teams is too many. Rugby was great in the 90's with 9 teams.. maybe 10 would be the sweet spot now? Have Trans Ta$man links at a more competitive level. Re-invigorate the Ranfurly Shield etc
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@mariner4life said in Exodus:
The NPC used to be this great comp where guys who played in your province played for your province against other provinces, and you cared! Now? It's just like any other pro comp in the world, except its not professional.
The wait and glee for NPC signings on here makes me sick.The NPC sides are getting run more and more like little SR sides. Importing players from other club competitions, not relying on local players when injuries strike
Super Rugby was about getting the best x number of players in the country on the field. If NPC is to mean anything it should be the best players from a provinces club competition playing against another provinces best players
I doubt we can go back to that. The NPC is a little more shit every year. A decade ago it was a shadow of it's glory days.. the additional decline since then is huge
Personally I think there was an opportunity with Covid and the Saffas leaving to consolidate our competitions. Replace SR and NPC with a single, coherent, easy to follow competition. 5 teams is too few, 14 teams is too many. Rugby was great in the 90's with 9 teams.. maybe 10 would be the sweet spot now? Have Trans Ta$man links at a more competitive level. Re-invigorate the Ranfurly Shield etc
@mariner4life said in Exodus:
The NPC used to be this great comp where guys who played in your province played for your province against other provinces, and you cared! Now? It's just like any other pro comp in the world, except its not professional.
The wait and glee for NPC signings on here makes me sick.The NPC sides are getting run more and more like little SR sides. Importing players from other club competitions, not relying on local players when injuries strike
Super Rugby was about getting the best x number of players in the country on the field. If NPC is to mean anything it should be the best players from a provinces club competition playing against another provinces best players
I doubt we can go back to that. The NPC is a little more shit every year. A decade ago it was a shadow of it's glory days.. the additional decline since then is huge
Personally I think there was an opportunity with Covid and the Saffas leaving to consolidate our competitions. Replace SR and NPC with a single, coherent, easy to follow competition. 5 teams is too few, 14 teams is too many. Rugby was great in the 90's with 9 teams.. maybe 10 would be the sweet spot now? Have Trans Ta$man links at a more competitive level. Re-invigorate the Ranfurly Shield etc
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@mariner4life said in Exodus:
The NPC used to be this great comp where guys who played in your province played for your province against other provinces, and you cared! Now? It's just like any other pro comp in the world, except its not professional.
The wait and glee for NPC signings on here makes me sick.The NPC sides are getting run more and more like little SR sides. Importing players from other club competitions, not relying on local players when injuries strike
Super Rugby was about getting the best x number of players in the country on the field. If NPC is to mean anything it should be the best players from a provinces club competition playing against another provinces best players
I doubt we can go back to that. The NPC is a little more shit every year. A decade ago it was a shadow of it's glory days.. the additional decline since then is huge
Personally I think there was an opportunity with Covid and the Saffas leaving to consolidate our competitions. Replace SR and NPC with a single, coherent, easy to follow competition. 5 teams is too few, 14 teams is too many. Rugby was great in the 90's with 9 teams.. maybe 10 would be the sweet spot now? Have Trans Ta$man links at a more competitive level. Re-invigorate the Ranfurly Shield etc
@mariner4life said in Exodus:
The NPC used to be this great comp where guys who played in your province played for your province against other provinces, and you cared! Now? It's just like any other pro comp in the world, except its not professional.
The wait and glee for NPC signings on here makes me sick.The NPC sides are getting run more and more like little SR sides. Importing players from other club competitions, not relying on local players when injuries strike
Super Rugby was about getting the best x number of players in the country on the field. If NPC is to mean anything it should be the best players from a provinces club competition playing against another provinces best players
I doubt we can go back to that. The NPC is a little more shit every year. A decade ago it was a shadow of it's glory days.. the additional decline since then is huge
Personally I think there was an opportunity with Covid and the Saffas leaving to consolidate our competitions. Replace SR and NPC with a single, coherent, easy to follow competition. 5 teams is too few, 14 teams is too many. Rugby was great in the 90's with 9 teams.. maybe 10 would be the sweet spot now? Have Trans Ta$man links at a more competitive level. Re-invigorate the Ranfurly Shield etc
i think the last couple of NPC seasons have been better than the decade before....but definitely agree with the last bit, i feel we'll all look back on this time period and a missed opportunity
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@mariner4life said in Exodus:
The NPC used to be this great comp where guys who played in your province played for your province against other provinces, and you cared! Now? It's just like any other pro comp in the world, except its not professional.
The wait and glee for NPC signings on here makes me sick.The NPC sides are getting run more and more like little SR sides. Importing players from other club competitions, not relying on local players when injuries strike
Super Rugby was about getting the best x number of players in the country on the field. If NPC is to mean anything it should be the best players from a provinces club competition playing against another provinces best players
I doubt we can go back to that. The NPC is a little more shit every year. A decade ago it was a shadow of it's glory days.. the additional decline since then is huge
Personally I think there was an opportunity with Covid and the Saffas leaving to consolidate our competitions. Replace SR and NPC with a single, coherent, easy to follow competition. 5 teams is too few, 14 teams is too many. Rugby was great in the 90's with 9 teams.. maybe 10 would be the sweet spot now? Have Trans Ta$man links at a more competitive level. Re-invigorate the Ranfurly Shield etc
@mariner4life said in Exodus:
The NPC used to be this great comp where guys who played in your province played for your province against other provinces, and you cared! Now? It's just like any other pro comp in the world, except its not professional.
The wait and glee for NPC signings on here makes me sick.The NPC sides are getting run more and more like little SR sides. Importing players from other club competitions, not relying on local players when injuries strike
Super Rugby was about getting the best x number of players in the country on the field. If NPC is to mean anything it should be the best players from a provinces club competition playing against another provinces best players
I doubt we can go back to that. The NPC is a little more shit every year. A decade ago it was a shadow of it's glory days.. the additional decline since then is huge
Personally I think there was an opportunity with Covid and the Saffas leaving to consolidate our competitions. Replace SR and NPC with a single, coherent, easy to follow competition. 5 teams is too few, 14 teams is too many. Rugby was great in the 90's with 9 teams.. maybe 10 would be the sweet spot now? Have Trans Ta$man links at a more competitive level. Re-invigorate the Ranfurly Shield etc
Yeah, we've had that discussion about reform of the NPC and SR in other threads before and there was significant disagreement about that on the Fern. Not going to regurgitate that in this thread, but the NPC is still a great comp to watch for many rugby fans (despite there being room for improvement) and still a pathway to SR for many players.
Anyway, it seems some are happy to blame NZR for the exodus of the "next level of players", despite NZR not having any ability to stop players from leaving.
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@mariner4life said in Exodus:
The NPC used to be this great comp where guys who played in your province played for your province against other provinces, and you cared! Now? It's just like any other pro comp in the world, except its not professional.
The wait and glee for NPC signings on here makes me sick.The NPC sides are getting run more and more like little SR sides. Importing players from other club competitions, not relying on local players when injuries strike
Super Rugby was about getting the best x number of players in the country on the field. If NPC is to mean anything it should be the best players from a provinces club competition playing against another provinces best players
I doubt we can go back to that. The NPC is a little more shit every year. A decade ago it was a shadow of it's glory days.. the additional decline since then is huge
Personally I think there was an opportunity with Covid and the Saffas leaving to consolidate our competitions. Replace SR and NPC with a single, coherent, easy to follow competition. 5 teams is too few, 14 teams is too many. Rugby was great in the 90's with 9 teams.. maybe 10 would be the sweet spot now? Have Trans Ta$man links at a more competitive level. Re-invigorate the Ranfurly Shield etc
Yeah, we've had that discussion about reform of the NPC and SR in other threads before and there was significant disagreement about that on the Fern. Not going to regurgitate that in this thread, but the NPC is still a great comp to watch for many rugby fans (despite there being room for improvement) and still a pathway to SR for many players.
Anyway, it seems some are happy to blame NZR for the exodus of the "next level of players", despite NZR not having any ability to stop players from leaving.
@Stargazer i feel thats a little simplistic, i think NZR's determination to keep super rugby alive in largely the same form results in the small/short intense competition.
Because of this the franchises dont have the space to have full development of all their players, so squads are often made up of youth or experience with little room for middle ground...its just not an attractive pathway for a lot of players
a longer consolidated competition allowing teams to experiment and blood players without 2-3 loses on the trot ruining their season would be much more attractive to those that really want to make sugby their career
those choices are in NZ's control or at very least influence
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Looks like ti was all bollocks and press stirring shit
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/i-was-really-disappointed-beauden-barrett-refutes-sabbatical-report/
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Can’t say I recognise too many players in the last few posts…
@Billy-Tell said in Exodus:
Can’t say I recognise too many players in the last few posts…
And that's probably the issue. That layer below Super, and even at emerging NPC level being stripped from the game. Weakens the club game as well as the next gen reps.
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I think the romantic idea of an enlarged NPC comp and no super is just that, a romantic idea.
I make no bones I prefer the NPC even now to super, but fully understand why super is needed. If we had a 9-10 team comp, I doubt whether wages would stop more players going overseas. You will still probably keep ABs, but with reduced wages you will then lose a hell of a lot more of next tier players that now play super (and hance get more money).
Would certainly take a lot more players out of club rugby, as club rugby is also played when super is on, and you need the players playing a decent standard before test season. Could also tke us out of any world club comp consideration as weaker teams, if this idea goes ahead we need to be involved or lose more players unfortunately.. As i said earlier we on the pro merry go round now! -
I think the romantic idea of an enlarged NPC comp and no super is just that, a romantic idea.
I make no bones I prefer the NPC even now to super, but fully understand why super is needed. If we had a 9-10 team comp, I doubt whether wages would stop more players going overseas. You will still probably keep ABs, but with reduced wages you will then lose a hell of a lot more of next tier players that now play super (and hance get more money).
Would certainly take a lot more players out of club rugby, as club rugby is also played when super is on, and you need the players playing a decent standard before test season. Could also tke us out of any world club comp consideration as weaker teams, if this idea goes ahead we need to be involved or lose more players unfortunately.. As i said earlier we on the pro merry go round now!I think the romantic idea of an enlarged NPC comp and no super is just that, a romantic idea.
I’m suggesting an enlarged pro competition and giving up on the romantic attachment to a semi pro NPC
Old people clinging to the past is slowly killing the game.
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I think the romantic idea of an enlarged NPC comp and no super is just that, a romantic idea.
I’m suggesting an enlarged pro competition and giving up on the romantic attachment to a semi pro NPC
Old people clinging to the past is slowly killing the game.
Yep mate I understand what you saying and why, not knocking it, was just suggesting why I didn't think it would work, ie killing club rugby more and losing more 2nd tier players, rather than 3rd tier level we losing a lot of now. Wages would not be as high, 9 teams to pay, and anyone not in ABs, not having NPC to boost earnings?
And out of interest the romantic reference is almost to me, as I would love a NPC with ABs in it in my dreams! -
@Duluth That sounds pretty arrogant tbh; insulting someone who doesn't agree with you. (And I'm not talking about myself, because I don't consider myself old
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I think the romantic idea of an enlarged NPC comp and no super is just that, a romantic idea.
I’m suggesting an enlarged pro competition and giving up on the romantic attachment to a semi pro NPC
Old people clinging to the past is slowly killing the game.
Yep mate I understand what you saying and why, not knocking it, was just suggesting why I didn't think it would work, ie killing club rugby more and losing more 2nd tier players, rather than 3rd tier level we losing a lot of now. Wages would not be as high, 9 teams to pay, and anyone not in ABs, not having NPC to boost earnings?
And out of interest the romantic reference is almost to me, as I would love a NPC with ABs in it in my dreams!It would create a partition between the pro and amateur sport. Club rugby would be firmly on the amateur side
It would create more second tier jobs on the pro side. Which in theory would be funded what by providing a more attractive product for pay tv and sponsors.
SR sides are already contracting players out of school and they don't go through the club -> province -> super pathway anymore. It's about accepting that reality and creating a good solid pro competition
No one would design the random season structure we have now from scratch.
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No more arrogant than the post you just liked. Stop policing opinions just because they don't match your bias
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It would create a partition between the pro and amateur sport. Club rugby would be firmly on the amateur side
It would create more second tier jobs on the pro side. Which in theory would be funded what by providing a more attractive product for pay tv and sponsors.
SR sides are already contracting players out of school and they don't go through the club -> province -> super pathway anymore. It's about accepting that reality and creating a good solid pro competition
No one would design the random season structure we have now from scratch.
@Duluth ell I know super do contract players straight out of school, generally to academies and are there really any that miss the NPC nowadays?
I have wondered about restructuring the season, and if you had npc before ABs to get players in right condition , you will kill club rugby in provinces the real grassroots rugby in NZ, as the club game would be played later.
I honestly think we stuck with what we got as it is basically what works for NZ rugby structure.
NZ rughy is structured with club rugby first for a reason. -
Old people clinging to the past is slowly killing the game.
Maybe, but is more those in power and at NZR who are clinging to it, hoping somehow something will change and it will return to some glory days - they tried to shaft Northland & Ta$man a dozen or so years back off doctored criteria, have had numerous other opportunities to make a proper change, instead just put bandaids over it.
I'm obviously a big fan of NPC, and like comments above, think there has been an improvement in the past few seaosns, whether this is due to Covid or other factors remains to be seen.
But I am also realistic that this model isnt sustainable, but I, like many dont have an answer that will be palpable to stakeholders around NZ, although I think the current model is only a tweak or 2 away from being as good as we will get as NPC slowly loses its relevance.
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Old people clinging to the past is slowly killing the game.
Maybe, but is more those in power and at NZR who are clinging to it, hoping somehow something will change and it will return to some glory days - they tried to shaft Northland & Ta$man a dozen or so years back off doctored criteria, have had numerous other opportunities to make a proper change, instead just put bandaids over it.
I'm obviously a big fan of NPC, and like comments above, think there has been an improvement in the past few seaosns, whether this is due to Covid or other factors remains to be seen.
But I am also realistic that this model isnt sustainable, but I, like many dont have an answer that will be palpable to stakeholders around NZ, although I think the current model is only a tweak or 2 away from being as good as we will get as NPC slowly loses its relevance.
@taniwharugby the only thing I see to maybe improving NPC is for maybe Southlnad to amalgamte with South Canterbury, and maybe Manawatu with Whanganui, or some such thing, though I not sure SC or Whang would be interested in going up even in a combined team, they seem prettyy happy as they are. Perhaps Southland and Manawatu go back and have a second and 3rd div again, but would imagine that would met with a lot of argument fron not only them, but Hurricanes and Highlanders too.
I just can'rt really see how the season would/should be changed apart from that. -
@taniwharugby the only thing I see to maybe improving NPC is for maybe Southlnad to amalgamte with South Canterbury, and maybe Manawatu with Whanganui, or some such thing, though I not sure SC or Whang would be interested in going up even in a combined team, they seem prettyy happy as they are. Perhaps Southland and Manawatu go back and have a second and 3rd div again, but would imagine that would met with a lot of argument fron not only them, but Hurricanes and Highlanders too.
I just can'rt really see how the season would/should be changed apart from that.@Dan54 well for a start, just play the other 6 teams in your pool, like the prvious version, playing teams not in your pool but getting points for it, aint great, then crossover 1/4s, will also remove the need for storm week, which is a win cos Wednesday night rugby aint ideal for viewers and players with 3 games in 8 days.
