AB squad for the Rugby Championship
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Grant Fox -"This goes to the heart of a debate that people think we don't quite understand what our best loose forward combination is or where we sit with six. The answer is we do, but we're not prepared to announce that now."
"There's three areas which won't surprise anyone," Fox said of where the selectors have the most dialogue. "Loose forwards is one of them, even though we're very clear on where we're going, there's still a lot of discussion because there's a lot of depth there.
Perhaps that simply means Squire to come back.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=12254727
@Frank said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
Grant Fox -"This goes to the heart of a debate that people think we don't quite understand what our best loose forward combination is or where we sit with six. The answer is we do, but we're not prepared to announce that now."
"There's three areas which won't surprise anyone," Fox said of where the selectors have the most dialogue. "Loose forwards is one of them, even though we're very clear on where we're going, there's still a lot of discussion because there's a lot of depth there.
Perhaps that simply means Squire to come back.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=12254727
Won’t surprise me when they name
6- S. Barrett
7- M. Todd
8- K. Read (c) -
@Frank said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
Grant Fox -"This goes to the heart of a debate that people think we don't quite understand what our best loose forward combination is or where we sit with six. The answer is we do, but we're not prepared to announce that now."
"There's three areas which won't surprise anyone," Fox said of where the selectors have the most dialogue. "Loose forwards is one of them, even though we're very clear on where we're going, there's still a lot of discussion because there's a lot of depth there.
Perhaps that simply means Squire to come back.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=12254727
Won’t surprise me when they name
6- S. Barrett
7- M. Todd
8- K. Read (c) -
@Crucial said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
Only read the last couple of pages but man everyone is obsessed with height.
Remember that the usual AB plays at line out involve quick thinking and action rather than an extra two inches in height.
The best thing to do against the likes of England, Ireland and SA is to get to the line quickly and biff it in to the first organised pod while the opposition are getting organised.What do we do when it's their throw and Big Pieter is waving his arms saying "throw it to me - I'm being marked by Benny Hill's sidekick"!
@Chris-B said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
@Crucial said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
Only read the last couple of pages but man everyone is obsessed with height.
Remember that the usual AB plays at line out involve quick thinking and action rather than an extra two inches in height.
The best thing to do against the likes of England, Ireland and SA is to get to the line quickly and biff it in to the first organised pod while the opposition are getting organised.What do we do when it's their throw and Big Pieter is waving his arms saying "throw it to me - I'm being marked by Benny Hill's sidekick"!
I'm happy to be corrected but, on a defensive lineout, you'd only really ever have two jumpers - usually one at the front and one patrolling the middle-to-back. In that scenario, it's very unlikely you'd be hoisting up your fourth jumper (especially if he is a short-arse). So, I don't see the 6's height being an issue on D, except maybe as a lifter.
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@Chris-B said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
@Crucial said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
Only read the last couple of pages but man everyone is obsessed with height.
Remember that the usual AB plays at line out involve quick thinking and action rather than an extra two inches in height.
The best thing to do against the likes of England, Ireland and SA is to get to the line quickly and biff it in to the first organised pod while the opposition are getting organised.What do we do when it's their throw and Big Pieter is waving his arms saying "throw it to me - I'm being marked by Benny Hill's sidekick"!
I'm happy to be corrected but, on a defensive lineout, you'd only really ever have two jumpers - usually one at the front and one patrolling the middle-to-back. In that scenario, it's very unlikely you'd be hoisting up your fourth jumper (especially if he is a short-arse). So, I don't see the 6's height being an issue on D, except maybe as a lifter.
@junior I agree.
We took a couple of early opposition line-outs in the last match. Neither were by matching the jumper. Instead we got a man in front at the right time.
Taking opposition throws is very rarely about being taller.
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Yes - you've got to get a man in front. But, that guy has to be tall and fast enough to be competitive.
Last weekend's game saw us get some soft wins at the front from Frizell - no-one up against him.
Contrast that with what we saw at the end of the Argentina game - Liam Coltman being singled out for wonky lineout throwing - but, who were his targets?
Retallick (good), Hemopo, Jacobson, Savea, Cane.
The Argies took us down!
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Yes - you've got to get a man in front. But, that guy has to be tall and fast enough to be competitive.
Last weekend's game saw us get some soft wins at the front from Frizell - no-one up against him.
Contrast that with what we saw at the end of the Argentina game - Liam Coltman being singled out for wonky lineout throwing - but, who were his targets?
Retallick (good), Hemopo, Jacobson, Savea, Cane.
The Argies took us down!
@Chris-B said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
Yes - you've got to get a man in front. But, that guy has to be tall and fast enough to be competitive.
Last weekend's game saw us get some soft wins at the front from Frizell - no-one up against him.
Contrast that with what we saw at the end of the Argentina game - Liam Coltman being singled out for wonky lineout throwing - but, who were his targets?
Retallick (good), Hemopo, Jacobson, Savea, Cane.
The Argies took us down!
So Coltman couldn’t throw straight because the back rowers were a few cm too short? Hmm not sure i buy that.
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@Chris-B said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
Yes - you've got to get a man in front. But, that guy has to be tall and fast enough to be competitive.
Last weekend's game saw us get some soft wins at the front from Frizell - no-one up against him.
Contrast that with what we saw at the end of the Argentina game - Liam Coltman being singled out for wonky lineout throwing - but, who were his targets?
Retallick (good), Hemopo, Jacobson, Savea, Cane.
The Argies took us down!
So Coltman couldn’t throw straight because the back rowers were a few cm too short? Hmm not sure i buy that.
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@Bovidae said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
At the presser yesterday Hansen was asked again about Read at 6. He just smiled and said they had a plan for the no.6 jersey while not giving anything away. Cryptic.
Link ??
@Frank said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
@Bovidae said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
At the presser yesterday Hansen was asked again about Read at 6. He just smiled and said they had a plan for the no.6 jersey while not giving anything away. Cryptic.
Link ??
No. Hansen
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@pukunui He didn't have any that weren't straight, did he? They were just "a bit short" and picked off by the Argies.
Same thing used to happen when we had a loose trio of Jerry, Richie and Rodders. Our hookers just couldn't throw....
@Chris-B said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
@pukunui He didn't have any that weren't straight, did he? They were just "a bit short" and picked off by the Argies.
Same thing used to happen when we had a loose trio of Jerry, Richie and Rodders. Our hookers just couldn't throw....
I can’t remember if the length was his only issue. Still think it is a long bow to draw to blame his poor throwing on the height of the back row when he was throwing low to the guys who supposedly too short.
To be honest i agree height is important and ideally your 6 would have it all but along with speed i would have height well down the list of attributes that are essential in an AB 6.
Hard hitting defence and work rate would be the top and probably ball carrying next. I think you get those things and the attributes of an AB 7 in a combination of Cane and Savea with Savea bring the ball carrying.Scott Barrett or Hemopo may be the answer too.
Fifita is not and Jacobson is an unknown. Time is running out. -
@Chris-B said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
@pukunui He didn't have any that weren't straight, did he? They were just "a bit short" and picked off by the Argies.
Same thing used to happen when we had a loose trio of Jerry, Richie and Rodders. Our hookers just couldn't throw....
I can’t remember if the length was his only issue. Still think it is a long bow to draw to blame his poor throwing on the height of the back row when he was throwing low to the guys who supposedly too short.
To be honest i agree height is important and ideally your 6 would have it all but along with speed i would have height well down the list of attributes that are essential in an AB 6.
Hard hitting defence and work rate would be the top and probably ball carrying next. I think you get those things and the attributes of an AB 7 in a combination of Cane and Savea with Savea bring the ball carrying.Scott Barrett or Hemopo may be the answer too.
Fifita is not and Jacobson is an unknown. Time is running out.@pukunui As I recall, I don't think there were any scrums - I think the Argies just got in front of our jumpers and knocked them down. Someone else might have the game recorded and look at who we were throwing to, but I bet at least one was aimed at Retallick - and everyone else would likely have been jumping against someone taller without a lot of deception.
B&I Lions did the same against the Crusaders - double-teamed Sam Whitelock when our other options were poor.
Size is important in all things. A number of instances where its been reported that the AB coaches have asked players to put on a few more kgs. Hookers and loosies especially. They wouldn't be doing that if it wasn't important - and for more than lineouts. Winning rugby is about winning the collisions and good big guys win the collisions against good little guys.
(They've also asked a few fat props to trim down for obvious reasons).
Hansen likes big opensides - McCaw and Cane have been his first choices. He likes big blindsides as well.
We're dug into a bit of a hole at 6 and you're dead right - time is running out.
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@Chris-B Not to bring up player height again, but outside of Lavanini, you might be surprised at how short the Argentinean locks/loosies are.
@Bovidae You're probably right - I've got little idea- apart from that Matera is a decent size and seems exactly what we need.
I guess that Jaguares guy got banned again, since he doesn't appear to be weighing in on anything. He'd doubtless have some stats at his fingertips...
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It does seem to me that if you’re throwing to a shorter target in a contested line out you have a smaller margin for error. You’d be pretty confident you could put it high for BBBR, Whitelock & Read and back them to haul it in as they’re both tall and good jumpers.
Height may not be the only factor but being good in the line out is pretty important, you don’t want your Hooker under pressure as it’s a tough job at the best of times.
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It does seem to me that if you’re throwing to a shorter target in a contested line out you have a smaller margin for error. You’d be pretty confident you could put it high for BBBR, Whitelock & Read and back them to haul it in as they’re both tall and good jumpers.
Height may not be the only factor but being good in the line out is pretty important, you don’t want your Hooker under pressure as it’s a tough job at the best of times.
@No-Quarter Don't believe anyone who tries to tell you different!
We've had a dominant lineout with:
Retallick 2.04 m
Whitelock 2.02 m
Kaino 1.96 m
Read 1.94 mAll tall men for their position - and Read and Whitelock are superb jumpers. Read's been IMO opinion the best 3rd option in the world for a long time - and Whitelock probably the best overall - though there's doubtless some NH people who would tout their own guys.
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@SammyC said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
Patronising bulshit from Fox.
How so?
I'm firmly in the camp that Hansen & co have reached their used-by date and are bottling this RWC campaign but I don't quite get how how that is patronising.
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@Chris-B Not to bring up player height again, but outside of Lavanini, you might be surprised at how short the Argentinean locks/loosies are.
@Bovidae said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
@Chris-B Not to bring up player height again, but outside of Lavanini, you might be surprised at how short the Argentinean locks/loosies are.
ARG v NZL
Starting locks:
Tomás Lavanini - 2.01m | 123 KG
Guido Petti Pagadizábal - 1.94m | 110 KGReserve lock (replaced Kremer):
Matías Alemanno - 1.98m | 112 KGStarting loosies:
6 Pablo Matera – 1.93m | 107 KG
7 Marcos Kremer – 1.95m | 116 KG (also plays at lock)
8 Javier Ortega Desio - 1.93m | 109 KGReserve loosie (replaced Lavanini):
Tomás Lezana - 1.87m | 102 KG -
Regarding 6, I'm still kind of hoping Fifita comes good, and that TWM see something in him we don't in training/data etc.
I think of the start of Kaino's career, he played the BaaBaas games in 2003 (I think) then was nowhere for years, before finally becoming an AB regular post 2007 RWC. And by 2011 RWC was the best in the world (how did he not win player of the year in '11 over Dusatoir?!). Like Fifita, he was a super athlete at the start of his career, but too loose. I think he was the fastest player in the Auckland team at one stage? Then as he matured, tightened his game up, and then just crushed ppl at Test level for nearly a decade.
Only issue with this comparison is Fifita isn't that young at 27...
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Yes - you've got to get a man in front. But, that guy has to be tall and fast enough to be competitive.
Last weekend's game saw us get some soft wins at the front from Frizell - no-one up against him.
Contrast that with what we saw at the end of the Argentina game - Liam Coltman being singled out for wonky lineout throwing - but, who were his targets?
Retallick (good), Hemopo, Jacobson, Savea, Cane.
The Argies took us down!
@Chris-B said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
Yes - you've got to get a man in front. But, that guy has to be tall and fast enough to be competitive.
Last weekend's game saw us get some soft wins at the front from Frizell - no-one up against him.
Contrast that with what we saw at the end of the Argentina game - Liam Coltman being singled out for wonky lineout throwing - but, who were his targets?
Retallick (good), Hemopo, Jacobson, Savea, Cane.
The Argies took us down!
I can't recall exactly who was jumping in the lineouts your talking about (although I know we lost a couple of key ones when Coltman came on), but my recollection is that they were bad calls (i.e. 2 ball very obviously being targeted even before the throw) compounded by shit throws. I'm not saying that height doesn't play a role (in some cases it clearly will), but that calls, throwing and timing (i.e. as you say a quick jump / lift) are far more important.
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@Chris-B said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
Yes - you've got to get a man in front. But, that guy has to be tall and fast enough to be competitive.
Last weekend's game saw us get some soft wins at the front from Frizell - no-one up against him.
Contrast that with what we saw at the end of the Argentina game - Liam Coltman being singled out for wonky lineout throwing - but, who were his targets?
Retallick (good), Hemopo, Jacobson, Savea, Cane.
The Argies took us down!
I can't recall exactly who was jumping in the lineouts your talking about (although I know we lost a couple of key ones when Coltman came on), but my recollection is that they were bad calls (i.e. 2 ball very obviously being targeted even before the throw) compounded by shit throws. I'm not saying that height doesn't play a role (in some cases it clearly will), but that calls, throwing and timing (i.e. as you say a quick jump / lift) are far more important.
@junior said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
@Chris-B said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
Yes - you've got to get a man in front. But, that guy has to be tall and fast enough to be competitive.
Last weekend's game saw us get some soft wins at the front from Frizell - no-one up against him.
Contrast that with what we saw at the end of the Argentina game - Liam Coltman being singled out for wonky lineout throwing - but, who were his targets?
Retallick (good), Hemopo, Jacobson, Savea, Cane.
The Argies took us down!
I can't recall exactly who was jumping in the lineouts your talking about (although I know we lost a couple of key ones when Coltman came on), but my recollection is that they were bad calls (i.e. 2 ball very obviously being targeted even before the throw) compounded by shit throws. I'm not saying that height doesn't play a role (in some cases it clearly will), but that calls, throwing and timing (i.e. as you say a quick jump / lift) are far more important.
Thinking about it a bit more, height is likely to be far more important defensively, where you might have a short guy, right at the end of his reach, competing for a ball against a tall guy catching a ball right between his eyes. (Conversely, on attacking lineouts, sometimes the taller guy has to "reach down" to compete against a shorter guy.) But, as I said, on defence, you're really only going to have 2 jumpers, both of whom are likely to be your best and tallest jumpers.
