AB squad for the Rugby Championship
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Yes - you've got to get a man in front. But, that guy has to be tall and fast enough to be competitive.
Last weekend's game saw us get some soft wins at the front from Frizell - no-one up against him.
Contrast that with what we saw at the end of the Argentina game - Liam Coltman being singled out for wonky lineout throwing - but, who were his targets?
Retallick (good), Hemopo, Jacobson, Savea, Cane.
The Argies took us down!
@Chris-B said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
Yes - you've got to get a man in front. But, that guy has to be tall and fast enough to be competitive.
Last weekend's game saw us get some soft wins at the front from Frizell - no-one up against him.
Contrast that with what we saw at the end of the Argentina game - Liam Coltman being singled out for wonky lineout throwing - but, who were his targets?
Retallick (good), Hemopo, Jacobson, Savea, Cane.
The Argies took us down!
I can't recall exactly who was jumping in the lineouts your talking about (although I know we lost a couple of key ones when Coltman came on), but my recollection is that they were bad calls (i.e. 2 ball very obviously being targeted even before the throw) compounded by shit throws. I'm not saying that height doesn't play a role (in some cases it clearly will), but that calls, throwing and timing (i.e. as you say a quick jump / lift) are far more important.
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@Chris-B said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
Yes - you've got to get a man in front. But, that guy has to be tall and fast enough to be competitive.
Last weekend's game saw us get some soft wins at the front from Frizell - no-one up against him.
Contrast that with what we saw at the end of the Argentina game - Liam Coltman being singled out for wonky lineout throwing - but, who were his targets?
Retallick (good), Hemopo, Jacobson, Savea, Cane.
The Argies took us down!
I can't recall exactly who was jumping in the lineouts your talking about (although I know we lost a couple of key ones when Coltman came on), but my recollection is that they were bad calls (i.e. 2 ball very obviously being targeted even before the throw) compounded by shit throws. I'm not saying that height doesn't play a role (in some cases it clearly will), but that calls, throwing and timing (i.e. as you say a quick jump / lift) are far more important.
@junior said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
@Chris-B said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
Yes - you've got to get a man in front. But, that guy has to be tall and fast enough to be competitive.
Last weekend's game saw us get some soft wins at the front from Frizell - no-one up against him.
Contrast that with what we saw at the end of the Argentina game - Liam Coltman being singled out for wonky lineout throwing - but, who were his targets?
Retallick (good), Hemopo, Jacobson, Savea, Cane.
The Argies took us down!
I can't recall exactly who was jumping in the lineouts your talking about (although I know we lost a couple of key ones when Coltman came on), but my recollection is that they were bad calls (i.e. 2 ball very obviously being targeted even before the throw) compounded by shit throws. I'm not saying that height doesn't play a role (in some cases it clearly will), but that calls, throwing and timing (i.e. as you say a quick jump / lift) are far more important.
Thinking about it a bit more, height is likely to be far more important defensively, where you might have a short guy, right at the end of his reach, competing for a ball against a tall guy catching a ball right between his eyes. (Conversely, on attacking lineouts, sometimes the taller guy has to "reach down" to compete against a shorter guy.) But, as I said, on defence, you're really only going to have 2 jumpers, both of whom are likely to be your best and tallest jumpers.
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In summary, if our lineout turns to complete shit, because our 4th option is a few cms shorter than his opposite, I'd be asking questions of the first 3 (supposedly world class) options before getting too caught up on someone else's height.
@junior said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
In summary, if our lineout turns to complete shit, because our 4th option is a few cms shorter than his opposite, I'd be asking questions of the first 3 (supposedly world class) options before getting too caught up on someone else's height.
Yes, not entirely convinced that the current set up with three world class options is worse than 2011 when we had a non-jumping lock.
Who were the third and fourth options behind Matfield and Botha when they used to towel us in the 00's again?
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@junior said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
In summary, if our lineout turns to complete shit, because our 4th option is a few cms shorter than his opposite, I'd be asking questions of the first 3 (supposedly world class) options before getting too caught up on someone else's height.
Yes, not entirely convinced that the current set up with three world class options is worse than 2011 when we had a non-jumping lock.
Who were the third and fourth options behind Matfield and Botha when they used to towel us in the 00's again?
@rotated said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
@junior said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
In summary, if our lineout turns to complete shit, because our 4th option is a few cms shorter than his opposite, I'd be asking questions of the first 3 (supposedly world class) options before getting too caught up on someone else's height.
Yes, not entirely convinced that the current set up with three world class options is worse than 2011 when we had a non-jumping lock.
Who were the third and fourth options behind Matfield and Botha when they used to towel us in the 00's again?
Danie Russouw probably - a big bastard, but hardly a notable lineout jumper
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@junior said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
In summary, if our lineout turns to complete shit, because our 4th option is a few cms shorter than his opposite, I'd be asking questions of the first 3 (supposedly world class) options before getting too caught up on someone else's height.
Yes, not entirely convinced that the current set up with three world class options is worse than 2011 when we had a non-jumping lock.
Who were the third and fourth options behind Matfield and Botha when they used to towel us in the 00's again?
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I am thinking that the ABs lost a lot when Broadhurst decided to end his career because of his concussion symptoms. I know he was just OKish against SA but he would have improved. NZ don't have too many locks with such a physique.
By the way, Afeaki would probably be the current starter at TH if he hadn't suffered from concussion. -
@Bones said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
It seems there's a bit too much stock/trust put in things Hansen says in pressers. How many times has he said things like Hemopo is a 6 only, Barrett is a 10 only, Cane/Savea/Read won't play together...
he absolutely just makes shit up on the fly to throw everyone off what he is actually thinking
@mariner4life said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
he absolutely just makes shit up on the fly to throw everyone off what he is actually thinking
Cunning way to keep the powder dry, I reckon.
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I am thinking that the ABs lost a lot when Broadhurst decided to end his career because of his concussion symptoms. I know he was just OKish against SA but he would have improved. NZ don't have too many locks with such a physique.
By the way, Afeaki would probably be the current starter at TH if he hadn't suffered from concussion.@cgrant said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
I am thinking that the ABs lost a lot when Broadhurst decided to end his career because of his concussion symptoms. I know he was just OKish against SA but he would have improved. NZ don't have too many locks with such a physique.
By the way, Afeaki would probably be the current starter at TH if he hadn't suffered from concussion.Dom Bird is only 28. He never reached the required level in NZ (despite the 2 caps) but I still think he'd be very handy to have around.
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@cgrant said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
I am thinking that the ABs lost a lot when Broadhurst decided to end his career because of his concussion symptoms. I know he was just OKish against SA but he would have improved. NZ don't have too many locks with such a physique.
By the way, Afeaki would probably be the current starter at TH if he hadn't suffered from concussion.Dom Bird is only 28. He never reached the required level in NZ (despite the 2 caps) but I still think he'd be very handy to have around.
@mofitzy_ said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
@cgrant said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
I am thinking that the ABs lost a lot when Broadhurst decided to end his career because of his concussion symptoms. I know he was just OKish against SA but he would have improved. NZ don't have too many locks with such a physique.
By the way, Afeaki would probably be the current starter at TH if he hadn't suffered from concussion.Dom Bird is only 28. He never reached the required level in NZ (despite the 2 caps) but I still think he'd be very handy to have around.
And... let the Bird puns fly...
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@cgrant said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
I am thinking that the ABs lost a lot when Broadhurst decided to end his career because of his concussion symptoms. I know he was just OKish against SA but he would have improved. NZ don't have too many locks with such a physique.
By the way, Afeaki would probably be the current starter at TH if he hadn't suffered from concussion.Dom Bird is only 28. He never reached the required level in NZ (despite the 2 caps) but I still think he'd be very handy to have around.
@mofitzy_ said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
@cgrant said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
I am thinking that the ABs lost a lot when Broadhurst decided to end his career because of his concussion symptoms. I know he was just OKish against SA but he would have improved. NZ don't have too many locks with such a physique.
By the way, Afeaki would probably be the current starter at TH if he hadn't suffered from concussion.Dom Bird is only 28. He never reached the required level in NZ (despite the 2 caps) but I still think he'd be very handy to have around.
So what you’re saying is a bird in the hand is better than...
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@Bovidae said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
@Chris-B Not to bring up player height again, but outside of Lavanini, you might be surprised at how short the Argentinean locks/loosies are.
ARG v NZL
Starting locks:
Tomás Lavanini - 2.01m | 123 KG
Guido Petti Pagadizábal - 1.94m | 110 KGReserve lock (replaced Kremer):
Matías Alemanno - 1.98m | 112 KGStarting loosies:
6 Pablo Matera – 1.93m | 107 KG
7 Marcos Kremer – 1.95m | 116 KG (also plays at lock)
8 Javier Ortega Desio - 1.93m | 109 KGReserve loosie (replaced Lavanini):
Tomás Lezana - 1.87m | 102 KG@Stargazer said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
@Bovidae said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
@Chris-B Not to bring up player height again, but outside of Lavanini, you might be surprised at how short the Argentinean locks/loosies are.
ARG v NZL
Starting locks:
Tomás Lavanini - 2.01m | 123 KG
Guido Petti Pagadizábal - 1.94m | 110 KGAnd Petti is their main lock.
Isa played at no.8 vs Aust and is only 1.88 m.
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@No-Quarter Don't believe anyone who tries to tell you different!
We've had a dominant lineout with:
Retallick 2.04 m
Whitelock 2.02 m
Kaino 1.96 m
Read 1.94 mAll tall men for their position - and Read and Whitelock are superb jumpers. Read's been IMO opinion the best 3rd option in the world for a long time - and Whitelock probably the best overall - though there's doubtless some NH people who would tout their own guys.
@Chris-B said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
@No-Quarter Don't believe anyone who tries to tell you different!
We've had a dominant lineout with:
Retallick 2.04 m
Whitelock 2.02 m
Kaino 1.96 m
Read 1.94 mAll tall men for their position - and Read and Whitelock are superb jumpers. Read's been IMO opinion the best 3rd option in the world for a long time - and Whitelock probably the best overall - though there's doubtless some NH people who would tout their own guys.
don't overlook the lifting height too. Tall lifter plus tall jumper is the ultimate combo
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@Chris-B said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
@No-Quarter Don't believe anyone who tries to tell you different!
We've had a dominant lineout with:
Retallick 2.04 m
Whitelock 2.02 m
Kaino 1.96 m
Read 1.94 mAll tall men for their position - and Read and Whitelock are superb jumpers. Read's been IMO opinion the best 3rd option in the world for a long time - and Whitelock probably the best overall - though there's doubtless some NH people who would tout their own guys.
don't overlook the lifting height too. Tall lifter plus tall jumper is the ultimate combo
As dirty as it makes me feel, I have to say that Fifita is not only a good jumper, but one other thing I noticed in the re-watch is that he’s also a pretty good lifter.
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Regarding 6, I'm still kind of hoping Fifita comes good, and that TWM see something in him we don't in training/data etc.
I think of the start of Kaino's career, he played the BaaBaas games in 2003 (I think) then was nowhere for years, before finally becoming an AB regular post 2007 RWC. And by 2011 RWC was the best in the world (how did he not win player of the year in '11 over Dusatoir?!). Like Fifita, he was a super athlete at the start of his career, but too loose. I think he was the fastest player in the Auckland team at one stage? Then as he matured, tightened his game up, and then just crushed ppl at Test level for nearly a decade.
Only issue with this comparison is Fifita isn't that young at 27...
@TeWaio said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
Regarding 6, I'm still kind of hoping Fifita comes good, and that TWM see something in him we don't in training/data etc.
I think of the start of Kaino's career, he played the BaaBaas games in 2003 (I think) then was nowhere for years, before finally becoming an AB regular post 2007 RWC. And by 2011 RWC was the best in the world (how did he not win player of the year in '11 over Dusatoir?!). Like Fifita, he was a super athlete at the start of his career, but too loose. I think he was the fastest player in the Auckland team at one stage? Then as he matured, tightened his game up, and then just crushed ppl at Test level for nearly a decade.
Only issue with this comparison is Fifita isn't that young at 27...
And that his athleticism will come in handy on the field in Japan.
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@TeWaio said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
Regarding 6, I'm still kind of hoping Fifita comes good, and that TWM see something in him we don't in training/data etc.
I think of the start of Kaino's career, he played the BaaBaas games in 2003 (I think) then was nowhere for years, before finally becoming an AB regular post 2007 RWC. And by 2011 RWC was the best in the world (how did he not win player of the year in '11 over Dusatoir?!). Like Fifita, he was a super athlete at the start of his career, but too loose. I think he was the fastest player in the Auckland team at one stage? Then as he matured, tightened his game up, and then just crushed ppl at Test level for nearly a decade.
Only issue with this comparison is Fifita isn't that young at 27...
And that his athleticism will come in handy on the field in Japan.
If that’s the case, they need to set up better/different front running pods and put him up there.
Right now our front pods don’t even slow down the defense - they are too far in front so super hard to use anyway. I’m hoping that is one thing they have up their sleeve.
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@Chris-B said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
@No-Quarter Don't believe anyone who tries to tell you different!
We've had a dominant lineout with:
Retallick 2.04 m
Whitelock 2.02 m
Kaino 1.96 m
Read 1.94 mAll tall men for their position - and Read and Whitelock are superb jumpers. Read's been IMO opinion the best 3rd option in the world for a long time - and Whitelock probably the best overall - though there's doubtless some NH people who would tout their own guys.
don't overlook the lifting height too. Tall lifter plus tall jumper is the ultimate combo
@mariner4life said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
@Chris-B said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
@No-Quarter Don't believe anyone who tries to tell you different!
We've had a dominant lineout with:
Retallick 2.04 m
Whitelock 2.02 m
Kaino 1.96 m
Read 1.94 mAll tall men for their position - and Read and Whitelock are superb jumpers. Read's been IMO opinion the best 3rd option in the world for a long time - and Whitelock probably the best overall - though there's doubtless some NH people who would tout their own guys.
don't overlook the lifting height too. Tall lifter plus tall jumper is the ultimate combo
Yeah. My overall point is that Hansen's very clearly been searching for a like-for-like swap with Kaino - picking Squire, Fifita, Dixon and Frizell.
He's been quite formulaic in swapping out McCaw (108kg) for Sam Cane (built to 109 kg) - heavy opensides.
If he now switches to an Ardie/Sam combo then that's definitely not what the plan was.
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@ACT-Crusader Douglas must be bubbling under.
@Bones said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
@ACT-Crusader Douglas must be bubbling under.
Bench
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@Chris-B said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
@No-Quarter Don't believe anyone who tries to tell you different!
We've had a dominant lineout with:
Retallick 2.04 m
Whitelock 2.02 m
Kaino 1.96 m
Read 1.94 mAll tall men for their position - and Read and Whitelock are superb jumpers. Read's been IMO opinion the best 3rd option in the world for a long time - and Whitelock probably the best overall - though there's doubtless some NH people who would tout their own guys.
don't overlook the lifting height too. Tall lifter plus tall jumper is the ultimate combo
@mariner4life said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
@Chris-B said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
@No-Quarter Don't believe anyone who tries to tell you different!
We've had a dominant lineout with:
Retallick 2.04 m
Whitelock 2.02 m
Kaino 1.96 m
Read 1.94 mAll tall men for their position - and Read and Whitelock are superb jumpers. Read's been IMO opinion the best 3rd option in the world for a long time - and Whitelock probably the best overall - though there's doubtless some NH people who would tout their own guys.
don't overlook the lifting height too. Tall lifter plus tall jumper is the ultimate combo
You saying we miss Crocky?
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Regarding 6, I'm still kind of hoping Fifita comes good, and that TWM see something in him we don't in training/data etc.
I think of the start of Kaino's career, he played the BaaBaas games in 2003 (I think) then was nowhere for years, before finally becoming an AB regular post 2007 RWC. And by 2011 RWC was the best in the world (how did he not win player of the year in '11 over Dusatoir?!). Like Fifita, he was a super athlete at the start of his career, but too loose. I think he was the fastest player in the Auckland team at one stage? Then as he matured, tightened his game up, and then just crushed ppl at Test level for nearly a decade.
Only issue with this comparison is Fifita isn't that young at 27...
@TeWaio said in AB squad for the Rugby Championship:
Regarding 6, I'm still kind of hoping Fifita comes good, and that TWM see something in him we don't in training/data etc.
I think of the start of Kaino's career, he played the BaaBaas games in 2003 (I think) then was nowhere for years, before finally becoming an AB regular post 2007 RWC. And by 2011 RWC was the best in the world (how did he not win player of the year in '11 over Dusatoir?!). Like Fifita, he was a super athlete at the start of his career, but too loose. I think he was the fastest player in the Auckland team at one stage? Then as he matured, tightened his game up, and then just crushed ppl at Test level for nearly a decade.
Only issue with this comparison is Fifita isn't that young at 27...
And although he didn’t reach the level of Kaino, there are some similarities there in that path with Messam as well, considered a bit loose in the beginning, turned into a handy test footballer
