Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November

[Big Bok]

Congratulations the ABs came back.

As was to be expected:
• Win built on forward dominance (almost walkover)
• Had plan to go round the rock-solid mid-field defense - by kicking over and to the wings
• AB hookers were badly behaved
• Given half a chance, WJ will find his way to the line
• Akira did justice to the 6 jersey
• Argentina folded under the pressure

What was not expected:
• Save for a few just-outside the 22 bombs, kicks were just a waste of ball
• Backline failed to spark
• SB was impressive

Summary. "Just pick one" would have had Beauden on with Ritchie having an off day - important in close games when an extra spark is needed (remember Chicago). Most of the time the ABs are still the team to beat BUT they have developed a worrying (for their supporters) tendency to go off the boil, and when they do they are far less formidable than they have been in the recent past.

Hope [at least (dream)] one of the games to be arranged before the Lions will be Boks v ABs.

[No Quarter]

@kpkanz we're sort of arguing across each other a bit here. I've been calling for Jordan to start from the beginning of the season and have never once claimed Jordie is a better ball runner than him, which is all those stats show. The guy is all class and it's crazy he's only been given a handful of minutes to date.

At test level I'd have some concerns with him at 15, particularly his one-on-one tackling, but on the wing his talents can really shine. Clarke - Jordie - Jordan seemed pretty obvious to me after SR but instead we got Bridge and Jordie in a position that clearly does not suit his skill set.

[nostrildamus]

It is fair enough to test Jordan at wing before playing him at 15, esp against teams with dangerous runners. But on the evidence so far he deserves the wing spot more than Jordie.

[No Quarter]

@ACT-Crusader said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:

@No-Quarter said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:

@ACT-Crusader said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:

@No-Quarter I don’t think he’s a test 15 yet.

Who knows? He dominated the level down and hasn't been given a chance.

Same as Jordan. The selections this year have been absurd.

He has been given a chance. He’s started 7 tests at fullback and filled in a few more. I think there’s things he still has to develop in his game.

And I know Fozzie isn’t flavour of the month but I don’t think this years selections in a compressed test schedule have been any more “absurd” than what we have seen in previous years under other coaches.

Sorry mate but I disagree with everything you've said there. Foster selections have been completely uninspiring and there's no excuse for either playing our best players out of position or not at all regardless of the structure of the season. It's been a shit show that culminated in our first ever loss to Argentina when they were ranked fucking 10th in the world.

Jordie has played well at 15 for the ABs in the past, and was then not given a chance there after his best ever season in that position in SR. It's utterly brainless shit from the selectors.

And to be clear, I'm not claiming Jordie will be the second coming of Jesus at 15, I'm just saying to not even play him in his best position, and further to that play him on the wing ahead of others where blind fucking freddie knows he'll struggle, is absolutely absurd.

[Derpus]

the worst thing is that despite picking the shittest teams and losing 2/4 the ABs still win the fucken thing.

[nostrildamus]

@Derpus now hang on, we could have fielded shittier teams!

[Rebound]

@antipodean exactly all these decisions are doing is giving players carte blanche to spoil. I mean the Argue player was preventing the ABs from taking a quick tap, an action which is penalisable even a yellow at times

[broughie]

@Jailbreak7 He stays because we can’t get rid of him and not because of a win in one game.

[pakman]

@Victor-Meldrew said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:

@canefan said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:

@Canes4life said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:

Nice way to finish the year. That’s more like it.

Far from the finished article. But some promising signs

Really like the improvement in composure & patience in this game, particularly when things weren't going their way. Far less whooping and hooping - just got on with game. Senior players deserve a lot of the credit for that.

Really solid forward performance all-round. Backs need some serious thought. Mo'unga is just too inconsistent for me, BB's kicking didn't work out and not convinced by Goodhue at 13.

Another plus - the JB experiment has to end now.

Jack at 13? I wish.

[Billy Tell]

Not a lot to say except JB at 14 is not a long term option. Flush the dunny and wait for 2021.

[cgrant]

I wonder whether it was deliberate to kick away good possession. Maybe the tactic was "Give the ball to the Argentinian backs. They are shite, they won't know what to do with it."

[Victor Meldrew]

@Tim said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:

@Victor-Meldrew Plenty of good ball too.

That's the thing

Re-watched a bit of the game and he was given an armchair ride by Nugget and the pack. And he was still poor - not even a flat-track bully.

[pakman]

Goodhue at 13, is good defensively, runs great lines and sets his wingers up. He is wasted at 12.

Did he get any minutes at 13? I can't recall any.

Would have been interesting seeing him outside Laumape as a comparison.

[MajorPom]

A decent win for the All Black in the end, although the weaknesses of the team are still there for anybody to see. It was a right forwards shellacking make no mistake about that. Dominance in the scrum, dominance going forwards, and the entire forward pack a real nuisance for the Argies whenever they got the ball. Some serious white line fever from the AB's though, they should have been out of sight by half time, but the last 5% proved lacking time and time again.

Not to take anything away from the Argies defence. It was once again, absolutely superb. However, perhaps with the hot day, and the sheer number of tackles made, things fell apart at the end. The All Blacks option taking in the back line appeared to be abysmal, with chip kicks / cross field kicks when on the front foot. Now perhaps this was a deliberate ploy to try and get the well-drilled defence to start re-thinking themselves, and perhaps it would have worked if only the execution was somewhere above the 0.5/10 it was for the 50/50 plays.

Here the main discussion points for me

1. Cane / Savea/ Ioane our next legendary backline trio? Perhaps. Savea is an outstanding player, but I'm not sure he's an 8. I think the size game in test rugby has moved on from Savea size at 8.
2. Ioane was utterly superb. All match. Big, physical strong. It may "only" have been a second string RG team, but it was his coming of age at this level match. May his head issues be done with, he's a real build the team around player
3. Scott Barret had one of his best games, but I'm still not sold. Tuipulotu has been my main push for a while now, but he's not had a great year. Nifty try at the end though.
4. Certainly Laulala's best game that I've seen (which is probably about 4). Seriously dominant, hungry and very much so the All Black prop.
5. Smith should be NZ player of the year
6. Not sure who was the cross-field kick coach last year, but can we get him back? Man they were shit last night. They were damn near perfect last year.
7. I'm not as harsh on Richie Mo as others. He's not afraid to take on the line and the option taking I've covered above. I'd still have him at 10.
8. Our midfield is a concern. They looked bereft of ideas most of the game. I know ALB & Goodhue are excellent players, but I'm not sure the compliment each other. I'd probably prefer one with Laumape.
9. Jordie Barrett. Don't think he really looked comfortable at this level this year.
10. Beauden Barrett. He's on the plane to Japan already. May he come back the 2017 version.
11. Will Jordan. Great 15 minutes cameo, but lets not forget he was playing guys who had played 65 minutes in 29 degree heat. Fair play to him though, took his opportunities well.

And my last point. And this one is for Nisbo. Look, we NZ rugby fans have a shoddy reputation for arrogance etc already. So, why oh why when you know your coverage is beaming globally ( Marshall mentioned everywhere it was going) would you say

"We all knew the All Blacks would bounce back, but the question was always by how much".

Seriously, WTF???

[Siam]

@kpkanz said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:

@No-Quarter Looking at the stats i wouldnt call what Jordie did anything close to 'dominated'.

Will Jordan on the other hand 'dominated' super rugby this year.

Super Rugby Aotearoa 2020 Stats

Carries
Will Jordan - 88
Jordie Barrett - 83

Clean breaks
Will Jordan - 1st in competition with 15,
Jordie is not in the top 10

Defenders beaten
Will Jordan - 1st in competition with 39
Jordie - 6th with 22

Metres made
Will Jordan - 1st in competition with 724
Jordie is not in the top 10

Offloads
Will Jordan - 2nd in the competition with 9
Jordie is not in the top 10

Tries
Will Jordan - 1st in the competition with 6
Jordie is not in the top 10

In a pro sport where every team employs an analyst, and coaches refer to stats at every press conference and where all players have laptop "homework" those stats are damning.
Perceptions versus data. Not a besmirching of JB, but a solid case for inconsistent "hunch" selections

[NTA]

@Siam said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:

@kpkanz said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:

@No-Quarter Looking at the stats i wouldnt call what Jordie did anything close to 'dominated'.

Will Jordan on the other hand 'dominated' super rugby this year.

Super Rugby Aotearoa 2020 Stats

Carries
Will Jordan - 88
Jordie Barrett - 83

Clean breaks
Will Jordan - 1st in competition with 15,
Jordie is not in the top 10

Defenders beaten
Will Jordan - 1st in competition with 39
Jordie - 6th with 22

Metres made
Will Jordan - 1st in competition with 724
Jordie is not in the top 10

Offloads
Will Jordan - 2nd in the competition with 9
Jordie is not in the top 10

Tries
Will Jordan - 1st in the competition with 6
Jordie is not in the top 10

In a pro sport where every team employs an analyst, and coaches refer to stats at every press conference and where all players have laptop "homework" those stats are damning.
Perceptions versus data. Not a besmirching of JB, but a solid case for inconsistent "hunch" selections

I watched Moneyball again just yesterday...

[westcoastie]

@Siam said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:

Hate the kick pass ( unless Foster is recruiting Dusty Martin)

He would make a great 12. Fend, Kick, Strong gut running, unsure about distribution by hand, but geez he'd be a handful.

[kev]

@Victor-Meldrew that is just pattern. What you see is the 2nd is always the guy running at the line. Jacks other strength is he stays in the pattern.

[booboo]

@Donsteppa said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:

Coles on the wing early, what were the odds.

@Yeetyaah said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:

Get off the wing and do your job Coles.

It is his job

[hydro11]

@Siam said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:

@kpkanz said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:

@No-Quarter Looking at the stats i wouldnt call what Jordie did anything close to 'dominated'.

Will Jordan on the other hand 'dominated' super rugby this year.

Super Rugby Aotearoa 2020 Stats

Carries
Will Jordan - 88
Jordie Barrett - 83

Clean breaks
Will Jordan - 1st in competition with 15,
Jordie is not in the top 10

Defenders beaten
Will Jordan - 1st in competition with 39
Jordie - 6th with 22

Metres made
Will Jordan - 1st in competition with 724
Jordie is not in the top 10

Offloads
Will Jordan - 2nd in the competition with 9
Jordie is not in the top 10

Tries
Will Jordan - 1st in the competition with 6
Jordie is not in the top 10

In a pro sport where every team employs an analyst, and coaches refer to stats at every press conference and where all players have laptop "homework" those stats are damning.
Perceptions versus data. Not a besmirching of JB, but a solid case for inconsistent "hunch" selections

Jordie was injured for the first two games, then came back and won the Hurricanes the next four matches. Short memories. By all means back Jordan for 14 but Jordie was the MVP of SRA and should have been picked to start at full back.