Dan Carter hanging up his boots ..
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@no-quarter In one respect I feel you're being a little unfair to Wilkinson. He was a very good all round fly half with all the skills required across the board. The way he often played for England was not always reflective of his talent. A bit of the Rob Andrew factor there. Having said that he had nowhere near the degree of natural talent that Carter possessed, looking laboured in comparison, plus of course Carter also had pace...
I very much agree though with Carter being the GOAT 10. I didn't think I would ever see a 10 that was better all round than Barry John, but I have and feel privileged to watch him play.
@catogrande said in Dan Carter hanging up his boots ..:
@no-quarter In one respect I feel you're being a little unfair to Wilkinson. He was a very good all round fly half with all the skills required across the board. The way he often played for England was not always reflective of his talent. A bit of the Rob Andrew factor there. Having said that he had nowhere near the degree of natural talent that Carter possessed, looking laboured in comparison, plus of course Carter also had pace...
Wilkinson was a class act. Great all round game and brave as fuck on defence. Leads the pack chasing DC.
I very much agree though with Carter being the GOAT 10. I didn't think I would ever see a 10 that was better all round than Barry John, but I have and feel privileged to watch him play.
I can only go on what I saw of him against the AB's and apart from 1 game (1st Test 1971) I thought him seriously average. For me, really not in the same class as Mike Gibson & Hugo Porta from that era.
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@mn5 said in Dan Carter hanging up his boots ..:
There are not many people that I would rate higher than Carter in any aspects of being a 10. Goode I feel was superior to Carter on two counts:
- Attacking kicking game
- Pies.
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DC of course the GOAT 10. But Jonny Wilkinson coming back from injury and leading a fairly mediocre side to the 2007 RWC Final and nearly the title was extremely impressive too.
Carter was superb at:
- Attacking vision and awareness.
- Running with the ball in two hands in open play.
- Clean, efficient clearance kicks.
- Flawless defensive technique.
- Goalkicking.
- Work ethic and willingness to learn.
- He brought 100% into every team culture he was part of and was always supportive of his coaches and the other senior players in the teams he played with.
In all seven areas, I think DC was better than Wilkinson and probably better than or as good any other 10 I've seen. Maybe Fox was as a goalkicker and Beauden Barrett as good an open-field runner.
Where perhaps Wilkinson ever so slightly had the edge among the two was his sheer bloody-mindedness at times, perhaps a product of coming into an England team in the late 1990s who weren't very good. He never knew he was beaten and would always try to act against the momentum in a match and sometimes successfully.
I think it is going to be a long, long time, if ever, that we see as good a player in the AB 10 jersey as Dan Carter. It was a massive privilege to witness his career from start to finish and see almost every minute of every one of his Test appearances along the way.
@sparky said in Dan Carter hanging up his boots ..:
I think it is going to be a long, long time, if ever, that we see as good a player in the AB 10 jersey as Dan Carter. It was a massive privilege to witness his career from start to finish and see almost every minute of every one of his Test appearances along the way.
Saw Carter at a game against Wales being given a poor pass which hit the inside of his arm just above the elbow. I swear he simply let the ball roll along the inside of his arm into his left hand before kicking a 30m touch finder
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@sparky said in Dan Carter hanging up his boots ..:
I think it is going to be a long, long time, if ever, that we see as good a player in the AB 10 jersey as Dan Carter. It was a massive privilege to witness his career from start to finish and see almost every minute of every one of his Test appearances along the way.
Saw Carter at a game against Wales being given a poor pass which hit the inside of his arm just above the elbow. I swear he simply let the ball roll along the inside of his arm into his left hand before kicking a 30m touch finder
@victor-meldrew said in Dan Carter hanging up his boots ..:
@sparky said in Dan Carter hanging up his boots ..:
I think it is going to be a long, long time, if ever, that we see as good a player in the AB 10 jersey as Dan Carter. It was a massive privilege to witness his career from start to finish and see almost every minute of every one of his Test appearances along the way.
Saw Carter at a game against Wales being given a poor pass which hit the inside of his arm just above the elbow. I swear he simply let the ball roll along the inside of his arm into his left hand before kicking a 30m touch finder
Guys who have a certain freakish ability are rare and as 10s go I'd say I have seen Barry John, Carlos Spencer, Stephen Larkham (running only but so bloody good at that) and Carter. The guys who really just made time stand still. Probably Spencer was the most freakish but also more flawed than the others.
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@mn5 said in Dan Carter hanging up his boots ..:
There are not many people that I would rate higher than Carter in any aspects of being a 10. Goode I feel was superior to Carter on two counts:
- Attacking kicking game
- Pies.
@catogrande said in Dan Carter hanging up his boots ..:
@mn5 said in Dan Carter hanging up his boots ..:
There are not many people that I would rate higher than Carter in any aspects of being a 10. Goode I feel was superior to Carter on two counts:
- Attacking kicking game
- Pies.
If you hadn't put the word "kicking" in there I think the fern would have the biggest meltdown in history.
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@victor-meldrew said in Dan Carter hanging up his boots ..:
@chester-draws said in Dan Carter hanging up his boots ..:
Cruden ran onto the 2011 final with no demons (as did Beaver) and could just play his game.
I'd think Beaver had a huge number of demons to face as he was held pretty much responsible for an awful loss to the Wobbles in Hong Kong (IIRC).
Stepped up to the mark and played the game of his life that day - one of the most clear-headed players on the paddock. No wonder McCaw holds him in such high regard
I was there live and rewatched it four years later and thought it was an unremarkable Beaver performance. He didn't bottle it (yay) but they were outscored 7-3 by an otherwise pedestrian French team.
Obviously not all his fault getting ball from Ellis and given the tense moment, but there are at least 10 other guys on that paddock that defended like Banshees in that second half who deserve the credit for that win more than Beaver for one wobbly penalty and not a whole lot else.
@rotated said in Dan Carter hanging up his boots ..:
@victor-meldrew said in Dan Carter hanging up his boots ..:
@chester-draws said in Dan Carter hanging up his boots ..:
Cruden ran onto the 2011 final with no demons (as did Beaver) and could just play his game.
I'd think Beaver had a huge number of demons to face as he was held pretty much responsible for an awful loss to the Wobbles in Hong Kong (IIRC).
Stepped up to the mark and played the game of his life that day - one of the most clear-headed players on the paddock. No wonder McCaw holds him in such high regard
I was there live and rewatched it four years later and thought it was an unremarkable Beaver performance. He didn't bottle it (yay) but they were outscored 7-3 by an otherwise pedestrian French team.
Obviously not all his fault getting ball from Ellis and given the tense moment, but there are at least 10 other guys on that paddock that defended like Banshees in that second half who deserve the credit for that win more than Beaver for one wobbly penalty and not a whole lot else.
disagree - the biggest difference that Beaver made when he came on was that he calmed things down, took the ball to the line by just running straight and made his tackles. Nerves had played a massive part in that starting 15.. guys like Kaino who'd been massive all tournament looked like utter shit and were headless chickens. Which to be fair was totally understandable - the pressure they were under and the atmosphere leading into that game was off the chart (how good was the walk to the ground from town..)
He didn't need to do anything spectacular, but by coming on and almost not giving a shit it had a massive influence on those around him. -
@rotated said in Dan Carter hanging up his boots ..:
@victor-meldrew said in Dan Carter hanging up his boots ..:
@chester-draws said in Dan Carter hanging up his boots ..:
Cruden ran onto the 2011 final with no demons (as did Beaver) and could just play his game.
I'd think Beaver had a huge number of demons to face as he was held pretty much responsible for an awful loss to the Wobbles in Hong Kong (IIRC).
Stepped up to the mark and played the game of his life that day - one of the most clear-headed players on the paddock. No wonder McCaw holds him in such high regard
I was there live and rewatched it four years later and thought it was an unremarkable Beaver performance. He didn't bottle it (yay) but they were outscored 7-3 by an otherwise pedestrian French team.
Obviously not all his fault getting ball from Ellis and given the tense moment, but there are at least 10 other guys on that paddock that defended like Banshees in that second half who deserve the credit for that win more than Beaver for one wobbly penalty and not a whole lot else.
disagree - the biggest difference that Beaver made when he came on was that he calmed things down, took the ball to the line by just running straight and made his tackles. Nerves had played a massive part in that starting 15.. guys like Kaino who'd been massive all tournament looked like utter shit and were headless chickens. Which to be fair was totally understandable - the pressure they were under and the atmosphere leading into that game was off the chart (how good was the walk to the ground from town..)
He didn't need to do anything spectacular, but by coming on and almost not giving a shit it had a massive influence on those around him.@williethewaiter said in Dan Carter hanging up his boots ..:
@rotated said in Dan Carter hanging up his boots ..:
@victor-meldrew said in Dan Carter hanging up his boots ..:
@chester-draws said in Dan Carter hanging up his boots ..:
Cruden ran onto the 2011 final with no demons (as did Beaver) and could just play his game.
I'd think Beaver had a huge number of demons to face as he was held pretty much responsible for an awful loss to the Wobbles in Hong Kong (IIRC).
Stepped up to the mark and played the game of his life that day - one of the most clear-headed players on the paddock. No wonder McCaw holds him in such high regard
I was there live and rewatched it four years later and thought it was an unremarkable Beaver performance. He didn't bottle it (yay) but they were outscored 7-3 by an otherwise pedestrian French team.
Obviously not all his fault getting ball from Ellis and given the tense moment, but there are at least 10 other guys on that paddock that defended like Banshees in that second half who deserve the credit for that win more than Beaver for one wobbly penalty and not a whole lot else.
disagree - the biggest difference that Beaver made when he came on was that he calmed things down, took the ball to the line by just running straight and made his tackles. Nerves had played a massive part in that starting 15.. guys like Kaino who'd been massive all tournament looked like utter shit and were headless chickens. Which to be fair was totally understandable - the pressure they were under and the atmosphere leading into that game was off the chart (how good was the walk to the ground from town..)
He didn't need to do anything spectacular, but by coming on and almost not giving a shit it had a massive influence on those around him.I'm guessing not quite as good as the walk from the ground to town...
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@canefan said in Dan Carter hanging up his boots ..:
@mariner4life said in Dan Carter hanging up his boots ..:
@antipodean said in Dan Carter hanging up his boots ..:
@victor-meldrew said in Dan Carter hanging up his boots ..:
Not saying Beaver won the game on his own, just pointing out he had more than a few demons to conquer and did pretty well overall in the context of that game.
If we'd had a fit DC for that game, we'd have won a lot easier and they'd be no teeth marks on the back of my sofa.
If DC was fit for the final we'd have destroyed France. As it was we should've been clear at halftime but for Piri missing some easy kicks to keep the he scoreboard pressure mounting.
And dagg being a fucking hungus
I wouldn't know, I haven't watched the game since being there in 2011. I'll take your word for it
Neither, watched in a pub, sweated 3kgs out, didn't enjoy a minute of it, never seen it again.
I recall Piri trying to kick a loose ball to someone that ended badly rather than gathering it - did that even happen or is it just a random (not) memory???
@voodoo said in Dan Carter hanging up his boots ..:
@canefan said in Dan Carter hanging up his boots ..:
@mariner4life said in Dan Carter hanging up his boots ..:
@antipodean said in Dan Carter hanging up his boots ..:
@victor-meldrew said in Dan Carter hanging up his boots ..:
Not saying Beaver won the game on his own, just pointing out he had more than a few demons to conquer and did pretty well overall in the context of that game.
If we'd had a fit DC for that game, we'd have won a lot easier and they'd be no teeth marks on the back of my sofa.
If DC was fit for the final we'd have destroyed France. As it was we should've been clear at halftime but for Piri missing some easy kicks to keep the he scoreboard pressure mounting.
And dagg being a fucking hungus
I wouldn't know, I haven't watched the game since being there in 2011. I'll take your word for it
Neither, watched in a pub, sweated 3kgs out, didn't enjoy a minute of it, never seen it again.
I recall Piri trying to kick a loose ball to someone that ended badly rather than gathering it - did that even happen or is it just a random (not) memory???
Immediately after Dagg hungussed. Piri tried to keep the attack going but the two mistakes compounded, leading to their try.
I blame Dagg more.
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@rotated said in Dan Carter hanging up his boots ..:
@victor-meldrew said in Dan Carter hanging up his boots ..:
@chester-draws said in Dan Carter hanging up his boots ..:
Cruden ran onto the 2011 final with no demons (as did Beaver) and could just play his game.
I'd think Beaver had a huge number of demons to face as he was held pretty much responsible for an awful loss to the Wobbles in Hong Kong (IIRC).
Stepped up to the mark and played the game of his life that day - one of the most clear-headed players on the paddock. No wonder McCaw holds him in such high regard
I was there live and rewatched it four years later and thought it was an unremarkable Beaver performance. He didn't bottle it (yay) but they were outscored 7-3 by an otherwise pedestrian French team.
Obviously not all his fault getting ball from Ellis and given the tense moment, but there are at least 10 other guys on that paddock that defended like Banshees in that second half who deserve the credit for that win more than Beaver for one wobbly penalty and not a whole lot else.
disagree - the biggest difference that Beaver made when he came on was that he calmed things down, took the ball to the line by just running straight and made his tackles. Nerves had played a massive part in that starting 15.. guys like Kaino who'd been massive all tournament looked like utter shit and were headless chickens. Which to be fair was totally understandable - the pressure they were under and the atmosphere leading into that game was off the chart (how good was the walk to the ground from town..)
He didn't need to do anything spectacular, but by coming on and almost not giving a shit it had a massive influence on those around him.@williethewaiter said in Dan Carter hanging up his boots ..:
disagree - the biggest difference that Beaver made when he came on was that he calmed things down, took the ball to the line by just running straight and made his tackles. Nerves had played a massive part in that starting 15.. guys like Kaino who'd been massive all tournament looked like utter shit and were headless chickens. Which to be fair was totally understandable - the pressure they were under and the atmosphere leading into that game was off the chart (how good was the walk to the ground from town..)
He didn't need to do anything spectacular, but by coming on and almost not giving a shit it had a massive influence on those around him.They looked fine in the first 25 minutes, the Woodcock try was executed to precision and they were playing a good territory game. Unfortunately Weepu's injury during warm up meant they couldn't convert these.
Whatever "calming influence" he may have had at the end of first half was greatly outweighed by the overwhelming sense around the 60 minute mark (after they didn't strike back immediately after the Dusutoir try) that if we conceded any points there was no real prospect of us being able to reply in kind.
You contrast that with pretty much any ABs team in that era where the feeling was always if you kept it close going into the final 20 you could burgle it.
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@williethewaiter said in Dan Carter hanging up his boots ..:
disagree - the biggest difference that Beaver made when he came on was that he calmed things down, took the ball to the line by just running straight and made his tackles. Nerves had played a massive part in that starting 15.. guys like Kaino who'd been massive all tournament looked like utter shit and were headless chickens. Which to be fair was totally understandable - the pressure they were under and the atmosphere leading into that game was off the chart (how good was the walk to the ground from town..)
He didn't need to do anything spectacular, but by coming on and almost not giving a shit it had a massive influence on those around him.They looked fine in the first 25 minutes, the Woodcock try was executed to precision and they were playing a good territory game. Unfortunately Weepu's injury during warm up meant they couldn't convert these.
Whatever "calming influence" he may have had at the end of first half was greatly outweighed by the overwhelming sense around the 60 minute mark (after they didn't strike back immediately after the Dusutoir try) that if we conceded any points there was no real prospect of us being able to reply in kind.
You contrast that with pretty much any ABs team in that era where the feeling was always if you kept it close going into the final 20 you could burgle it.
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@canefan I thought about that clip after reading your post immediately above.
@taniwharugby said in Dan Carter hanging up his boots ..:
@canefan I thought about that clip after reading your post immediately above.
Still chokes me up even now 🥺
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DC - absolute legend who has all the plaudits / awards to go with being such a great player.
I wouldn't get too hung up about people saying he wasn't as good defensively as Jonny Wilkinson. There's a reason for that. He wasn't. Wilkinson was an extremely hard hitter who put his body on the line in every single tackle, and ultimately ended up paying the price for it.
Great kicker, runner, strategist, playmaker & a superb defender.
@booboo said in Dan Carter hanging up his boots ..:
A memory of the penalty was Kafer saying "Dan Carter will get this. He's just THAT sort of player."
Exactly. Difference between the best and truly elite. Top 2 inches.
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DC - absolute legend who has all the plaudits / awards to go with being such a great player.
I wouldn't get too hung up about people saying he wasn't as good defensively as Jonny Wilkinson. There's a reason for that. He wasn't. Wilkinson was an extremely hard hitter who put his body on the line in every single tackle, and ultimately ended up paying the price for it.
Great kicker, runner, strategist, playmaker & a superb defender.
@booboo said in Dan Carter hanging up his boots ..:
A memory of the penalty was Kafer saying "Dan Carter will get this. He's just THAT sort of player."
Exactly. Difference between the best and truly elite. Top 2 inches.
@majorrage said in Dan Carter hanging up his boots ..:
DC - absolute legend who has all the plaudits / awards to go with being such a great player.
I wouldn't get too hung up about people saying he wasn't as good defensively as Jonny Wilkinson. There's a reason for that. He wasn't. Wilkinson was an extremely hard hitter who put his body on the line in every single tackle, and ultimately ended up paying the price for it.
Great kicker, runner, strategist, playmaker & a superb defender.
@booboo said in Dan Carter hanging up his boots ..:
A memory of the penalty was Kafer saying "Dan Carter will get this. He's just THAT sort of player."
Exactly. Difference between the best and truly elite. Top 2 inches.
Meh. Not upset but ...
He may not have hit as hard Jonny,but he was excellent defensively.
Saying he wasn't as good is just incorrect.
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@majorrage said in Dan Carter hanging up his boots ..:
DC - absolute legend who has all the plaudits / awards to go with being such a great player.
I wouldn't get too hung up about people saying he wasn't as good defensively as Jonny Wilkinson. There's a reason for that. He wasn't. Wilkinson was an extremely hard hitter who put his body on the line in every single tackle, and ultimately ended up paying the price for it.
Great kicker, runner, strategist, playmaker & a superb defender.
@booboo said in Dan Carter hanging up his boots ..:
A memory of the penalty was Kafer saying "Dan Carter will get this. He's just THAT sort of player."
Exactly. Difference between the best and truly elite. Top 2 inches.
Meh. Not upset but ...
He may not have hit as hard Jonny,but he was excellent defensively.
Saying he wasn't as good is just incorrect.
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Easily the most complete and best first five-eighth I've had the privilege to witness and that in no way should diminish the value other players brought their teams.
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@booboo It's not an insult.
Carter was a genuine rugby freak, but to say he was the best ever or at least on par/better at every single facet of his game as the other great first five of his era is a bit OTT.
@majorrage said in Dan Carter hanging up his boots ..:
@booboo It's not an insult.
Carter was a genuine rugby freak, but to say he was the best ever or at least on par/better at every single facet of his game as the other great first five of his era is a bit OTT.
The point is - just because you are a bigger hitter doesn't automatically make you a better defender.
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@booboo It's not an insult.
Carter was a genuine rugby freak, but to say he was the best ever or at least on par/better at every single facet of his game as the other great first five of his era is a bit OTT.
@majorrage said in Dan Carter hanging up his boots ..:
@booboo It's not an insult.
Carter was a genuine rugby freak, but to say he was the best ever or at least on par/better at every single facet of his game as the other great first five of his era is a bit OTT.
I don't think we're really arguing, but I am of the opinion h was farking good on D. So IMO it's hard to argue Jonny was better because he was "better" on D because in my opinion DC was just as good.
I have a soft spot for Wilkinson because of the chip and chase try v us in 2002, but ... He's just not quite DC.
And DC was as good (if not better) on D.
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@majorrage said in Dan Carter hanging up his boots ..:
@booboo It's not an insult.
Carter was a genuine rugby freak, but to say he was the best ever or at least on par/better at every single facet of his game as the other great first five of his era is a bit OTT.
The point is - just because you are a bigger hitter doesn't automatically make you a better defender.
@kiwimurph said in Dan Carter hanging up his boots ..:
The point is - just because you are a bigger hitter doesn't automatically make you a better defender.
Not arguing that.
Wilkinson is a legendary defender though, it's often mentioned about him. Absolutely nothing wrong with DC defence, it was superb.
@booboo said in Dan Carter hanging up his boots ..:
@majorrage said in Dan Carter hanging up his boots ..:
@booboo It's not an insult.
Carter was a genuine rugby freak, but to say he was the best ever or at least on par/better at every single facet of his game as the other great first five of his era is a bit OTT.
I don't think we're really arguing, but I am of the opinion h was farking good on D. So IMO it's hard to argue Jonny was better because he was "better" on D because in my opinion DC was just as good.
I have a soft spot for Wilkinson because of the chip and chase try v us in 2002, but ... He's just not quite DC.
And DC was as good (if not better) on D.
Just to be clear I'm not arguing for JW as the better player. DC the better player.
As a side note though, I do think saint Jonny was hugely underrated in NZ for a long time. It was only really when he did the 2007 RWC run that I think people started to believe that the ongoing NH plaudits for him actually had some real substance.
