European Club Rugby
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If it's a red to the prop, why was it not also a red for the 12? Because it looks a lot like he chickened out of sending two players off.
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If it's a red to the prop, why was it not also a red for the 12? Because it looks a lot like he chickened out of sending two players off.
@mariner4life said in NH club rugby:
If it's a red to the prop, why was it not also a red for the 12? Because it looks a lot like he chickened out of sending two players off.
Exactly. From where I was watching, if the new law interpretation is applied, that should be two reds, or a red and a yellow. Plus, I thought the swinging arm was worse too.
Even going back to the scrumhalf held up one, I don't understand why the winger didn't get a yellow for the slap to the face of the halfie. This is going to be a bit of a shambles, I'm afraid.
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you would have to wonder if you take the 12 out, would the other have happened exactly the same to result in a RC; I reckon that way the ball carrier was moving, the prop woulda maybe hit him with his arm, similar to the 12 so in theory, woulda been sweet.
Shoulda been both with a card, not sure this has a huge amount to do with the new rules though?? Was poor technique by 2 guys that resulted in 1 guy getting knocked out, and a poor decision by the ref.
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And since when is "but he would have scored a try" a defence? Is it cool to tackle players chasing a kick now because they might score a try?
If you can't stop a player from scoring using a legal tackle, why does that mean it's a free for all? Surely it just means you don't attempt the tackle or risk facing the consequences.
@Bones said in NH club rugby:
If you can't stop a player from scoring using a legal tackle, why does that mean it's a free for all? Surely it just means you don't attempt the tackle or risk facing the consequences.
This is the key bit.
Half the arguement here is "but the only way I can stop a try is by putting my forearm through the players face so surely that makes it OK!"
Well then you don't make that tackle. You make a legal tackle & if he scores so be it. Same deal when Barrett got held up by Sexton putting him in a headlock over the line.
Rugby has increasing gone with those over the shoulder style tackles, where (as in the video) a player wraps an arm over the players shoulder & sort of clips the neck but in a way that could be legitimate. Its a hugely effective tackle at pulling back the player, but also one that regularly clips the chin, neck & slips up.
As Crucial points out, it makes short guys doing pick & goes the new 6'4 guys doing one handed offloads.
There's 2 bits here re the rule, yes it changes the game at the top level, but rugby has been losing young players because mums watching top flight rugby see concussion being more & more prevelant & head & neck injuries on the rise. So if you don't move rugby away from being "the concussion sport" it'll die at a grass roots level & we'll have to watch soccer. Rugby in UK schools ranks 15th. Behind dance. DANCE
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@mooshld said in NH club rugby:
Aki not declaring for Ireland reeks of a negotiation tactic. To squeeze the last few euros out of them that he can.
Nothing more he won't come back to NZ where he has no guarantee of anything and won't play for peanuts for Samoa.
Just his agent earning his paycheck if you ask me.
Not at all. He's signed a new contract - there isn't anything to squeeze. Player payments for test matches are fixed team amounts, there is no difference in these either. He could declare for Samoa and there would be nothing to stop him contractually.
@Pot-Hale Thats how it works wow that's weird I would have thought he would have gotten some sort of salary bump for getting selected for Ireland and it wasn"t all just match fees.
Does he have a contract now with the IRU, I didn't think he could until he was Irish qualified.
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@Pot-Hale Thats how it works wow that's weird I would have thought he would have gotten some sort of salary bump for getting selected for Ireland and it wasn"t all just match fees.
Does he have a contract now with the IRU, I didn't think he could until he was Irish qualified.
@mooshld said in NH club rugby:
@Pot-Hale Thats how it works wow that's weird I would have thought he would have gotten some sort of salary bump for getting selected for Ireland and it wasn"t all just match fees.
Does he have a contract now with the IRU, I didn't think he could until he was Irish qualified.
Correct, he's not Irish qualified and can't be on a central contract. His current contract is due to finish in June, but he wouldn't be Irish qualified until November so his playing contract is through Connacht Rugby. There are only about 15 central contracts (whereby IRFU negotiates directly and pays the player's salary and manages their playing time). These players are seen as pretty much first choice selection for the test squad. As the depth grows, the need for central contract players reduces. It was over 20 players at one stage, and then was cut drastically to 11 or 12 about 6-7 years ago as costs mushroomed. I think this is the current panel which is likely to change again before year is out:
June 2017
Jamie Heaslip (Leinster - 2017)
Donnacha Ryan (Munster - 2017)
Devin Toner (Leinster - 2017)
Andrew Trimble (Ulster - 2017)June 2018
Rob Kearney (Leinster - 2018)
Tommy Bowe (Ulster - 2018)
Rory Best (Ulster - 2018)
Peter O'Mahony (Munster - 2018)
Jared Payne (Ulster - 2018)Post-World Cup 2019
Sean O'Brien (Leinster - 2019)
Keith Earls (Munster - 2019)
Robbie Henshaw (Leinster - 2019)
Johnny Sexton (Leinster - 2019)
Cian Healy (Leinster - 2019)
Conor Murray (Munster - 2019)
Jack McGrath (Leinster - 2019)To quote an Irish rugby agent:
"If you are a nationally contracted player, playing in the national team, you are not available for a lot of games. So [it comes down to] what value your province puts on you to what value the national team puts on you.
"If the national team don't want to contract you, then the province has a value they can pay to. 'Well you are worth this (much) to us because you'll play 18 games for us as opposed to 26 (in total)'."
A central contract player may only play in 8 league games, 6-9 European games, 5 Six Nations, 3 June tests and 3 November tests - up to 26 in total.
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@Frye said in NH club rugby:
If you have to sprint to get to the contest zone then you aren't going to be able to effectively contest against an opponent who has has had time to slow down, and maximised their vertical jump.
Coaches are going to have to stress to their players that if they are in Pisi's position, then they need to be holding off for a split second, to tackle the jumper as they hit the deck. (Done correctly this is still a good turnover opportunity).
Spear tackles are red cards, and the consequences of these incidents really are at a similar level.
The 'victim' was sprinting to the contest zone and had to jump from some distance out to get above Pisi. It's not like he was under the ball and did a straight up vertical jump and Pisi came through and took him out.
As for this whole victim was trying to get the ball fair and square stuff, so too was Pisi, he just didn't jump high enough and at the last moment ducked his head from the impact.
@B
@Nepia said in NH club rugby:
@Frye said in NH club rugby:
If you have to sprint to get to the contest zone then you aren't going to be able to effectively contest against an opponent who has has had time to slow down, and maximised their vertical jump.
Coaches are going to have to stress to their players that if they are in Pisi's position, then they need to be holding off for a split second, to tackle the jumper as they hit the deck. (Done correctly this is still a good turnover opportunity).
Spear tackles are red cards, and the consequences of these incidents really are at a similar level.The 'victim' was sprinting to the contest zone and had to jump from some distance out to get above Pisi. It's not like he was under the ball and did a straight up vertical jump and Pisi came through and took him out.
As for this whole victim was trying to get the ball fair and square stuff, so too was Pisi, he just didn't jump high enough and at the last moment ducked his head from the impact.
@BDisagree about the opponent. He gave himself time to transfer the horizontal energy into vertical energy. In high jump it's called the "gather" portion, that converts the momentum from the run to the jump. Pisi didn't do this which meant he didn't get off the ground much at all. He compromised his "gather" so that he would get to the contest sooner. A (micro?) decision that sent his opponent somersaulting.
These are decisions that can be trained out of players.
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Both Richard Barrington and Brad Barritt have been cited.
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@MajorRage said in NH club rugby:
The sanction, for punching a bloke in the face off the ball, is the same for not jumping high enough to catch a ball.
No it's not. Pisi got sanctioned for recklessly creating the scenario where the guy actually going for the ball ended up in a very dangerous position. It's got nothing at all to do with how high he jumped. That's like saying a guy getting a red for a shoulder charge got carded for attempting a tackle, it's not his fault the tacklee didn't make himself hit the guys arms first is it?
@Bones ok, to step back for a second.
What do you think Pisi was trying to do? And why was it worthy of a red card?
Do you think at any point he was trying to get the ball? Or do you think, he just ran into him for the hell of it without any due care for the rules or the player? You seem to be suggesting the latter, which is why this has reverted to name calling.
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@Bones ok, to step back for a second.
What do you think Pisi was trying to do? And why was it worthy of a red card?
Do you think at any point he was trying to get the ball? Or do you think, he just ran into him for the hell of it without any due care for the rules or the player? You seem to be suggesting the latter, which is why this has reverted to name calling.
@MajorRage
Not Bones obv, but for me he was chasing the ball, twigged he lost & did a little skip jump to make it look OK & aimed to have a collision with the player (with Pisi taking it on the shoulder & back) to stop the catcher going 20m up field after catching it.
IE he thought he had done just enough to not get pinged & stop the catcher going on a run. And that was his intention from the second he lost the race to the ball.
Same way lazy runners are not really trying to get out of the way, or players locking a ball into a ruck will take a penalty rather than roll away & give quick (try scoring) ball at times.
It was worthy of a red because it was at best careless & at worst cynical and it put another player at risk of serious injury. If you want you can throw in once the collision happened he covered his head & did zero to mitigate the players landing
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@mooshld said in NH club rugby:
@Pot-Hale Thats how it works wow that's weird I would have thought he would have gotten some sort of salary bump for getting selected for Ireland and it wasn"t all just match fees.
Does he have a contract now with the IRU, I didn't think he could until he was Irish qualified.
Correct, he's not Irish qualified and can't be on a central contract. His current contract is due to finish in June, but he wouldn't be Irish qualified until November so his playing contract is through Connacht Rugby. There are only about 15 central contracts (whereby IRFU negotiates directly and pays the player's salary and manages their playing time). These players are seen as pretty much first choice selection for the test squad. As the depth grows, the need for central contract players reduces. It was over 20 players at one stage, and then was cut drastically to 11 or 12 about 6-7 years ago as costs mushroomed. I think this is the current panel which is likely to change again before year is out:
June 2017
Jamie Heaslip (Leinster - 2017)
Donnacha Ryan (Munster - 2017)
Devin Toner (Leinster - 2017)
Andrew Trimble (Ulster - 2017)June 2018
Rob Kearney (Leinster - 2018)
Tommy Bowe (Ulster - 2018)
Rory Best (Ulster - 2018)
Peter O'Mahony (Munster - 2018)
Jared Payne (Ulster - 2018)Post-World Cup 2019
Sean O'Brien (Leinster - 2019)
Keith Earls (Munster - 2019)
Robbie Henshaw (Leinster - 2019)
Johnny Sexton (Leinster - 2019)
Cian Healy (Leinster - 2019)
Conor Murray (Munster - 2019)
Jack McGrath (Leinster - 2019)To quote an Irish rugby agent:
"If you are a nationally contracted player, playing in the national team, you are not available for a lot of games. So [it comes down to] what value your province puts on you to what value the national team puts on you.
"If the national team don't want to contract you, then the province has a value they can pay to. 'Well you are worth this (much) to us because you'll play 18 games for us as opposed to 26 (in total)'."
A central contract player may only play in 8 league games, 6-9 European games, 5 Six Nations, 3 June tests and 3 November tests - up to 26 in total.
@Pot-Hale said in NH club rugby:
@mooshld said in NH club rugby:
@Pot-Hale Thats how it works wow that's weird I would have thought he would have gotten some sort of salary bump for getting selected for Ireland and it wasn"t all just match fees.
Does he have a contract now with the IRU, I didn't think he could until he was Irish qualified.
Correct, he's not Irish qualified and can't be on a central contract. His current contract is due to finish in June, but he wouldn't be Irish qualified until November so his playing contract is through Connacht Rugby. There are only about 15 central contracts (whereby IRFU negotiates directly and pays the player's salary and manages their playing time). These players are seen as pretty much first choice selection for the test squad. As the depth grows, the need for central contract players reduces. It was over 20 players at one stage, and then was cut drastically to 11 or 12 about 6-7 years ago as costs mushroomed. I think this is the current panel which is likely to change again before year is out:
June 2017
Jamie Heaslip (Leinster - 2017)
Donnacha Ryan (Munster - 2017)
Devin Toner (Leinster - 2017)
Andrew Trimble (Ulster - 2017)June 2018
Rob Kearney (Leinster - 2018)
Tommy Bowe (Ulster - 2018)
Rory Best (Ulster - 2018)
Peter O'Mahony (Munster - 2018)
Jared Payne (Ulster - 2018)Post-World Cup 2019
Sean O'Brien (Leinster - 2019)
Keith Earls (Munster - 2019)
Robbie Henshaw (Leinster - 2019)
Johnny Sexton (Leinster - 2019)
Cian Healy (Leinster - 2019)
Conor Murray (Munster - 2019)
Jack McGrath (Leinster - 2019)To quote an Irish rugby agent:
"If you are a nationally contracted player, playing in the national team, you are not available for a lot of games. So [it comes down to] what value your province puts on you to what value the national team puts on you.
"If the national team don't want to contract you, then the province has a value they can pay to. 'Well you are worth this (much) to us because you'll play 18 games for us as opposed to 26 (in total)'."
A central contract player may only play in 8 league games, 6-9 European games, 5 Six Nations, 3 June tests and 3 November tests - up to 26 in total.
Thanks for the great insight!
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Both Richard Barrington and Brad Barritt have been cited.
@Stargazer said in NH club rugby:
Both Richard Barrington and Brad Barritt have been cited.
I felt a bit sorry for Barrington. To me it looked as though he was lining Parling up for a front on tackle when Barrit's high tackle brought Parling down and forward that much quicker and Barrington just couldn't react in time. Clumsy at most. It wouldn't have surprised me if the tackle didn't even get looked at if Parling hadn't been KO'd.
Barrit's tackle was worse IMO although not as damaging to Parling.
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In other (unconfirmed) news: according to L'Equipe, Clermont considers signing Stephen Brett as injury replacement player for injured first-five Patricio Fernandez (out for 10 weeks), and possibly also to replace Camille Lopez if the latter is named in the French team for the 6 Nations. Brett now plays for Narbonne in the Pro D2 competition.
@Stargazer said in NH club rugby:
In other (unconfirmed) news: according to L'Equipe, Clermont considers signing Stephen Brett as injury replacement player for injured first-five Patricio Fernandez (out for 10 weeks), and possibly also to replace Camille Lopez if the latter is named in the French team for the 6 Nations. Brett now plays for Narbonne in the Pro D2 competition.
Confirmed: Stephen Brett has been signed for an initial period of 3 months. He's already training with the Clermont squad.
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Both Richard Barrington and Brad Barritt have been cited.
@Stargazer said in NH club rugby:
Both Richard Barrington and Brad Barritt have been cited.
Barritt suspended for three weeks; no punishment for Barrington (not considered guilty of foul play).
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any sanction for the ref who incorrectly RCd Barrington then?
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@Stargazer said in NH club rugby:
Both Richard Barrington and Brad Barritt have been cited.
Barritt suspended for three weeks; no punishment for Barrington (not considered guilty of foul play).
@Stargazer said in NH club rugby:
@Stargazer said in NH club rugby:
Both Richard Barrington and Brad Barritt have been cited.
Barritt suspended for three weeks; no punishment for Barrington (not considered guilty of foul play).
This really is astounding. Now, personally, this looks completely the correct decision.
However, either i have not correctly interpreted the latest guidelines, or the panel have just completely ignored them.
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@MajorRage
Not Bones obv, but for me he was chasing the ball, twigged he lost & did a little skip jump to make it look OK & aimed to have a collision with the player (with Pisi taking it on the shoulder & back) to stop the catcher going 20m up field after catching it.
IE he thought he had done just enough to not get pinged & stop the catcher going on a run. And that was his intention from the second he lost the race to the ball.
Same way lazy runners are not really trying to get out of the way, or players locking a ball into a ruck will take a penalty rather than roll away & give quick (try scoring) ball at times.
It was worthy of a red because it was at best careless & at worst cynical and it put another player at risk of serious injury. If you want you can throw in once the collision happened he covered his head & did zero to mitigate the players landing
@gollum @Bones Thanks, I see what you guys are thinking, but we're going to have to agree to disagree - and thats fine.
I just can't fathom a player intentionally having a collision with a guy in the air when they know under current sanctions it's a red card. Hence, why I think the comparison of lazy runners / holding on in a ruck isn't relevant.
As for the Barritt / Barrington case - I think the end result from the judiciary is fine. But it does get you wondering how it can be that a guy was red carded the way he was.
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@Stargazer said in NH club rugby:
@Stargazer said in NH club rugby:
Both Richard Barrington and Brad Barritt have been cited.
Barritt suspended for three weeks; no punishment for Barrington (not considered guilty of foul play).
This really is astounding. Now, personally, this looks completely the correct decision.
However, either i have not correctly interpreted the latest guidelines, or the panel have just completely ignored them.
@mariner4life said in NH club rugby:
@Stargazer said in NH club rugby:
@Stargazer said in NH club rugby:
Both Richard Barrington and Brad Barritt have been cited.
Barritt suspended for three weeks; no punishment for Barrington (not considered guilty of foul play).
This really is astounding. Now, personally, this looks completely the correct decision.
However, either i have not correctly interpreted the latest guidelines, or the panel have just completely ignored them.
The discipline panel seem to be as confused as everyone about this. From my reading of the guidelines Barritt made the initial head contact causing injury and should have been RC'd but Barrington was careless irregardless of what Barritt did and deserved a YC.
If you watch the video from the side angle Barrington was already lined up at chin level before Barritt clocked Parling.
The argument that as second man he is coached to target the ball is actually the reason for the risk. If that is the defensive coaching then it needs to change or more and more second defenders will find themselves at the mercy of a decision for unintended head contact.On a slightly different note I read someone on the rugbyrefs site put up the idea of a colored hoop across the jersey from armpit to nipple (roughly). Tackle (or line up) below this line and you are not to blame. Above the line is RC, within the line means you take the responsibility to get it right and not have head contact.
Sounds like a reasonable idea except I can't see how the ref will be able to spot the black hoop on an All Black jersey
#nosilverplease
