Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..)
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@bones said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@pakman yeah time is on his side and it's pretty easy to forget how long similar players like Savea, So'oialo took to find their feet at test level, while looking like stars in super rugby.
second year syndrome is a thing. He had an average Super season, but showed enough towards the end to scrape into the ABs. Next year will be critical for his development - go well there, adn hopefully transfer to the Test arena.
Sotutu's got athleticism and pace that I haven't seen from Jacobsen yet - I'd be working with him on it, to accelerate getting him to the level we want from him.
@nzzp said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@bones said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@pakman yeah time is on his side and it's pretty easy to forget how long similar players like Savea, So'oialo took to find their feet at test level, while looking like stars in super rugby.
second year syndrome is a thing. He had an average Super season, but showed enough towards the end to scrape into the ABs. Next year will be critical for his development - go well there, adn hopefully transfer to the Test arena.
Sotutu's got athleticism and pace that I haven't seen from Jacobsen yet - I'd be working with him on it, to accelerate getting him to the level we want from him.
I agree, I haven't seen the same level of speed from Jacobson yet but perhaps that was because of the way the games played out...
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@nzzp said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@bones said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@pakman yeah time is on his side and it's pretty easy to forget how long similar players like Savea, So'oialo took to find their feet at test level, while looking like stars in super rugby.
second year syndrome is a thing. He had an average Super season, but showed enough towards the end to scrape into the ABs. Next year will be critical for his development - go well there, adn hopefully transfer to the Test arena.
Sotutu's got athleticism and pace that I haven't seen from Jacobsen yet - I'd be working with him on it, to accelerate getting him to the level we want from him.
I agree, I haven't seen the same level of speed from Jacobson yet but perhaps that was because of the way the games played out...
@nostrildamus said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@nzzp said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@bones said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@pakman yeah time is on his side and it's pretty easy to forget how long similar players like Savea, So'oialo took to find their feet at test level, while looking like stars in super rugby.
second year syndrome is a thing. He had an average Super season, but showed enough towards the end to scrape into the ABs. Next year will be critical for his development - go well there, adn hopefully transfer to the Test arena.
Sotutu's got athleticism and pace that I haven't seen from Jacobsen yet - I'd be working with him on it, to accelerate getting him to the level we want from him.
I agree, I haven't seen the same level of speed from Jacobson yet but perhaps that was because of the way the games played out...
To be clear, I really rate Jacobsen as well. Getting our balance is the challenge, but there's plenty of raw material to work with
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@nzzp said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@bones said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@pakman yeah time is on his side and it's pretty easy to forget how long similar players like Savea, So'oialo took to find their feet at test level, while looking like stars in super rugby.
second year syndrome is a thing. He had an average Super season, but showed enough towards the end to scrape into the ABs. Next year will be critical for his development - go well there, adn hopefully transfer to the Test arena.
Sotutu's got athleticism and pace that I haven't seen from Jacobsen yet - I'd be working with him on it, to accelerate getting him to the level we want from him.
I agree, I haven't seen the same level of speed from Jacobson yet but perhaps that was because of the way the games played out...
@nostrildamus said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@nzzp said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@bones said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@pakman yeah time is on his side and it's pretty easy to forget how long similar players like Savea, So'oialo took to find their feet at test level, while looking like stars in super rugby.
second year syndrome is a thing. He had an average Super season, but showed enough towards the end to scrape into the ABs. Next year will be critical for his development - go well there, adn hopefully transfer to the Test arena.
Sotutu's got athleticism and pace that I haven't seen from Jacobsen yet - I'd be working with him on it, to accelerate getting him to the level we want from him.
I agree, I haven't seen the same level of speed from Jacobson yet but perhaps that was because of the way the games played out...
and not the same level of physicality out of sotutu
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@nostrildamus said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@nzzp said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@bones said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@pakman yeah time is on his side and it's pretty easy to forget how long similar players like Savea, So'oialo took to find their feet at test level, while looking like stars in super rugby.
second year syndrome is a thing. He had an average Super season, but showed enough towards the end to scrape into the ABs. Next year will be critical for his development - go well there, adn hopefully transfer to the Test arena.
Sotutu's got athleticism and pace that I haven't seen from Jacobsen yet - I'd be working with him on it, to accelerate getting him to the level we want from him.
I agree, I haven't seen the same level of speed from Jacobson yet but perhaps that was because of the way the games played out...
and not the same level of physicality out of sotutu
@ploughboy said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@nostrildamus said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@nzzp said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@bones said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@pakman yeah time is on his side and it's pretty easy to forget how long similar players like Savea, So'oialo took to find their feet at test level, while looking like stars in super rugby.
second year syndrome is a thing. He had an average Super season, but showed enough towards the end to scrape into the ABs. Next year will be critical for his development - go well there, adn hopefully transfer to the Test arena.
Sotutu's got athleticism and pace that I haven't seen from Jacobsen yet - I'd be working with him on it, to accelerate getting him to the level we want from him.
I agree, I haven't seen the same level of speed from Jacobson yet but perhaps that was because of the way the games played out...
and not the same level of physicality out of sotutu
true. I've seen some physicality but not nearly as much as I have from Jacobson. I rate both by the way, just feel Sotutu is potentially more athletic, less hard-hitting, but currently not playing his best. Not sure why. At 8 I'd prefer Jacobson to Savea, and Sotutu to Savea IF Sotutu is in form.
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@nostrildamus said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@nzzp said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@bones said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@pakman yeah time is on his side and it's pretty easy to forget how long similar players like Savea, So'oialo took to find their feet at test level, while looking like stars in super rugby.
second year syndrome is a thing. He had an average Super season, but showed enough towards the end to scrape into the ABs. Next year will be critical for his development - go well there, adn hopefully transfer to the Test arena.
Sotutu's got athleticism and pace that I haven't seen from Jacobsen yet - I'd be working with him on it, to accelerate getting him to the level we want from him.
I agree, I haven't seen the same level of speed from Jacobson yet but perhaps that was because of the way the games played out...
To be clear, I really rate Jacobsen as well. Getting our balance is the challenge, but there's plenty of raw material to work with
@nzzp said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@nostrildamus said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@nzzp said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@bones said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@pakman yeah time is on his side and it's pretty easy to forget how long similar players like Savea, So'oialo took to find their feet at test level, while looking like stars in super rugby.
second year syndrome is a thing. He had an average Super season, but showed enough towards the end to scrape into the ABs. Next year will be critical for his development - go well there, adn hopefully transfer to the Test arena.
Sotutu's got athleticism and pace that I haven't seen from Jacobsen yet - I'd be working with him on it, to accelerate getting him to the level we want from him.
I agree, I haven't seen the same level of speed from Jacobson yet but perhaps that was because of the way the games played out...
To be clear, I really rate Jacobsen as well. Getting our balance is the challenge, but there's plenty of raw material to work with
Yep, and I have zero faith in the current panel maximising the talent and finding the right balance.
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@bones said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@pakman yeah time is on his side and it's pretty easy to forget how long similar players like Savea, So'oialo took to find their feet at test level, while looking like stars in super rugby.
second year syndrome is a thing. He had an average Super season, but showed enough towards the end to scrape into the ABs. Next year will be critical for his development - go well there, adn hopefully transfer to the Test arena.
Sotutu's got athleticism and pace that I haven't seen from Jacobsen yet - I'd be working with him on it, to accelerate getting him to the level we want from him.
@nzzp said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@bones said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@pakman yeah time is on his side and it's pretty easy to forget how long similar players like Savea, So'oialo took to find their feet at test level, while looking like stars in super rugby.
second year syndrome is a thing. He had an average Super season, but showed enough towards the end to scrape into the ABs. Next year will be critical for his development - go well there, adn hopefully transfer to the Test arena.
Sotutu's got athleticism and pace that I haven't seen from Jacobsen yet - I'd be working with him on it, to accelerate getting him to the level we want from him.
Sotutu is excellent in lineouts, and has superb passing skills.
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@pakman said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@shark said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
Agree with this long winded post with regards to lack of balance, sectorial pig-rootery and guys being shoe-horned in.
I think we all know I believe Savea is our best 7, including when Cane is available. He's certainly not an international 8. And if you believe he's not good enough defensively at 7 then he's far from an 8, and probably not even in the 23. But I'd have him as my 7 as I value highly his skills over the ball and as a link man. I don't see Papali'i as a 7 any more than the likes of Blackadder, but at the moment he's a fantastic utility loosie.
At 8 I'm starting to like Jacobson, but I also think they should invest in Papali'i getting a crack there. I've gone off Sotutu and was never much of a Ioane fan although credit to his improvement at 6. I'll be interested to see if Grace comes back strongly next year with some time off now to build into it. But Jacobson appears our best option here.
At 6 I think Frizzel has had plenty of opportunity and hasnt converted. I had high hopes for Fifita but he's now goooone. I'm also keener on Papali'i here than 7. Ioane seems to have done enough to hold this spot though and offers the requisite height which few if any other candidates have. Blackadder is another who can be considered here.
So my current trio is Jasobsen, Savea and Ioane with Papali'i off the bench.
At Super rugby level Sotutu was a stand out 8. He has an X factor, which I can’t say about Jacobson, and in style is a little like a bigger version of Ardie.
I hope they persevere with him at test level, because he has the potential to become a world class 8.
Jacobsen has very similar attributes to Papali'i. Fast, strong in contact, always around the ball and he's a natural leader, being a former 2017 NZ-U20 captain.
He seems made for test rugby, tireless worker & doesn't ever go missing in matches unlike Sotutu.
Jacobson has great fine skills. Off loads and line running. He also is very physical in the tackle and clean out. I rate him highly at 6 or 8. His head knocks have held him back a bit. I think he has a solid chance at the 6 jersey too.
Sotutu, Obviously bigger, probably has better fine skills and slightly more dynamic. But has had an average year. If Sotutu is at potential, he is ahead of jacobson at 8, but right now he is not. Had good game for counties but nothing special
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@nzzp said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@bones said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@pakman yeah time is on his side and it's pretty easy to forget how long similar players like Savea, So'oialo took to find their feet at test level, while looking like stars in super rugby.
second year syndrome is a thing. He had an average Super season, but showed enough towards the end to scrape into the ABs. Next year will be critical for his development - go well there, adn hopefully transfer to the Test arena.
Sotutu's got athleticism and pace that I haven't seen from Jacobsen yet - I'd be working with him on it, to accelerate getting him to the level we want from him.
Sotutu is excellent in lineouts, and has superb passing skills.
@pakman said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
Sotutu is excellent in lineouts, and has superb passing skills.
The problem has been that Sotutu sometimes doesn't pass when he should (for example, ignoring BB right before HT vs Fiji). Jacobson has always been used in the lineout in any team he has played for.
We should just be happy that we have some depth in the loose forwards, and there are options.
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@pakman said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
Sotutu is excellent in lineouts, and has superb passing skills.
The problem has been that Sotutu sometimes doesn't pass when he should (for example, ignoring BB right before HT vs Fiji). Jacobson has always been used in the lineout in any team he has played for.
We should just be happy that we have some depth in the loose forwards, and there are options.
@bovidae said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
We should just be happy that we have some depth in the loose forwards, and there are options.
^^^ This! Hansen fiddling around trying and failing to find a decent Test 6 (or balanced loose forward trio) was painful. Having a couple of decent contenders in each position now is bloody magic.
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Jacobson has great fine skills. Off loads and line running. He also is very physical in the tackle and clean out. I rate him highly at 6 or 8. His head knocks have held him back a bit. I think he has a solid chance at the 6 jersey too.
Sotutu, Obviously bigger, probably has better fine skills and slightly more dynamic. But has had an average year. If Sotutu is at potential, he is ahead of jacobson at 8, but right now he is not. Had good game for counties but nothing special
@muddyriver said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
Sotutu, Obviously bigger,
Jacobson is 1kg heavier than Sotutu according to Wikipedia weights.
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@muddyriver said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
Sotutu, Obviously bigger,
Jacobson is 1kg heavier than Sotutu according to Wikipedia weights.
@frank said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@muddyriver said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
Sotutu, Obviously bigger,
Jacobson is 1kg heavier than Sotutu according to Wikipedia weights.
Ardie is only 3cm shorter than Luke according to Wikipedia. Hah - just checekd All Blacks- Ardie is only 1 cm shorter htan Luke, and 2cm shorter than the Hos! Oh, my sides
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@muddyriver said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
Sotutu, Obviously bigger,
Jacobson is 1kg heavier than Sotutu according to Wikipedia weights.
@frank said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@muddyriver said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
Sotutu, Obviously bigger,
Jacobson is 1kg heavier than Sotutu according to Wikipedia weights.
Sotutus weight there is likely old (when he first played for Auckland/U20s) . Wikipedia isn't reliable for weight.
Youre better off going off the ABs or Blues site. I think he's about 116kg from memory.
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@frank said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@muddyriver said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
Sotutu, Obviously bigger,
Jacobson is 1kg heavier than Sotutu according to Wikipedia weights.
Sotutus weight there is likely old (when he first played for Auckland/U20s) . Wikipedia isn't reliable for weight.
Youre better off going off the ABs or Blues site. I think he's about 116kg from memory.
@bobily2 said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
Youre better off going off the ABs or Blues site. I think he's about 116kg from memory.
Sotutu
Blues site - 106kg
https://blues.rugby/players/hoskins-sotutu/All Blacks site - 106kg
https://www.allblacks.com/playerprofiles/hoskins-sotutu/Jacobson
Chiefs site - 107kg
https://www.chiefs.co.nz/player/luke-jacobsonAll Blacks site - 107kg
https://www.allblacks.com/playerprofiles/luke-jacobson/You're welcome.
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@bobily2 said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
Youre better off going off the ABs or Blues site. I think he's about 116kg from memory.
Sotutu
Blues site - 106kg
https://blues.rugby/players/hoskins-sotutu/All Blacks site - 106kg
https://www.allblacks.com/playerprofiles/hoskins-sotutu/Jacobson
Chiefs site - 107kg
https://www.chiefs.co.nz/player/luke-jacobsonAll Blacks site - 107kg
https://www.allblacks.com/playerprofiles/luke-jacobson/You're welcome.
@frank said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@bobily2 said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
Youre better off going off the ABs or Blues site. I think he's about 116kg from memory.
Sotutu
Blues site - 106kg
https://blues.rugby/players/hoskins-sotutu/All Blacks site - 106kg
https://www.allblacks.com/playerprofiles/hoskins-sotutu/Jacobson
Chiefs site - 107kg
https://www.chiefs.co.nz/player/luke-jacobsonAll Blacks site - 107kg
https://www.allblacks.com/playerprofiles/luke-jacobson/You're welcome.
He's definitely been listed as 116kg before, so msybe they've slimmed him down a lot.
Hoskins Sotutu DOB: 12/07/98 Position: Loose forward Mitre 10 Cup Team: Auckland The scoop: Although just 20-years-old, dynamic loose forward Hoskins Sotutu has already tasted plenty of success in his burgeoning rugby career. In 2017, Sotutu was a vital cog in Auckland’s victory at the Jock Hobbs Under 19 tournament before helping the Blues to the Brisbane Tens title in early 2018. The **116kg** powerhouse then played a vital role in Auckland’s memorable 2018 Mitre 10 Cup Premiership campaign. Blues fans will be hoping that Sotutu’s golden touchhttps://www.allblacks.com/news/meet-the-blues-class-of-2019/
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@frank said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@bobily2 said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
Youre better off going off the ABs or Blues site. I think he's about 116kg from memory.
Sotutu
Blues site - 106kg
https://blues.rugby/players/hoskins-sotutu/All Blacks site - 106kg
https://www.allblacks.com/playerprofiles/hoskins-sotutu/Jacobson
Chiefs site - 107kg
https://www.chiefs.co.nz/player/luke-jacobsonAll Blacks site - 107kg
https://www.allblacks.com/playerprofiles/luke-jacobson/You're welcome.
He's definitely been listed as 116kg before, so msybe they've slimmed him down a lot.
Hoskins Sotutu DOB: 12/07/98 Position: Loose forward Mitre 10 Cup Team: Auckland The scoop: Although just 20-years-old, dynamic loose forward Hoskins Sotutu has already tasted plenty of success in his burgeoning rugby career. In 2017, Sotutu was a vital cog in Auckland’s victory at the Jock Hobbs Under 19 tournament before helping the Blues to the Brisbane Tens title in early 2018. The **116kg** powerhouse then played a vital role in Auckland’s memorable 2018 Mitre 10 Cup Premiership campaign. Blues fans will be hoping that Sotutu’s golden touchhttps://www.allblacks.com/news/meet-the-blues-class-of-2019/
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Jacobson plays as if he is considerably heavier, I'll go with that. As I said before, I don't think loose forwards and 8 are the issue.
Actually I was just thinking what of Foster's selections would I still have issue with...seems to me he is edging more to the general feeling on here, A Ioane at 6, Paps, R Ioane on the wing, Havili at 12, but still seems to be loyal to Bower, Dmac, Bridge and Savea at 8 and will still try to play JB at wing when no one is looking.IMO most ferners seem to agree on Richie at 10, don't have an issue with Reece, or the midfield, the locks (well we don't have much choice there)... perhaps the big debate is still at 15 and whether DMac fits in the 15/23 now.
But I'm still not convinced on the Foster team tactics. Or the way the bench is used.
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@pakman said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
Sotutu is excellent in lineouts, and has superb passing skills.
The problem has been that Sotutu sometimes doesn't pass when he should (for example, ignoring BB right before HT vs Fiji). Jacobson has always been used in the lineout in any team he has played for.
We should just be happy that we have some depth in the loose forwards, and there are options.
@bovidae said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@pakman said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
Sotutu is excellent in lineouts, and has superb passing skills.
The problem has been that Sotutu sometimes doesn't pass when he should (for example, ignoring BB right before HT vs Fiji). Jacobson has always been used in the lineout in any team he has played for.
We should just be happy that we have some depth in the loose forwards, and there are options.
Agree , I think Ardie is miles better than Sotutu when it comes to passing/ decision making from the base of the scrum.
