Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc
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@derpus said in Foster signs 2 year extension:
@donsteppa Not sure what Foster has done to deserve the lofty title of 'not a bad coach'. Considering he coaches by far the best Rugby team in the world.
A comfortable Bledisloe series win (two matches of which were at Eden Park with NZ refs)? You'd fucken hope that was the bare minimum expectation.
I'd love a re-match with Quade, Kerevi, McMahon and some of the European boys available.
Haha, you had a game with Kerevi and he didn't make much difference. McMahon didn't blow me away last night when he came on.... If you get your "European boys" back in this theoretical situation do the ABs get all their best players?
@tj Sure.
It's pretty clear the difference in quality between our best and next best is much greater than for the ABs. Quade down to Noah, for example.
I think we'd be much more likely to give you a competitive game if we had guys like Latu, Arnold, Skelton, McMahon, Kerevi, Quade etc etc all available at the same time.
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Sucked in, non-Chiefs fans...
In all seriousness, Foster isn't a bad coach, I'm just still not sure if he can develop a squad to consistently high performances.
I will be happy to be wrong though, so here's hoping for the three knockout games in 2023. :crossed_fingers: (And also for no injuries to Jordie...)
@donsteppa said in Foster signs 2 year extension:
Sucked in, non-Chiefs fans...
In all seriousness, Foster isn't a bad coach, I'm just still not sure if he can develop a squad to consistently high performances.
I will be happy to be wrong though, so here's hoping for the three knockout games in 2023. :crossed_fingers: (And also for no injuries to Jordie...)
No way he should've been re signed until the end of this tour, but too late now. Next RWC cycle will be our chance, Frances will win this one
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@derpus said in Foster signs 2 year extension:
@donsteppa Not sure what Foster has done to deserve the lofty title of 'not a bad coach'. Considering he coaches by far the best Rugby team in the world.
A comfortable Bledisloe series win (two matches of which were at Eden Park with NZ refs)? You'd fucken hope that was the bare minimum expectation.
I'd love a re-match with Quade, Kerevi, McMahon and some of the European boys available.
Because all of those you've mentioned have a track record of Bledisloe wins..?
@antipodean well - exactly. Havn't won in 20 years, under strength and at Eden Park? hardly something to award a coach 2 more years on the back of.
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@donsteppa said in Foster signs 2 year extension:
Sucked in, non-Chiefs fans...
In all seriousness, Foster isn't a bad coach, I'm just still not sure if he can develop a squad to consistently high performances.
I will be happy to be wrong though, so here's hoping for the three knockout games in 2023. :crossed_fingers: (And also for no injuries to Jordie...)
No way he should've been re signed until the end of this tour, but too late now. Next RWC cycle will be our chance, Frances will win this one
@machpants said in Foster signs 2 year extension:
@donsteppa said in Foster signs 2 year extension:
Sucked in, non-Chiefs fans...
In all seriousness, Foster isn't a bad coach, I'm just still not sure if he can develop a squad to consistently high performances.
I will be happy to be wrong though, so here's hoping for the three knockout games in 2023. :crossed_fingers: (And also for no injuries to Jordie...)
No way he should've been re signed until the end of this tour, but too late now. Next RWC cycle will be our chance, Frances will win this one
I think Australia could get there if they continue there upwards trajectory. Kerevi and Cooper coming back have made a big difference. With Skelton and Arnold they definitely have the size to compete with the best packs - if Rennie can get them humming, they'll be a force.
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Sucked in, non-Chiefs fans...
In all seriousness, Foster isn't a bad coach, I'm just still not sure if he can develop a squad to consistently high performances.
I will be happy to be wrong though, so here's hoping for the three knockout games in 2023. :crossed_fingers: (And also for no injuries to Jordie...)
@donsteppa Tbf we were lacking so much leadership once we lost Cane, Whitelock, Coles and Aaron Smith. Without leadership and when you are also lacking experience in certain positions, there will be inconsistency in performance. You know you are in trouble when Ardie Savea is widely accepted as being the best choice for captain.
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Well we have always been told with our cattle anyone could coach the ABs....I think Foster is proving it ain't that easy.
@Derpus so after all your super negative shit during all the AB v Wob tests and how.much of a waste of time they were, now it will be a good idea?
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Fancy losing a test by 2 points and falling just short of winning 5 tests in 5 weeks on Australian soil and being told you’re not good enough, you are hopeless. Because every past AB coach would’ve won all them plain and simple…
I’m of the view that there are some real positives, but we are still trying to find the right combos and that is affecting our play. Which makes sense when a bunch of guys have banked less than 10 tests.
We can point to play X or Y and say, “see, no improvement” or “that lost us the game right there”, but in my view that’s rugby. I’m disappointed we didn’t do a couple of things in the dying minutes, but hopefully we learn from it.
Not that long ago, it was Quade knocking over an extra time penalty kick to take it away from the Boks. For all the criticism, they have done things to stay in games and we should never be surprised with that given it’s the Boks.
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Well we have always been told with our cattle anyone could coach the ABs....I think Foster is proving it ain't that easy.
@Derpus so after all your super negative shit during all the AB v Wob tests and how.much of a waste of time they were, now it will be a good idea?
@taniwharugby a two game series with both teams at full strength home and away. Sure.
3-4 games a year where we might be competitive in one at most? no.
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Fancy losing a test by 2 points and falling just short of winning 5 tests in 5 weeks on Australian soil and being told you’re not good enough, you are hopeless. Because every past AB coach would’ve won all them plain and simple…
I’m of the view that there are some real positives, but we are still trying to find the right combos and that is affecting our play. Which makes sense when a bunch of guys have banked less than 10 tests.
We can point to play X or Y and say, “see, no improvement” or “that lost us the game right there”, but in my view that’s rugby. I’m disappointed we didn’t do a couple of things in the dying minutes, but hopefully we learn from it.
Not that long ago, it was Quade knocking over an extra time penalty kick to take it away from the Boks. For all the criticism, they have done things to stay in games and we should never be surprised with that given it’s the Boks.
@act-crusader said in Foster signs 2 year extension:
Fancy losing a test by 2 points and falling just short of winning 5 tests in 5 weeks on Australian soil and being told you’re not good enough, you are hopeless. Because every past AB coach would’ve won all them plain and simple…
I’m of the view that there are some real positives, but we are still trying to find the right combos and that is affecting our play. Which makes sense when a bunch of guys have banked less than 10 tests.
We can point to play X or Y and say, “see, no improvement” or “that lost us the game right there”, but in my view that’s rugby. I’m disappointed we didn’t do a couple of things in the dying minutes, but hopefully we learn from it.
Not that long ago, it was Quade knocking over an extra time penalty kick to take it away from the Boks. For all the criticism, they have done things to stay in games and we should never be surprised with that given it’s the Boks.
I'm not a fan of Foster, by any means, but I agree. Given most of us didn't think much of the assistant coaches selected, it is surprising how well we've actually done.
Presumably most coaches struggle to come up with answers to a strong rush defense - which is why the better teams go for it. And we definitely look to be creating more against teams that use it than we have in the past.
I do think there is some pretty strong evidence that we're going to struggle to win tight games unless we make some big steps forward with our set piece work, though.
We already have a specialist scrum coach, and I'm sure he'll do some work there. I do expect Ofa and Moody to improve after a few more games. I think Mike Cron always said it takes a few games for props to be back at their best after an injury. Whether they improve as much as we need is another story.
I do think there is a lot of value in bringing in a specialist lineout coach, even if it just temporarily as a consultant. I don't think there was too much wrong with the throwing last night (with one or two exceptions), but it just seems we're too predictable there. Having Sam Whitelock back should make a difference, but we shouldn't be so dependent on him that our lineout falls apart if he isn't there.
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@act-crusader said in Foster signs 2 year extension:
Fancy losing a test by 2 points and falling just short of winning 5 tests in 5 weeks on Australian soil and being told you’re not good enough, you are hopeless. Because every past AB coach would’ve won all them plain and simple…
I’m of the view that there are some real positives, but we are still trying to find the right combos and that is affecting our play. Which makes sense when a bunch of guys have banked less than 10 tests.
We can point to play X or Y and say, “see, no improvement” or “that lost us the game right there”, but in my view that’s rugby. I’m disappointed we didn’t do a couple of things in the dying minutes, but hopefully we learn from it.
Not that long ago, it was Quade knocking over an extra time penalty kick to take it away from the Boks. For all the criticism, they have done things to stay in games and we should never be surprised with that given it’s the Boks.
I'm not a fan of Foster, by any means, but I agree. Given most of us didn't think much of the assistant coaches selected, it is surprising how well we've actually done.
Presumably most coaches struggle to come up with answers to a strong rush defense - which is why the better teams go for it. And we definitely look to be creating more against teams that use it than we have in the past.
I do think there is some pretty strong evidence that we're going to struggle to win tight games unless we make some big steps forward with our set piece work, though.
We already have a specialist scrum coach, and I'm sure he'll do some work there. I do expect Ofa and Moody to improve after a few more games. I think Mike Cron always said it takes a few games for props to be back at their best after an injury. Whether they improve as much as we need is another story.
I do think there is a lot of value in bringing in a specialist lineout coach, even if it just temporarily as a consultant. I don't think there was too much wrong with the throwing last night (with one or two exceptions), but it just seems we're too predictable there. Having Sam Whitelock back should make a difference, but we shouldn't be so dependent on him that our lineout falls apart if he isn't there.
@bobily2 @ACT-Crusader ,
well done to you both, some great points .
My biggest concern is at breakdown and at times not throwing enough numbers , it’s fair to say in these last 2 tests against the boks it’s been very uncomfortable in that facet and it’s fair to say we have had our arses handed to us but it also happened against the Fijians at times during both tests earlier this year and last year against the Pumas went we lost for the first time in our history and of course against England at the RWC 2019.
For me it’s been a red flag for a very long time , with inaccuracies to hold onto the ball for any period of time against quality opposition comes indiscipline when defending along with failure to deal with high kicks .
There are times we can slow the game down to reassess especially if the defence solid .
Personally I think South Africa , England or France can beat us on a given day , because in the last 2 weeks the Boks have highlighted all the short comings of this current All Black team..Whitelock will improve the lineout , but I want to see way more of our tight forwards , to me they have been the real disappointment. -
Foster is keen on a back three of 7s!
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@machpants even if the only 7 is at 8...
do they really care about these records?
Foster, I guess, but the players? -
Bringing it back here, just to make the point for posterity: coaching matters.
South Africa - went from 57-0 thumping to RWC Champs in 2 years.
Foster is stagnant, the signs have been there for ages, and we paper over the cracks. The commentators don't help, they seem to be captured by the NZR commercial models to only say good things. I literally turned off the USA game because the commentators were banging on about how awesome the ABs were, when you could see they were just faster, bigger and stronger and not creating with anything but with a mismatch.
We need to go back to root and branch assessment in this country, and evolve quickly. I don't know why we're not testing rush defences in Super; they seem to work well to shut down time and space. We're not seeing innovation, but more of the same.
I'm most worried about our tight 5. Their poitn of difference used to be ball playing compared to others; now not the case. Ball running has largely disappeared from most of them, and we're not dominating set pieces.
Looking at the upside potential - if Sam plays limited minutes next year in Super and comes to the Internationals fizzing, alongside a rejuvenated Brodie we're good. Need to see a number of front rowers step back up, too. The downside is that we wind up with a pack that's over the hill, not strong enough or fast enough to compete, and without enough time before RWC2023 to develop new players.
The decision to reappoint was too early. It's ridiculous.
Edit: and of course, at Super level, Umaga --> MacDonald, Foster --> Rennie, Bladder --> Razor
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that game and reading through some peoples comments in the match thread makes me think, we're just not innovating or learning from our failings
so there was the comment that you cant win a turnover without a dominant tackle, put simply i understand but then two thoughts occur to me
- Is it worth is if we're getting it wrong so often (even if only in the refs eyes) and getting carded or penalised? if we cant get these tackles right are we better to try and force an error rather than turn over
- other countries seem to be getting the tackle right more than we are, often a tackler and then the jackal right on their shoulder, where as if we have two both try and put in a dominant tackle doubling the chance one will get it wrong
Then there is the rush defence, why cant we come up with a way to counter it better...and if its so hard to counter why aren't we doing it to others, Lowe seemed to get on the end of backline moves several times where as IF reece or jordan did they were miles behind the advantage line and or on the back foot
Handling errors...so many handling errors, not all knock ons but several and then lots of passes to shoulders or behind players which just slows things down
We seem to have to confidence of world beaters, trying to open teams up from our own 22...but not the basic skill level for several of the team anyway
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that game and reading through some peoples comments in the match thread makes me think, we're just not innovating or learning from our failings
so there was the comment that you cant win a turnover without a dominant tackle, put simply i understand but then two thoughts occur to me
- Is it worth is if we're getting it wrong so often (even if only in the refs eyes) and getting carded or penalised? if we cant get these tackles right are we better to try and force an error rather than turn over
- other countries seem to be getting the tackle right more than we are, often a tackler and then the jackal right on their shoulder, where as if we have two both try and put in a dominant tackle doubling the chance one will get it wrong
Then there is the rush defence, why cant we come up with a way to counter it better...and if its so hard to counter why aren't we doing it to others, Lowe seemed to get on the end of backline moves several times where as IF reece or jordan did they were miles behind the advantage line and or on the back foot
Handling errors...so many handling errors, not all knock ons but several and then lots of passes to shoulders or behind players which just slows things down
We seem to have to confidence of world beaters, trying to open teams up from our own 22...but not the basic skill level for several of the team anyway
@kiwiwomble Wayne Smith always talked about dominant tackles, we dont seem to do much of that anymore, despite having guys like Dalton, Brodie, Akira, Jacobson, Cane etc who all hit hard, but we dont seem to be.
Instead we seem more passive, almost like the way you teach a 40kg kid to tackle the big 80kg behemoth in his grade.
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@kiwiwomble Wayne Smith always talked about dominant tackles, we dont seem to do much of that anymore, despite having guys like Dalton, Brodie, Akira, Jacobson, Cane etc who all hit hard, but we dont seem to be.
Instead we seem more passive, almost like the way you teach a 40kg kid to tackle the big 80kg behemoth in his grade.
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwiwomble Wayne Smith always talked about dominant tackles, we dont seem to do much of that anymore, despite having guys like Dalton, Brodie, Akira, Jacobson, Cane etc who all hit hard, but we dont seem to be.
Instead we seem more passive, almost like the way you teach a 40kg kid to tackle the big 80kg behemoth in his grade.
Opposition seem to get an easy roll on, not good
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwiwomble Wayne Smith always talked about dominant tackles, we dont seem to do much of that anymore, despite having guys like Dalton, Brodie, Akira, Jacobson, Cane etc who all hit hard, but we dont seem to be.
Instead we seem more passive, almost like the way you teach a 40kg kid to tackle the big 80kg behemoth in his grade.
Opposition seem to get an easy roll on, not good
@canefan said in All Blacks 2021:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwiwomble Wayne Smith always talked about dominant tackles, we dont seem to do much of that anymore, despite having guys like Dalton, Brodie, Akira, Jacobson, Cane etc who all hit hard, but we dont seem to be.
Instead we seem more passive, almost like the way you teach a 40kg kid to tackle the big 80kg behemoth in his grade.
Opposition seem to get an easy roll on, not good
Do you not think that some of that is to do with reducing the risk of cards for tackles? Dominant tackles are great, but get it wrong, and you lose a man to the bin.
Ireland hunted in 2s at the weekend. A low chop tackle by one and the next man was onto the ball (legally or not). It slowed NZ down or disrupted at least if no turnover was effected. Ringrose was v good at this. Ireland also do the choke tackle still and gained plenty of reward when NZ runners got isolated.
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Bringing it back here, just to make the point for posterity: coaching matters.
South Africa - went from 57-0 thumping to RWC Champs in 2 years.
Foster is stagnant, the signs have been there for ages, and we paper over the cracks. The commentators don't help, they seem to be captured by the NZR commercial models to only say good things. I literally turned off the USA game because the commentators were banging on about how awesome the ABs were, when you could see they were just faster, bigger and stronger and not creating with anything but with a mismatch.
We need to go back to root and branch assessment in this country, and evolve quickly. I don't know why we're not testing rush defences in Super; they seem to work well to shut down time and space. We're not seeing innovation, but more of the same.
I'm most worried about our tight 5. Their poitn of difference used to be ball playing compared to others; now not the case. Ball running has largely disappeared from most of them, and we're not dominating set pieces.
Looking at the upside potential - if Sam plays limited minutes next year in Super and comes to the Internationals fizzing, alongside a rejuvenated Brodie we're good. Need to see a number of front rowers step back up, too. The downside is that we wind up with a pack that's over the hill, not strong enough or fast enough to compete, and without enough time before RWC2023 to develop new players.
The decision to reappoint was too early. It's ridiculous.
Edit: and of course, at Super level, Umaga --> MacDonald, Foster --> Rennie, Bladder --> Razor
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:
Foster is stagnant, the signs have been there for ages, and we paper over the cracks. The commentators don't help, they seem to be captured by the NZR commercial models to only say good things. I literally turned off the USA game because the commentators were banging on about how awesome the ABs were, when you could see they were just faster, bigger and stronger and not creating with anything but with a mismatch.
Yeah - I think Foster was the continuity pick, but it is the continuity of sytems that others have caught up with and probably passed. As well as all the IP going abroad via coaches and players - Ted, Richie, Ceri Evans and others have written books giving some of it away.
There is still a bit of innovation coming through, I think. Those little midfield chip kicks that Jordan especially has been catching and scoring or setting up from seem new to me. Though they might have come from the Crusaders.
But, I look at Foster, Plumtree, McLeod, Hooar and think surely we could get more out of a group of Razor, Rangi, Brown, Gatland and Schmidt (not necessarily all of them (and supplemented by others) and if some of them are willing to put their egos away for the cause)?
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:
Foster is stagnant, the signs have been there for ages, and we paper over the cracks. The commentators don't help, they seem to be captured by the NZR commercial models to only say good things. I literally turned off the USA game because the commentators were banging on about how awesome the ABs were, when you could see they were just faster, bigger and stronger and not creating with anything but with a mismatch.
Yeah - I think Foster was the continuity pick, but it is the continuity of sytems that others have caught up with and probably passed. As well as all the IP going abroad via coaches and players - Ted, Richie, Ceri Evans and others have written books giving some of it away.
There is still a bit of innovation coming through, I think. Those little midfield chip kicks that Jordan especially has been catching and scoring or setting up from seem new to me. Though they might have come from the Crusaders.
But, I look at Foster, Plumtree, McLeod, Hooar and think surely we could get more out of a group of Razor, Rangi, Brown, Gatland and Schmidt (not necessarily all of them (and supplemented by others) and if some of them are willing to put their egos away for the cause)?
@chris-b Your last point describes the difficulty of putting a "coaching team" together if they all want to be in charge or only work with specific people. Brown would have been a great addition to the ABs but that was only going to happen under Joseph. I would prefer we looked to RL for a defensive coach.
