Carl Hayman
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@billy-tell said in Carl Hayman:
Still remains the best TH prop I’ve seen from NZ, would have easily reached 100 caps.
Olo Brown has entered the chat. Straightest back in the game - and not tall enough to play at 8
@nzzp said in Carl Hayman:
@billy-tell said in Carl Hayman:
Still remains the best TH prop I’ve seen from NZ, would have easily reached 100 caps.
Olo Brown has entered the chat. Straightest back in the game - and not tall enough to play at 8
Hello Olo. Nice to meet you. Don’t feel obliged to use the third person. You are my second best prop after Hayman. Sorry! Don’t take it badly.
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Has this always been a problem? Or have recent rule changes and bigger, fitter players made it worse?
Feel terrible for the guy.
@kirwan said in Carl Hayman:
Has this always been a problem? Or have recent rule changes and bigger, fitter players made it worse?
Feel terrible for the guy.This is, of course, the most awful news - a young man expert in his field cut down in his prime.
There are many reasons for this mighty problem, Kirwan, some of them canvassed here. The lawyers are gearing up, the anti-sport crusaders are on the job, politicians all jumpy about which horse to back ... and nowhere near enough emphasis on measures to minimise the risk by this weekend! They have had long enough to have that down pat.
A few words on a part of it ...
I have had plenty to say on the subject in recent years as I watched Union and League fans, coaches, media and advertising managers find excuses for head high tackling.
For example, "Intent" became sexy, as if a referee moving at x miles per hour could assess what a culprit had in his mind immediately before the event notwithstanding neither he nor anyone else had been studying his mannerisms, facial expression and FacePlant ravings that day, that week or that year! Television broadcasters can assess "intent" from 75 yards away, three stories up in the media box.
Years ago tackling high was uncommon. The emphasis was on an individual bringing the man down quickly so that he would "die with the ball". To do it alone was honourable.
The earliest sessions (and forevermore) with the coach under whom I captained were focused on disciplined defence, using one of three techniques ... from behind, arms around the thighs; from the side with your head behind the other bloke's backside - too low to be palmed off; and from in front, sit on the ground and as he trundles over the top wrap the arms around his thighs and go with him as he tackles himself.
That last one was good for the little fellas - I watched Patrick Lambie execute it perfectly when he emerged in the Currie Cup a decade or so ago.
Perhaps 40% of the time a team mate would come in higher up, wrapping his arms around the mid-section to lock up the ball.
This is what we aspired to: <a href=tinyurl.com/JimmyLisle1964 >Jimmy Lisle, Wallaby and Kangaroo</a> ... Aaarrrggghhh - the image link process has got me baffled - try this tinyurl.com/JimmyLisle1964
The point of all that is that he directed us to tackle below the waist and gave his good reasons why. That coach built his (League) teams on this platform and took them to a half dozen grand finals in a decade.
There was no compelling reason to change the behaviours and safety standards.
Billy the blue fella could tell you the codes made a grave mistake in permitting, ultimately, arms free erect body charges at warp speed in a Colosseum setting. Influential competing interests stifled that notion.
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@kirwan said in Carl Hayman:
Has this always been a problem? Or have recent rule changes and bigger, fitter players made it worse?
Feel terrible for the guy.This is, of course, the most awful news - a young man expert in his field cut down in his prime.
There are many reasons for this mighty problem, Kirwan, some of them canvassed here. The lawyers are gearing up, the anti-sport crusaders are on the job, politicians all jumpy about which horse to back ... and nowhere near enough emphasis on measures to minimise the risk by this weekend! They have had long enough to have that down pat.
A few words on a part of it ...
I have had plenty to say on the subject in recent years as I watched Union and League fans, coaches, media and advertising managers find excuses for head high tackling.
For example, "Intent" became sexy, as if a referee moving at x miles per hour could assess what a culprit had in his mind immediately before the event notwithstanding neither he nor anyone else had been studying his mannerisms, facial expression and FacePlant ravings that day, that week or that year! Television broadcasters can assess "intent" from 75 yards away, three stories up in the media box.
Years ago tackling high was uncommon. The emphasis was on an individual bringing the man down quickly so that he would "die with the ball". To do it alone was honourable.
The earliest sessions (and forevermore) with the coach under whom I captained were focused on disciplined defence, using one of three techniques ... from behind, arms around the thighs; from the side with your head behind the other bloke's backside - too low to be palmed off; and from in front, sit on the ground and as he trundles over the top wrap the arms around his thighs and go with him as he tackles himself.
That last one was good for the little fellas - I watched Patrick Lambie execute it perfectly when he emerged in the Currie Cup a decade or so ago.
Perhaps 40% of the time a team mate would come in higher up, wrapping his arms around the mid-section to lock up the ball.
This is what we aspired to: <a href=tinyurl.com/JimmyLisle1964 >Jimmy Lisle, Wallaby and Kangaroo</a> ... Aaarrrggghhh - the image link process has got me baffled - try this tinyurl.com/JimmyLisle1964
The point of all that is that he directed us to tackle below the waist and gave his good reasons why. That coach built his (League) teams on this platform and took them to a half dozen grand finals in a decade.
There was no compelling reason to change the behaviours and safety standards.
Billy the blue fella could tell you the codes made a grave mistake in permitting, ultimately, arms free erect body charges at warp speed in a Colosseum setting. Influential competing interests stifled that notion.
@mick-gold-coast-qld I’m a dumbass. Now we’ve got that out of the way we can dismiss any type of derogatory retorts.
But the necessity to go higher surely is to negate the offload offense heavy strategy the modern game has become. You can not simply apply a cookie cutter type defense that worked years ago to the modern game. Cricket score would follow.
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@mick-gold-coast-qld I’m a dumbass. Now we’ve got that out of the way we can dismiss any type of derogatory retorts.
But the necessity to go higher surely is to negate the offload offense heavy strategy the modern game has become. You can not simply apply a cookie cutter type defense that worked years ago to the modern game. Cricket score would follow.
@raznomore said in Carl Hayman:
@mick-gold-coast-qld I’m a dumbass. No we’ve got that out of the way we can dismiss any type of derogatory retorts.
But the necessity to go higher surely is to negate the offload offense heavy strategy the modern game has become. You can not simply apply a cookie cutter type defense that worked years ago to the modern game. Cricket score would follow.
I opened with "A few words on a part of it ...", raznomore, precisely because this is one of those blog thingys where sensitive egos must be seen to be right, by belting a bloke for something they reckon he should have said, or did say but really didn't.
Unfortunately it is not the Anglers Arms at Southport where you can argue the toss and be readily understood, agree, disagree and "Who's shout is it? ... and I need a couple of steel fixers for a big pour on Friday." (... it's like an informal construction employment service centre there).
I don't post here as often as I could because I have been warned off for being old, very old, stupid, private school :anxious_face_with_sweat: ignorant and a few other things I do not recall, by an important fella who knows stuff. Ahhhh, the intolerant young.
I have made an exception just now, briefly, because I fear for the future of the great game I have served as a loyal acolyte all my life. I will attempt to be brief.
"the offload offense heavy strategy the modern game has become" started sometime before this century - the mighty Arthur Beetson was offering master classes in that in the late 1960s, as was Dick Thornett and Dick Huddart and Merv Hicks.
Opposing coaches countered by allocating a couple more tacklers who would climb all over them, like lions on an antelope, to smother the ball. I will say it didn't negate him - Arthur was too clever by half!
I'm not looking for something from "my times" for nostalgic reasons. I am recounting something which worked and which may be adapted rather than summarily discarded.
I want the custodians - Bennett, for example - to act responsibly, put aside their personal agendas and lead the substantial, immediate improvements that must be made, to protect the boofheads in their care from their own ignorance. There will be no game, in either code, if they do not take control and apply their skills to pass it on to the next lot in better shape than they found it.
I do appreciate your response, raznomore.
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I too have worn the groove out on the same record but if it ain't broke, don't fix it
Head injury resulting in the player leaving the field AUTOMATIC 3 weeks off
@mikethesnow said in Carl Hayman:
I too have worn the groove out on the same record but if it ain't broke, don't fix it
Head injury resulting in the player leaving the field AUTOMATIC 3 weeks off
We used to have that didn't we? Now there's more science and the stand down gets to last longer if you're not right.
I assume though you're proposing a minimum.
The other consideration is the micro concussions. In themselves not enough to cause concussion but cumulatively they fuck your brain up.
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@mikethesnow said in Carl Hayman:
I too have worn the groove out on the same record but if it ain't broke, don't fix it
Head injury resulting in the player leaving the field AUTOMATIC 3 weeks off
We used to have that didn't we? Now there's more science and the stand down gets to last longer if you're not right.
I assume though you're proposing a minimum.
The other consideration is the micro concussions. In themselves not enough to cause concussion but cumulatively they fuck your brain up.
@booboo said in Carl Hayman:
@mikethesnow said in Carl Hayman:
I too have worn the groove out on the same record but if it ain't broke, don't fix it
Head injury resulting in the player leaving the field AUTOMATIC 3 weeks off
We used to have that didn't we? Now there's more science and the stand down gets to last longer if you're not right.
I assume though you're proposing a minimum.
The other consideration is the micro concussions. In themselves not enough to cause concussion but cumulatively they fuck your brain up.
Yes we used to
And yes minimum stand down
Micro-concussions
YC or RC path they're furrowing now
The better teams will adapt
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I will always remember a guy whom I had dealings with at work. The first time I met him I was blown away by what an absolute arsehole he was, he flew into fits of rage and abused everybody in his path and destroyed as much property as possible. Then I spoke to his elderly father. It turns out this guy was a decorated veteran who was suffering from early onset dementia. He had lived a caring loving life up to that point. The behaviour we were seeing was not him. It was the dementia eating away at him. I learnt that early onset dementia can be particularly brutal. He passed away about a year later.
Carl has a big battle ahead of him. I wish him the very best.
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@voodoo said in Carl Hayman:
Fuck me
It's a fucking awful disease which a lot of people don't want to talk about. I hope big Carl's opening up helps break down some of barriers and increases awareness & understanding.
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I've got a guy working for me in Tauranga who suffered his 5th concussion about 6 weeks ago.
We are trying to assist him - He was off for about a month then we got him back for 3 hours a day o light duties. Like really light we have a casual who lifts everything for him - our guy just has to watch. He can't manage that and is now taking another month off to rest completely 24 hours / day.
I had no idea he had hurt his head so many times or I would have told him to give the footy away. Only in his early 20's poor bastard.
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I've got a guy working for me in Tauranga who suffered his 5th concussion about 6 weeks ago.
We are trying to assist him - He was off for about a month then we got him back for 3 hours a day o light duties. Like really light we have a casual who lifts everything for him - our guy just has to watch. He can't manage that and is now taking another month off to rest completely 24 hours / day.
I had no idea he had hurt his head so many times or I would have told him to give the footy away. Only in his early 20's poor bastard.
@dogmeat thats shocking his family, team mates and coach allow him to play!!
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I've got a guy working for me in Tauranga who suffered his 5th concussion about 6 weeks ago.
We are trying to assist him - He was off for about a month then we got him back for 3 hours a day o light duties. Like really light we have a casual who lifts everything for him - our guy just has to watch. He can't manage that and is now taking another month off to rest completely 24 hours / day.
I had no idea he had hurt his head so many times or I would have told him to give the footy away. Only in his early 20's poor bastard.
@dogmeat said in Carl Hayman:
I've got a guy working for me in Tauranga who suffered his 5th concussion about 6 weeks ago.
We are trying to assist him - He was off for about a month then we got him back for 3 hours a day o light duties. Like really light we have a casual who lifts everything for him - our guy just has to watch. He can't manage that and is now taking another month off to rest completely 24 hours / day.
I had no idea he had hurt his head so many times or I would have told him to give the footy away. Only in his early 20's poor bastard.
Pretty poor medical advice (if he got any) to go that far.
Drs will still tell players that it's OK to continue but you'd think most players would know themselves when to stop.
The son took two concussions at school. We had him tested and baselined, did all the right stuff. He took another in club and was cleared by the doctor. He was too gun shy after that to play well and gave things up.
Tried playing one more time in the UK by just didn't feel comfortable and was always worried about taking another head shot. Walked away from the game.Thing is that none of his concussions came from foul play or poor tackling. Every one was just accidental in collisions at the tackle area. Unlucky timing and stuff.
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@dogmeat said in Carl Hayman:
I've got a guy working for me in Tauranga who suffered his 5th concussion about 6 weeks ago.
We are trying to assist him - He was off for about a month then we got him back for 3 hours a day o light duties. Like really light we have a casual who lifts everything for him - our guy just has to watch. He can't manage that and is now taking another month off to rest completely 24 hours / day.
I had no idea he had hurt his head so many times or I would have told him to give the footy away. Only in his early 20's poor bastard.
Pretty poor medical advice (if he got any) to go that far.
Drs will still tell players that it's OK to continue but you'd think most players would know themselves when to stop.
The son took two concussions at school. We had him tested and baselined, did all the right stuff. He took another in club and was cleared by the doctor. He was too gun shy after that to play well and gave things up.
Tried playing one more time in the UK by just didn't feel comfortable and was always worried about taking another head shot. Walked away from the game.Thing is that none of his concussions came from foul play or poor tackling. Every one was just accidental in collisions at the tackle area. Unlucky timing and stuff.
@Crucial while it sucks he had to give it up that is definitely the best call for his longer term health. Worrying about an injury or being concerned about another head knock doesn't work on the field aye. In fact you are more likely to get in a situation if you aren't going full noise imo. I only had a couple of head knocks and still miss the props life... amble, smash, push, lift, then take home all the wahines
Edit, I forget lean, always take time to lean on the ruck. Gotta get that O2 in somehow!
A mate at College was a menace openside and playing 1st 15 in 3rd form. Pretty sure he stopped play rugby at college. He was/is a super talented surfer and he had to wear a helmet while surfing due to all the head knocks he had in rugby. It would have been beyond shit if he had to give them both up.
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From the guy who left NZ rugby early to make as much money as possible in the NH.
I’m thinking rugby was the commodity and not you Carl.
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From the guy who left NZ rugby early to make as much money as possible in the NH.
I’m thinking rugby was the commodity and not you Carl.
@Billy-Tell said in Carl Hayman:
From the guy who left NZ rugby early to make as much money as possible in the NH.
I’m thinking rugby was the commodity and not you Carl.
Did you read the article ?
He says it pretty matter of factly……he then goes on to say he was lucky he made money out of the game.
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From the guy who left NZ rugby early to make as much money as possible in the NH.
I’m thinking rugby was the commodity and not you Carl.
Wasn't he convicted of serious domestic violence charges in France? Don't know if he can blame those on head-knocks.
