All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour
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So, watch the reply this morning
First and foremost the Irish played better than us, our tries came from a couple of moment so of individual brilliance where as theirs came from building pressure and periods of dominance
They deserved to win
Re some Of the refs decisions, yes I disagree with the calls on principle…it’s not tiddly winks etc…but, these calls aren’t unexpected, especially in the NH and so if we’re not planning and training around these things then we’re not planning properly…funnily enough, complaining to ref that you think he’s got it wrong…almost never works
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@akan004 said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Ireland played like a Schmidt-coached and drilled team to my ignorant eyes but with more steel in the attack and defense. Is that also the opinion of the Irish fans?
IMO Farrell is an excellent defense coach. Which is a bit surprising given how his son tackles.They played like Leinster. Leinster are an excellent team.
12 out of the 15 are from Leinster right? Basically Leinster whipped the ABs.
Combinations brings cohesion. Ireland played like a team that have played lots of times together. Today, they raised their Leinster levels up.
Funny in a way, because the ABs used to have that same feeling that they had that cohesion. It'll take time to get that back (unless key combinations like midfield, or half backs or back row are taken from the Super rugby teams).
Nonu and Smith at the Hurricanes. McCaw and Read at the Crusaders. Collins and So'oialo at the Hurricanes.
Could there be a potential all Blues back row forcing a rethink next year? Robinson/Papali'i/Sotutu?
Big year next year for Tupaea and ALB. Any other centre combinations with promise? Goodhue and Ennor perhaps?
Barrett is playing outside Christie next year at the Blues, no? That will help if Christie kicks on.
One thing that the AB coaches need to consider is playing players in the positions they have played in for the season. Yes, AB players are very good, but even v good players need consistency to get the best out of them. If Savea is to play no 8 for the ABs, he needs to play there for the Hurricanes. Same for Blackadder at 6 playing at Crusaders.
Pick the players with the right blend. If someone misses out for the benefit of the team, tough luck. They don't need to be shoe horned in. Jordie Barrett at fullback this year is one bright spot. He has played fullback for Hurricanes, shone, and brought that confidence and experience into the ABs.
Is it really that difficult to be a selector?
@stodders fantastic point about 12 players being part of the Leinster lineup , that many players in the starting lineup is impressive ..
The combinations on attack and defence showed big time..Just in terms of the season , if you were totally honest about whom we have played
In 2021 and thats disrespect to some off the opposition we played , but some of the teams we played bar the last 2 tests against the Springboks were nothing but cannon fodder ..
Unstrength
Tonga
Fiji (twice)
USA
Italy
A Puma team thats struggling
and an Australian team that has in inferiority complex when playing the All Blacks , how do you get better when the opposition is this poor…?
When we do come up against teams who bring heat across all facets which effects decsion making , we get found out ..! -
@act-crusader said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mofitzy_ said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@majorrage
You either want Foster gone or embrace failure.This Star Wars, “you’re either with me or against me”, talk is really really funny.
It's so funny! Look at all these chicken littles since 2015! Always saying that we're in decline and lack physical forwards! They even think Ireland are a threat! But we just keep on winning all the time so of course we appoint the same coaches and play the same tactics! HA HA HA HA HA All these panicking fools! I'm above it all!
@tim said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@act-crusader said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mofitzy_ said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@majorrage
You either want Foster gone or embrace failure.This Star Wars, “you’re either with me or against me”, talk is really really funny.
It's so funny! Look at all these chicken littles since 2015! Always saying that we're in decline and lack physical forwards! They even think Ireland are a threat! But we just keep on winning all the time so of course we appoint the same coaches and play the same tactics! HA HA HA HA HA All these panicking fools! I'm above it all!
It is hilarious because it’s not absolute.
Some of the tactics looked really good others poor. Some of our play was effective and we got in behind the Irish defence and other not. So when we were getting go forward we’re the Irish tactics absolutely crap too? There are things we are lacking abut that isn’t unexpected
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What probably fucks me off the most is Samisoni is exactly the type of player you need against a predictably aggressive Irish pack with an organised rush defense. Hits hard in the tackle, makes metres with every carry up the guts and has been in superb form to boot. And we... leave him out of the 23 altogether?
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What probably fucks me off the most is Samisoni is exactly the type of player you need against a predictably aggressive Irish pack with an organised rush defense. Hits hard in the tackle, makes metres with every carry up the guts and has been in superb form to boot. And we... leave him out of the 23 altogether?
@no-quarter said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
What probably fucks me off the most is Samisoni is exactly the type of player you need against a predictably aggressive Irish pack with an organised rush defense. Hits hard in the tackle, makes metres with every carry up the guts and has been in superb form to boot. And we... leave him out of the 23 altogether?
He's arguably the find of the season.
For the AB coaches perhaps the find has been JB is better at FB! -
@tim said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@act-crusader said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mofitzy_ said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@majorrage
You either want Foster gone or embrace failure.This Star Wars, “you’re either with me or against me”, talk is really really funny.
It's so funny! Look at all these chicken littles since 2015! Always saying that we're in decline and lack physical forwards! They even think Ireland are a threat! But we just keep on winning all the time so of course we appoint the same coaches and play the same tactics! HA HA HA HA HA All these panicking fools! I'm above it all!
It is hilarious because it’s not absolute.
Some of the tactics looked really good others poor. Some of our play was effective and we got in behind the Irish defence and other not. So when we were getting go forward we’re the Irish tactics absolutely crap too? There are things we are lacking abut that isn’t unexpected
@act-crusader said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@tim said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@act-crusader said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mofitzy_ said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@majorrage
You either want Foster gone or embrace failure.This Star Wars, “you’re either with me or against me”, talk is really really funny.
It's so funny! Look at all these chicken littles since 2015! Always saying that we're in decline and lack physical forwards! They even think Ireland are a threat! But we just keep on winning all the time so of course we appoint the same coaches and play the same tactics! HA HA HA HA HA All these panicking fools! I'm above it all!
It is hilarious because it’s not absolute.
Some of the tactics looked really good others poor. Some of our play was effective and we got in behind the Irish defence and other not. So when we were getting go forward we’re the Irish tactics absolutely crap too? There are things we are lacking abut that isn’t unexpected
We're lacking a pact! Somebody reach out to the Boks!
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@act-crusader said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@tim said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@act-crusader said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mofitzy_ said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@majorrage
You either want Foster gone or embrace failure.This Star Wars, “you’re either with me or against me”, talk is really really funny.
It's so funny! Look at all these chicken littles since 2015! Always saying that we're in decline and lack physical forwards! They even think Ireland are a threat! But we just keep on winning all the time so of course we appoint the same coaches and play the same tactics! HA HA HA HA HA All these panicking fools! I'm above it all!
It is hilarious because it’s not absolute.
Some of the tactics looked really good others poor. Some of our play was effective and we got in behind the Irish defence and other not. So when we were getting go forward we’re the Irish tactics absolutely crap too? There are things we are lacking abut that isn’t unexpected
We're lacking a pact! Somebody reach out to the Boks!
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@act-crusader said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@tim said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@act-crusader said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mofitzy_ said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@majorrage
You either want Foster gone or embrace failure.This Star Wars, “you’re either with me or against me”, talk is really really funny.
It's so funny! Look at all these chicken littles since 2015! Always saying that we're in decline and lack physical forwards! They even think Ireland are a threat! But we just keep on winning all the time so of course we appoint the same coaches and play the same tactics! HA HA HA HA HA All these panicking fools! I'm above it all!
It is hilarious because it’s not absolute.
Some of the tactics looked really good others poor. Some of our play was effective and we got in behind the Irish defence and other not. So when we were getting go forward we’re the Irish tactics absolutely crap too? There are things we are lacking abut that isn’t unexpected
We're lacking a pact! Somebody reach out to the Boks!
and a coach
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
As for the ABS, fucking LOL. Talk about hammered boy. Picking an entire side of guys who can't make a dominant tackle, or get over the gain line, or be physical at the breakdown is certainly one way to play. Was the plan to confuse them by letting them have too much ball? We could not stop them doing what they wanted. Conversely when we had the ball we could do shit because we couldn't get past the gain line
It's rather frustrating to see the ABs continually playing the Highlanders' "make 200 tackles, and one in three games we'll get lucky and win because the opposition will make a lot of mistakes" game plan.
Thats the plan to go along with selecting three open-sides, two has-been locks, and three plodders in the front row. The Highlanders tend to be more aggressive at the ruck, and have better line speed, though.
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Quote from Foster before the Ireland game
“ “We’ve had two blocks of five tests in a row. The last block we finished with two tests against South Africa and now we finish this block with Ireland and [France],” added Foster. “We’ve been able to plan around that. Am I excited about our preparedness? Yeah I am.”
I hate to see when you think we are under prepared Mr Foster.
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@tim let’s not lower ourselves to bad mouth the Highlanders now! Haha
@98blueandgold They do a better job with a limited roster!
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Also of concern is we didn’t use 2 (Vaa’i and Halfback) from reserves? Always been a strength of ours but show lack of depth or trust? Also got me thinking watching Reece’s bad outing is how Caleb Clarke’s decision to play sevens backfired on him - and ABs. A back three of JB, CB and WJ pretty powerful, although I know there are lots of other issues.
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Also of concern is we didn’t use 2 (Vaa’i and Halfback) from reserves? Always been a strength of ours but show lack of depth or trust? Also got me thinking watching Reece’s bad outing is how Caleb Clarke’s decision to play sevens backfired on him - and ABs. A back three of JB, CB and WJ pretty powerful, although I know there are lots of other issues.
@98blueandgold said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Also of concern is we didn’t use 2 (Vaa’i and Halfback) from reserves? Always been a strength of ours but show lack of depth or trust? Also got me thinking watching Reece’s bad outing is how Caleb Clarke’s decision to play sevens backfired on him - and ABs. A back three of JB, CB and WJ pretty powerful, although I know there are lots of other issues.
yes if Clarke was back in form but he is also pretty green at international level.
I don't think the main problem is at wing though. Reece has a high workrate and pushes it so he can make mistakes. But we consistently let a strong opposition play to our weaknesses and their strengths in the forwards, midfield is a mess, kicks out of hand are so so, our line out is getting worse and some basic skills are slipping. -
@mofitzy_ said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew
Players of a known quantity are underperforming, new players don't cut the mustard. That's on the coach.Or the players just aren't there? The player pool at 9 isn't exactly overflowing and that's not down to Foster
Also, even if that doesn't solve everything, what other option is there?
Taking a cold, hard look before rushing wholesale changes in one part of the orgnisation?
Foster is the inbred grandson of a once great King. Only there because of what his ancestors did, and even his father wasn't all that great.
I'm just not convinced changing a few people in the coaching team is a magic solution. The problems are deeper than that.
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mofitzy_ said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew
Players of a known quantity are underperforming, new players don't cut the mustard. That's on the coach.Or the players just aren't there? The player pool at 9 isn't exactly overflowing and that's not down to Foster
Except it is. Robertson can win Super Trophies with Drummond -- who isn't even in the reckoning for the ABs. Brad Weber can play some amazing rugby, with the right game plan. (I loathe TJP with a passion, and can't way to see the back of him, but that's more about what a tool he is as a person.)
Robertson's hardly a lone exception. We can all cite coaches who just seem to get the best out of players. And other coaches who turn gold into, um, not gold.
It's no good saying that NZ isn't producing the quality of players we used to, when our Super and provincial teams are streaks ahead of everyone else. And when our rejects are starting players for other countries.
Our game plan seems to be, kick it as soon as you get it except in their 22, and hope to score from individual brilliance. It's a shit plan, and it deserves what it got last night. It isn't like Beauden was carving up when he was on, he kicked it even more than Mo'unga. It has to be the plan, not the players.
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@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@dan54 said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mofitzy_ said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew
Players of a known quantity are underperforming, new players don't cut the mustard. That's on the coach.Also, even if that doesn't solve everything, what other option is there?
Foster is the inbred grandson of a once great King. Only there because of what his ancestors did, and even his father wasn't all that great.
How about we all give credit to a very bloody great performance by the Irish! They were great, that was a bloody great test, and we were beaten by a better team. I obviously am a little disappointed but not going to go into depression!
I think test rugby is alive and well after seeing games like this!100% agree, but for the Fern the glass is always half empty - or completely empty in this case - and moaning about ABs players (or the coach) comes first. Ferners aren't good losers and become totally unreasonable.
You show me a good loser and I see a loser!
@sparky said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@dan54 said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mofitzy_ said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew
Players of a known quantity are underperforming, new players don't cut the mustard. That's on the coach.Also, even if that doesn't solve everything, what other option is there?
Foster is the inbred grandson of a once great King. Only there because of what his ancestors did, and even his father wasn't all that great.
How about we all give credit to a very bloody great performance by the Irish! They were great, that was a bloody great test, and we were beaten by a better team. I obviously am a little disappointed but not going to go into depression!
I think test rugby is alive and well after seeing games like this!100% agree, but for the Fern the glass is always half empty - or completely empty in this case - and moaning about ABs players (or the coach) comes first. Ferners aren't good losers and become totally unreasonable.
You show me a good loser and I see a loser!
Show me a bad one and I'll show you someone who's not a sportsman or women. If sports was meant to be certain I wouldn't bother!
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@akan004 said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Ireland played like a Schmidt-coached and drilled team to my ignorant eyes but with more steel in the attack and defense. Is that also the opinion of the Irish fans?
IMO Farrell is an excellent defense coach. Which is a bit surprising given how his son tackles.They played like Leinster. Leinster are an excellent team.
12 out of the 15 are from Leinster right? Basically Leinster whipped the ABs.
Combinations brings cohesion. Ireland played like a team that have played lots of times together. Today, they raised their Leinster levels up.
Funny in a way, because the ABs used to have that same feeling that they had that cohesion. It'll take time to get that back (unless key combinations like midfield, or half backs or back row are taken from the Super rugby teams).
Nonu and Smith at the Hurricanes. McCaw and Read at the Crusaders. Collins and So'oialo at the Hurricanes.
Could there be a potential all Blues back row forcing a rethink next year? Robinson/Papali'i/Sotutu?
Big year next year for Tupaea and ALB. Any other centre combinations with promise? Goodhue and Ennor perhaps?
Barrett is playing outside Christie next year at the Blues, no? That will help if Christie kicks on.
One thing that the AB coaches need to consider is playing players in the positions they have played in for the season. Yes, AB players are very good, but even v good players need consistency to get the best out of them. If Savea is to play no 8 for the ABs, he needs to play there for the Hurricanes. Same for Blackadder at 6 playing at Crusaders.
Pick the players with the right blend. If someone misses out for the benefit of the team, tough luck. They don't need to be shoe horned in. Jordie Barrett at fullback this year is one bright spot. He has played fullback for Hurricanes, shone, and brought that confidence and experience into the ABs.
Is it really that difficult to be a selector?
Combinations brings cohesion. Ireland played like a team that have played lots of times together. Today, they raised their Leinster levels up.
We used to be able to roll out teams with ten players rotated from the week before and play as if they were established. We did that for a decade.
I don't think it is the lack of combinations. I think it is that the players don't know what they are doing, or what they are doing is ineffective, and then the fact that they haven't played together in those positions makes it worse.
Before the game the Fern was happy that the team selected wasn't too bad. Now we say that it is the players?
It's pretty obviously the coaching and game plan. Chopping players around in positions is the coach, not the players.
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@canefan said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mofitzy_ said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Sickens me all the cowards who accept Foster as inevitable till after 2023. He can be gone by tomorrow if not for them.
Which cowards are these? I don't see anyone here happy with Foster. But our opinion doesn't matter anyway. The NZRFU don't care what we think, or they would have chosen Razor
Disagree with the Foster comment, that's a separate discussion. He's not flawless - a damn good coach, but not the messiah.
The bigger issue is that Foster got reappointed for 2 more years before this tour. We traversed it at the time in some detail; it was a weak decision. Bet NZR aren't so stoked now.
Deeper than Foster though is the insularity of NZ rugby. Feels very monocultural, innovation becoming frowned on, and we seem to want all the same style of players in all our professional teams. Big wins don't disguise the fact that good, physical sides (SA, Lions, Ireland, England and even Argentina) have had our number for some time, and we haven't stepped up.
Also, NH rugby has really lifted since 2015. They had to get better and they did. Players are now coming back from NH with enhanced skills, fitness and physicality. Super and RC are no longer the dominant premier competitions. IT's a real worry for me - that's the long term success right there; not just the current situation.
@nzzp said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@canefan said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Also, NH rugby has really lifted since 2015. They had to get better and they did. Players are now coming back from NH with enhanced skills, fitness and physicality. Super and RC are no longer the dominant premier competitions. IT's a real worry for me - that's the long term success right there; not just the current situation.
Anything to do with the quality of Southern Hemisphere coaches plying their trade up north?
It was only a few years ago we were ridiculing the Six Nations as a sub-standard competition but I think it may have even overtaken the Rugby Championship now as a spectacle
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While NZ sides by and large play the same style of footy, I mean for years our front row was only reading from the Cron book of scrummaging.
But I think the Crusaders have largely tried to play thier own way (more often good than bad) and often get criticised for it, but they play to win...kiwi fans have been lead down the path that winning ugly ain't the best way to win.
Hopefully Schmidt with his NH experience will give the blues another dimension, given it is a team chock full of runners, if they can get thier pack humming they could be awesome.
Is Gats back this year, to focus on the Chiefs now? He doesn't become a shit coach, but he needs to be involved, hands on not by zoom...zoom meetings suck.
So right now things are pretty shit, but hopefully the clouds look to be parting slightly and a glimmer of blue sky creeping through for super rugby to be a bit more of a breeding ground...then these good players end up in black aaaanndd...
We used to own the final quarter, even when behind we more often came back, now our bench is more often than not a big step down, less cohesion, no impact, full disruption.
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Ireland played like a Schmidt-coached and drilled team to my ignorant eyes but with more steel in the attack and defense. Is that also the opinion of the Irish fans?
IMO Farrell is an excellent defense coach. Which is a bit surprising given how his son tackles.@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Ireland played like a Schmidt-coached and drilled team to my ignorant eyes but with more steel in the attack and defense. Is that also the opinion of the Irish fans?
IMO Farrell is an excellent defense coach. Which is a bit surprising given how his son tackles.No. They stopped playing the Schmidt way at the end of the last 6 nations against England. Farrell tore up the Schmidt script and got them playing with pace and moving the ball more.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Ireland played like a Schmidt-coached and drilled team to my ignorant eyes but with more steel in the attack and defense. Is that also the opinion of the Irish fans?
IMO Farrell is an excellent defense coach. Which is a bit surprising given how his son tackles.No. They stopped playing the Schmidt way at the end of the last 6 nations against England. Farrell tore up the Schmidt script and got them playing with pace and moving the ball more.
@profitius said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Ireland played like a Schmidt-coached and drilled team to my ignorant eyes but with more steel in the attack and defense. Is that also the opinion of the Irish fans?
IMO Farrell is an excellent defense coach. Which is a bit surprising given how his son tackles.No. They stopped playing the Schmidt way at the end of the last 6 nations against England. Farrell tore up the Schmidt script and got them playing with pace and moving the ball more.
the fundamentals are still there. Great tackle/ruck technique, rush defence, structure. It's impressive.
