All Blacks 2022
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2022:
Not exactly - the idea is if the opposition defence is keyed in on a player (moreso than any other player) that then opens up more opportunities for others.
Only if the opposition defence is keyed up on that player more than any other player - and we don't yet know that's going to be the case until 2-3 more games. I hope it is, but honestly, at this stage, I'd happily just settle for a 12 who's consistently OK and doesn't get injured.
As for SBW I don't see the comparison - I recall being slightly disappointed with his test debut vs England given how much hype SBW came in with as he had been carving up the NPC for Canterbury - there was the odd glimpse in that game but was nowhere near the performance of Jordie - with SBW it was more of a realisation of 'test rugby is a different ball game to NPC for Canterbury so it's going to take some time'.
I do. SBW had played 2-3 seasons for Toulon at 12 & 13 under Tana; tutelage so was pretty used to the game by the time he made his debut at 12. But you're right that he was only OK to good against England - I meant to say Scotland where he got rave reviews. But the point, that he was exposed in his next Test, still stands.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2022:
Not exactly - the idea is if the opposition defence is keyed in on a player (moreso than any other player) that then opens up more opportunities for others.
Only if the opposition defence is keyed up on that player more than any other player - and we don't yet know that's going to be the case until 2-3 more games. I hope it is, but honestly, at this stage, I'd happily just settle for a 12 who's consistently OK and doesn't get injured.
As for SBW I don't see the comparison - I recall being slightly disappointed with his test debut vs England given how much hype SBW came in with as he had been carving up the NPC for Canterbury - there was the odd glimpse in that game but was nowhere near the performance of Jordie - with SBW it was more of a realisation of 'test rugby is a different ball game to NPC for Canterbury so it's going to take some time'.
I do. SBW had played 2-3 seasons for Toulon at 12 & 13 under Tana; tutelage so was pretty used to the game by the time he made his debut at 12. But you're right that he was only OK to good against England - I meant to say Scotland where he got rave reviews. But the point, that he was exposed in his next Test, still stands.
Who didn’t get rave reviews playing against Scotland in those days.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2022:
Not exactly - the idea is if the opposition defence is keyed in on a player (moreso than any other player) that then opens up more opportunities for others.
Only if the opposition defence is keyed up on that player more than any other player - and we don't yet know that's going to be the case until 2-3 more games. I hope it is, but honestly, at this stage, I'd happily just settle for a 12 who's consistently OK and doesn't get injured.
As for SBW I don't see the comparison - I recall being slightly disappointed with his test debut vs England given how much hype SBW came in with as he had been carving up the NPC for Canterbury - there was the odd glimpse in that game but was nowhere near the performance of Jordie - with SBW it was more of a realisation of 'test rugby is a different ball game to NPC for Canterbury so it's going to take some time'.
I do. SBW had played 2-3 seasons for Toulon at 12 & 13 under Tana; tutelage so was pretty used to the game by the time he made his debut at 12. But you're right that he was only OK to good against England - I meant to say Scotland where he got rave reviews. But the point, that he was exposed in his next Test, still stands.
Who didn’t get rave reviews playing against Scotland in those days.
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2022:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2022:
Not exactly - the idea is if the opposition defence is keyed in on a player (moreso than any other player) that then opens up more opportunities for others.
Only if the opposition defence is keyed up on that player more than any other player - and we don't yet know that's going to be the case until 2-3 more games. I hope it is, but honestly, at this stage, I'd happily just settle for a 12 who's consistently OK and doesn't get injured.
As for SBW I don't see the comparison - I recall being slightly disappointed with his test debut vs England given how much hype SBW came in with as he had been carving up the NPC for Canterbury - there was the odd glimpse in that game but was nowhere near the performance of Jordie - with SBW it was more of a realisation of 'test rugby is a different ball game to NPC for Canterbury so it's going to take some time'.
I do. SBW had played 2-3 seasons for Toulon at 12 & 13 under Tana; tutelage so was pretty used to the game by the time he made his debut at 12. But you're right that he was only OK to good against England - I meant to say Scotland where he got rave reviews. But the point, that he was exposed in his next Test, still stands.
Who didn’t get rave reviews playing against Scotland in those days.
This is their year.
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@Victor-Meldrew pure physics says Jordie is a better option at 12 for that than Havili, without taking into account all those other factors, so as I said earlier, he just needs to be given more time there to see if he is the answer.
At the back end of a won/lost test isnt the best way to determine that, he will need to start there as well
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2022:
he just needs to be given more time there to see if he is the answer.
That's what I'm saying as well. Way too early to judge.
At the back end of a won/lost test isnt the best way to determine that, he will need to start there as well
There's the problem for the Foster Co-Op. Not many Tests before RW2023 to find out and bed players in
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2022:
he just needs to be given more time there to see if he is the answer.
That's what I'm saying as well. Way too early to judge.
At the back end of a won/lost test isnt the best way to determine that, he will need to start there as well
There's the problem for the Foster Co-Op. Not many Tests before RW2023 to find out and bed players in
@Victor-Meldrew especially when they wasted plenty this last year or so barely making any changes unless forced...
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2022:
he just needs to be given more time there to see if he is the answer.
That's what I'm saying as well. Way too early to judge.
At the back end of a won/lost test isnt the best way to determine that, he will need to start there as well
There's the problem for the Foster Co-Op. Not many Tests before RW2023 to find out and bed players in
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
There's the problem for the Foster Co-Op. Not many Tests before RW2023 to find out and bed players in
Well, what can you say? As Foster only has himself to blame for that.
It had taken Foster 3 years to come to his senses and make the nessecary changes required for both his starting & replacement front row.
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@Victor-Meldrew especially when they wasted plenty this last year or so barely making any changes unless forced...
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2022:
@Victor-Meldrew especially when they wasted plenty this last year or so barely making any changes unless forced...
Yeah. Jordie only really prospered when Foster was forced to put him at fullback....
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Size matters in rugby, a lot. The next most important factor is how aggressive a player is in contact. Jordie has both size and aggression so is always going to be a threat both with ball in hand and on defense.
The problem with Havili is when you pair him with Mo'unga you have two small blokes that can't bend the line or make strong/dominant tackles, which puts us on the back foot a lot as teams can target their channel. They are both very well suited to the more open Super rugby, but when paired at test level become a liability.
I don't think we can afford to play them together, in fact I don't think Havili should play 12 again at test level, by far his best position is 15 where he has more space.
The focus now should be giving ALB, Jordie and Rieko as much gametime as possible as they are our 3 best midfielders by miles. Any games given to Havili there are a waste of time, and we don't have much time left before the RWC.
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Size matters in rugby, a lot. The next most important factor is how aggressive a player is in contact. Jordie has both size and aggression so is always going to be a threat both with ball in hand and on defense.
The problem with Havili is when you pair him with Mo'unga you have two small blokes that can't bend the line or make strong/dominant tackles, which puts us on the back foot a lot as teams can target their channel. They are both very well suited to the more open Super rugby, but when paired at test level become a liability.
I don't think we can afford to play them together, in fact I don't think Havili should play 12 again at test level, by far his best position is 15 where he has more space.
The focus now should be giving ALB, Jordie and Rieko as much gametime as possible as they are our 3 best midfielders by miles. Any games given to Havili there are a waste of time, and we don't have much time left before the RWC.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2022:
Size matters in rugby, a lot. The next most important factor is how aggressive a player is in contact. Jordie has both size and aggression so is always going to be a threat both with ball in hand and on defense.
The problem with Havili is when you pair him with Mo'unga you have two small blokes that can't bend the line or make strong/dominant tackles, which puts us on the back foot a lot as teams can target their channel. They are both very well suited to the more open Super rugby, but when paired at test level become a liability.
I don't think we can afford to play them together, in fact I don't think Havili should play 12 again at test level, by far his best position is 15 where he has more space.
The focus now should be giving ALB, Jordie and Rieko as much gametime as possible as they are our 3 best midfielders by miles. Any games given to Havili there are a waste of time, and we don't have much time left before the RWC.
Good post, thanks, but we need a 4th midfielder, don't we?
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Size matters in rugby, a lot. The next most important factor is how aggressive a player is in contact. Jordie has both size and aggression so is always going to be a threat both with ball in hand and on defense.
The problem with Havili is when you pair him with Mo'unga you have two small blokes that can't bend the line or make strong/dominant tackles, which puts us on the back foot a lot as teams can target their channel. They are both very well suited to the more open Super rugby, but when paired at test level become a liability.
I don't think we can afford to play them together, in fact I don't think Havili should play 12 again at test level, by far his best position is 15 where he has more space.
The focus now should be giving ALB, Jordie and Rieko as much gametime as possible as they are our 3 best midfielders by miles. Any games given to Havili there are a waste of time, and we don't have much time left before the RWC.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2022:
The focus now should be giving ALB, Jordie and Rieko as much gametime as possible as they are our 3 best midfielders by miles. Any games given to Havili there are a waste of time, and we don't have much time left before the RWC.
Just watch the Foz meister, Jordie will be nowhere near the midfield, he like Havili's 'triple threat' :face_vomiting:
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2022:
Size matters in rugby, a lot. The next most important factor is how aggressive a player is in contact. Jordie has both size and aggression so is always going to be a threat both with ball in hand and on defense.
The problem with Havili is when you pair him with Mo'unga you have two small blokes that can't bend the line or make strong/dominant tackles, which puts us on the back foot a lot as teams can target their channel. They are both very well suited to the more open Super rugby, but when paired at test level become a liability.
I don't think we can afford to play them together, in fact I don't think Havili should play 12 again at test level, by far his best position is 15 where he has more space.
The focus now should be giving ALB, Jordie and Rieko as much gametime as possible as they are our 3 best midfielders by miles. Any games given to Havili there are a waste of time, and we don't have much time left before the RWC.
Good post, thanks, but we need a 4th midfielder, don't we?
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2022:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2022:
Size matters in rugby, a lot. The next most important factor is how aggressive a player is in contact. Jordie has both size and aggression so is always going to be a threat both with ball in hand and on defense.
The problem with Havili is when you pair him with Mo'unga you have two small blokes that can't bend the line or make strong/dominant tackles, which puts us on the back foot a lot as teams can target their channel. They are both very well suited to the more open Super rugby, but when paired at test level become a liability.
I don't think we can afford to play them together, in fact I don't think Havili should play 12 again at test level, by far his best position is 15 where he has more space.
The focus now should be giving ALB, Jordie and Rieko as much gametime as possible as they are our 3 best midfielders by miles. Any games given to Havili there are a waste of time, and we don't have much time left before the RWC.
Good post, thanks, but we need a 4th midfielder, don't we?
Yeah, but not in the 23, ALB on the bench covers both positions to a very high standard. Reece on the bench can slot in if disaster strikes. Ideally we'd have a 4th up to speed in the squad, but given where we are and where we need to get to by the RWC, with little time, we're gonna have to start loading some eggs into baskets and hope like hell we don't get injuries to key positions. We're not gonna be able to build the depth we need across the board in time.
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all this chat of depth is so overrated. How many more players do we need?
Right now we have two guys who can play fullback to a decent level.
3 really good wings.
1 nailed on centre, one guy who has played well there previously
3 guys who would do a good job at 12
2 guys at 10
2 guys at 9
8 is skinny, but Sotutu appears to have the tools
2 guys at 7
2 guys at 6 and a lock who can go there too
3 locks
Props appear to have the rotation sorted
Hooker has a genuine star to start and two guys with experience behindThat's a world cup squad nailed on. They also seem to know who the best 23 is. And the squad has guys who can slot in.
Generally what people mean is "we are running out of tests for my favourite players to get a run and prove to everyone that i knew best"
If he was rotating players every week people would be on here lamenting that "we are running out of tests to build combinations!! pick and stick!"
The team is what the team is going to be. If we lose a bunch of players at the same time we'll probably be fucked. But that is the same for every other side in world rugby.
(aside: the deepest World Cup squad ever assembled also got bundled out in the quarters in that country's worst ever result. depth is overrated)
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Just to counter "we don't have enough tests"
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De Groot didn't play the Irish series so in the space of 6 TRC tests is our starting loosehead (with Moody injured)
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Lomax since TRC has come on leaps and bounds (6 tests)
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Sevu Reece played 3 tests (including the Tongan game) before RWC 2019
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NMS played 2 tests before RWC 2015
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It took probably 5 - 6 tests last year to realise Samisoni is built for test rugby - it was clear by the end of year tour last year he was our best hooker
Etc etc.
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all this chat of depth is so overrated. How many more players do we need?
Right now we have two guys who can play fullback to a decent level.
3 really good wings.
1 nailed on centre, one guy who has played well there previously
3 guys who would do a good job at 12
2 guys at 10
2 guys at 9
8 is skinny, but Sotutu appears to have the tools
2 guys at 7
2 guys at 6 and a lock who can go there too
3 locks
Props appear to have the rotation sorted
Hooker has a genuine star to start and two guys with experience behindThat's a world cup squad nailed on. They also seem to know who the best 23 is. And the squad has guys who can slot in.
Generally what people mean is "we are running out of tests for my favourite players to get a run and prove to everyone that i knew best"
If he was rotating players every week people would be on here lamenting that "we are running out of tests to build combinations!! pick and stick!"
The team is what the team is going to be. If we lose a bunch of players at the same time we'll probably be fucked. But that is the same for every other side in world rugby.
(aside: the deepest World Cup squad ever assembled also got bundled out in the quarters in that country's worst ever result. depth is overrated)
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
Generally what people mean is "we are running out of tests for my favourite players to get a run and prove to everyone that i knew best"
Exactly right bro. Just to add, on one hand there is lamenting that there aren’t enough tests for such and such to get experience etc but then on the other hand one test is enough for such and such to be the answer!
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
Generally what people mean is "we are running out of tests for my favourite players to get a run and prove to everyone that i knew best"
Exactly right bro. Just to add, on one hand there is lamenting that there aren’t enough tests for such and such to get experience etc but then on the other hand one test is enough for such and such to be the answer!
@ACT-Crusader i think part of it is we all remember the old adage that to win the world cup you ned x number of players who would be named in a World XV
I'm not sure that holds true any more, given the spread of talent. The top sides are all very even, and there are very good players scattered across the top 10. Hell, Kerevi would be the 12 and the Wallabies are what? 23rd or something? A couple of Argentinians would be in the conversation as well.
Turn up, have your identified best 23 fit and firing, and you are a shout. And hope the draw works out in your favour.
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@ACT-Crusader i think part of it is we all remember the old adage that to win the world cup you ned x number of players who would be named in a World XV
I'm not sure that holds true any more, given the spread of talent. The top sides are all very even, and there are very good players scattered across the top 10. Hell, Kerevi would be the 12 and the Wallabies are what? 23rd or something? A couple of Argentinians would be in the conversation as well.
Turn up, have your identified best 23 fit and firing, and you are a shout. And hope the draw works out in your favour.
@mariner4life I agree. And given that evenness, I don’t think recent form or team performances going into the RWC is the guide we think it is. Draw and health in the squad during the campaign are probably far more important.
To take nothing away from the occasion and the drama and feeling that came from the 2011 final, and I don’t want this to come across as some arrogant kiwi talk, but a fit DC in that final and I think that game goes a bit different.
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@mariner4life I agree. And given that evenness, I don’t think recent form or team performances going into the RWC is the guide we think it is. Draw and health in the squad during the campaign are probably far more important.
To take nothing away from the occasion and the drama and feeling that came from the 2011 final, and I don’t want this to come across as some arrogant kiwi talk, but a fit DC in that final and I think that game goes a bit different.
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2022:
@mariner4life I agree. And given that evenness, I don’t think recent form or team performances going into the RWC is the guide we think it is. Draw and health in the squad during the campaign are probably far more important.
To take nothing away from the occasion and the drama and feeling that came from the 2011 final, and I don’t want this to come across as some arrogant kiwi talk, but a fit DC in that final and I think that game goes a bit different.
hell, Dagg doesn't hungus and passing to Nonu on the run and that game goes very differently.
The 3 years leading up to a World Cup matter far less than it's made out. Basically it has become a "get out of jail free" card for losing coaches.
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@mariner4life I agree. And given that evenness, I don’t think recent form or team performances going into the RWC is the guide we think it is. Draw and health in the squad during the campaign are probably far more important.
To take nothing away from the occasion and the drama and feeling that came from the 2011 final, and I don’t want this to come across as some arrogant kiwi talk, but a fit DC in that final and I think that game goes a bit different.
@ACT-Crusader IIRC, Graham Henry said that Carter would be worth 20 additional points in that game.
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@ACT-Crusader i think part of it is we all remember the old adage that to win the world cup you ned x number of players who would be named in a World XV
I'm not sure that holds true any more, given the spread of talent. The top sides are all very even, and there are very good players scattered across the top 10. Hell, Kerevi would be the 12 and the Wallabies are what? 23rd or something? A couple of Argentinians would be in the conversation as well.
Turn up, have your identified best 23 fit and firing, and you are a shout. And hope the draw works out in your favour.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
@ACT-Crusader i think part of it is we all remember the old adage that to win the world cup you ned x number of players who would be named in a World XV
I'm not sure that holds true any more, given the spread of talent. The top sides are all very even, and there are very good players scattered across the top 10. Hell, Kerevi would be the 12 and the Wallabies are what? 23rd or something? A couple of Argentinians would be in the conversation as well.
Turn up, have your identified best 23 fit and firing, and you are a shout. And hope the draw works out in your favour.
The draw part is my biggest concern , have a really tough quarter final , and its a big ask to do it for another 2 consecutive games compared to starting off the knockout phase with a less intense quarter
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all this chat of depth is so overrated. How many more players do we need?
Right now we have two guys who can play fullback to a decent level.
3 really good wings.
1 nailed on centre, one guy who has played well there previously
3 guys who would do a good job at 12
2 guys at 10
2 guys at 9
8 is skinny, but Sotutu appears to have the tools
2 guys at 7
2 guys at 6 and a lock who can go there too
3 locks
Props appear to have the rotation sorted
Hooker has a genuine star to start and two guys with experience behindThat's a world cup squad nailed on. They also seem to know who the best 23 is. And the squad has guys who can slot in.
Generally what people mean is "we are running out of tests for my favourite players to get a run and prove to everyone that i knew best"
If he was rotating players every week people would be on here lamenting that "we are running out of tests to build combinations!! pick and stick!"
The team is what the team is going to be. If we lose a bunch of players at the same time we'll probably be fucked. But that is the same for every other side in world rugby.
(aside: the deepest World Cup squad ever assembled also got bundled out in the quarters in that country's worst ever result. depth is overrated)
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
8 is skinny, but Sotutu appears to have the tools
Even that is not as bad as people have been claiming
Yes Sotutu needs more game time. Hopefully that happens on the EOYT
The 3rd option is Ioane. He subbed on twice at no 8 in the Championship. The first time barely counted because SF got a YC immediately after so it wasn't time as a regular 8. The second time he was tidy off the base in the buildup to the winning try vs Aus. He has started almost 50 times in that position at SR level
Each of the loose forward positions have the same cover - 2 specialists and 3rd option who is a specialist in another position
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T Tim forked this topic on
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@mariner4life I agree. And given that evenness, I don’t think recent form or team performances going into the RWC is the guide we think it is. Draw and health in the squad during the campaign are probably far more important.
To take nothing away from the occasion and the drama and feeling that came from the 2011 final, and I don’t want this to come across as some arrogant kiwi talk, but a fit DC in that final and I think that game goes a bit different.
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2022:
To take nothing away from the occasion and the drama and feeling that came from the 2011 final
I threw out my old sofa a few months ago, and the teeth marks from that game were still there...
But back to your point about the draw and health, I'd add team spirit and momentum as being just as, if not more, important. The team itself looks way more together than at the start of the season and seem to have a lot of faith in the coaching setup - hope the EOYT builds on the momentum side of things.
