Foster, Robertson etc
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
@Machpants said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
The Team was lost prior to Schmidt and Ryan. Now the backs are attacking with purpose, our set piece is looking a lot better.
Once again you're arguing a Head Coach (good or bad) doesn't have much impact on team performance. Which, given the way some on here fetishize Roberston as an AB Head Coach, is a bit illogical - if not weird.
Just because one head coach has fuck all impact now new assistants have been forced on him, does not mean all head coaches do nothing.
I'm not saying I totally agree, but it's not weird. Foster is an ineffective head coach, and his team shit as an abs team ever had been. But now he's been forced to move away from his choices as assistants, the abs are improving.
Sorry, but it's incredibly weird thinking to say a head coach has no impact on results and in the same breath argue a new Head Coach will improve things.
Peter De Villiers as Boks coach (2008-2011) - it was well known that he couldn't coach for shit & the assistants did essentially all the coaching for him. Foster appears much the same.
De Villiers started out OK and the Boks faded badly in 2010-11. So if you are saying his assistants did all the work, you're arguing De Villiers wasn't to blame for those latter poor results either, and his assistants should have carried the can.
Which is a bonkers argument when you look at it.
Not really. Even the players admitted that the assistants Gary Gold and Dick Muir were ultimately responsible for the success of that era & said De Villiers was pretty useless as a coach.
Every different to Foster then when you consider the high praise he gets from players like Ritchie, Ardie and Sam Whitelock.
Tbf, Mark "never made the playoffs despite having absolute power" Hammett seemed to have plenty of love from the players he didn't send packing.
I've no doubt that perhaps one-on-one Foster has plenty of wisdom to impart. He was a decent player himself and rose through the coaching ranks very quickly. Clearly he has something of value. Unfortunately it's patently obvious that he's not a very good head coach. The evidence obviously being the Chiefs and ABs. If I can give him credit for something it's having at least been humble enough to accept the changes that clearly needed to be made. While they came very belatedly and allowed him to save his job, many would probably have gone the full bottom lip and had a tanty. Maybe he does that in private but I for one feel a hell of alot better with Schmidt and Ryan holding his hand. It's a pretty ridiculous situation but probably the best outcome before handing over to Razor for fresh start (hopefully
) after the RWC.May be. But it's got bugger-all to do with the ludicrous idea that when the AB's lose or the forwards play like shit, Foster, as Head Coach, should take the blame, but when they win, it's all down to the assistants and nothing to do with the Head Coach.
Moar and Plum were the scapegoats post Ireland. Ryan and Schmidt get the plaudits.
So now you're arguing Foster shouldn't take responsibility for the Ireland debacle as it was down to Moar and Plumtree.
Horseshit. He's the head coach. He takes responsibility for the Ireland debacle and gets the credit for winning the RC & Bledisloe (again)
Foster has a 5/4 win ratio this year and by all accounts is still on tract to list 2 of 4 on the EOYT which, in itself, will be another record.
"By all accounts"? So no-one, absolutely no-one, is thinking they'll do better than 50% eh?
You keep swinging and missing. Foster should have gone with the assistants. New boys come in, they play better. Ironic.
Haven't seen nor heard of anyone thinking we'll do good on the EOYT. Almost worth it though to see you spark out.
@Joans-Town-Jones said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
@Machpants said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
The Team was lost prior to Schmidt and Ryan. Now the backs are attacking with purpose, our set piece is looking a lot better.
Once again you're arguing a Head Coach (good or bad) doesn't have much impact on team performance. Which, given the way some on here fetishize Roberston as an AB Head Coach, is a bit illogical - if not weird.
Just because one head coach has fuck all impact now new assistants have been forced on him, does not mean all head coaches do nothing.
I'm not saying I totally agree, but it's not weird. Foster is an ineffective head coach, and his team shit as an abs team ever had been. But now he's been forced to move away from his choices as assistants, the abs are improving.
Sorry, but it's incredibly weird thinking to say a head coach has no impact on results and in the same breath argue a new Head Coach will improve things.
Peter De Villiers as Boks coach (2008-2011) - it was well known that he couldn't coach for shit & the assistants did essentially all the coaching for him. Foster appears much the same.
De Villiers started out OK and the Boks faded badly in 2010-11. So if you are saying his assistants did all the work, you're arguing De Villiers wasn't to blame for those latter poor results either, and his assistants should have carried the can.
Which is a bonkers argument when you look at it.
Not really. Even the players admitted that the assistants Gary Gold and Dick Muir were ultimately responsible for the success of that era & said De Villiers was pretty useless as a coach.
Every different to Foster then when you consider the high praise he gets from players like Ritchie, Ardie and Sam Whitelock.
Tbf, Mark "never made the playoffs despite having absolute power" Hammett seemed to have plenty of love from the players he didn't send packing.
I've no doubt that perhaps one-on-one Foster has plenty of wisdom to impart. He was a decent player himself and rose through the coaching ranks very quickly. Clearly he has something of value. Unfortunately it's patently obvious that he's not a very good head coach. The evidence obviously being the Chiefs and ABs. If I can give him credit for something it's having at least been humble enough to accept the changes that clearly needed to be made. While they came very belatedly and allowed him to save his job, many would probably have gone the full bottom lip and had a tanty. Maybe he does that in private but I for one feel a hell of alot better with Schmidt and Ryan holding his hand. It's a pretty ridiculous situation but probably the best outcome before handing over to Razor for fresh start (hopefully
) after the RWC.May be. But it's got bugger-all to do with the ludicrous idea that when the AB's lose or the forwards play like shit, Foster, as Head Coach, should take the blame, but when they win, it's all down to the assistants and nothing to do with the Head Coach.
Moar and Plum were the scapegoats post Ireland. Ryan and Schmidt get the plaudits.
So now you're arguing Foster shouldn't take responsibility for the Ireland debacle as it was down to Moar and Plumtree.
Horseshit. He's the head coach. He takes responsibility for the Ireland debacle and gets the credit for winning the RC & Bledisloe (again)
Foster has a 5/4 win ratio this year and by all accounts is still on tract to list 2 of 4 on the EOYT which, in itself, will be another record.
"By all accounts"? So no-one, absolutely no-one, is thinking they'll do better than 50% eh?
Haven't seen nor heard of anyone thinking we'll do good on the EOYT. Almost worth it though to see you spark out.
Conversely a dominant 100% record would be awesome for the same reason.
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@Joans-Town-Jones said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
@Machpants said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
The Team was lost prior to Schmidt and Ryan. Now the backs are attacking with purpose, our set piece is looking a lot better.
Once again you're arguing a Head Coach (good or bad) doesn't have much impact on team performance. Which, given the way some on here fetishize Roberston as an AB Head Coach, is a bit illogical - if not weird.
Just because one head coach has fuck all impact now new assistants have been forced on him, does not mean all head coaches do nothing.
I'm not saying I totally agree, but it's not weird. Foster is an ineffective head coach, and his team shit as an abs team ever had been. But now he's been forced to move away from his choices as assistants, the abs are improving.
Sorry, but it's incredibly weird thinking to say a head coach has no impact on results and in the same breath argue a new Head Coach will improve things.
Peter De Villiers as Boks coach (2008-2011) - it was well known that he couldn't coach for shit & the assistants did essentially all the coaching for him. Foster appears much the same.
De Villiers started out OK and the Boks faded badly in 2010-11. So if you are saying his assistants did all the work, you're arguing De Villiers wasn't to blame for those latter poor results either, and his assistants should have carried the can.
Which is a bonkers argument when you look at it.
Not really. Even the players admitted that the assistants Gary Gold and Dick Muir were ultimately responsible for the success of that era & said De Villiers was pretty useless as a coach.
Every different to Foster then when you consider the high praise he gets from players like Ritchie, Ardie and Sam Whitelock.
Tbf, Mark "never made the playoffs despite having absolute power" Hammett seemed to have plenty of love from the players he didn't send packing.
I've no doubt that perhaps one-on-one Foster has plenty of wisdom to impart. He was a decent player himself and rose through the coaching ranks very quickly. Clearly he has something of value. Unfortunately it's patently obvious that he's not a very good head coach. The evidence obviously being the Chiefs and ABs. If I can give him credit for something it's having at least been humble enough to accept the changes that clearly needed to be made. While they came very belatedly and allowed him to save his job, many would probably have gone the full bottom lip and had a tanty. Maybe he does that in private but I for one feel a hell of alot better with Schmidt and Ryan holding his hand. It's a pretty ridiculous situation but probably the best outcome before handing over to Razor for fresh start (hopefully
) after the RWC.May be. But it's got bugger-all to do with the ludicrous idea that when the AB's lose or the forwards play like shit, Foster, as Head Coach, should take the blame, but when they win, it's all down to the assistants and nothing to do with the Head Coach.
Moar and Plum were the scapegoats post Ireland. Ryan and Schmidt get the plaudits.
So now you're arguing Foster shouldn't take responsibility for the Ireland debacle as it was down to Moar and Plumtree.
Horseshit. He's the head coach. He takes responsibility for the Ireland debacle and gets the credit for winning the RC & Bledisloe (again)
Foster has a 5/4 win ratio this year and by all accounts is still on tract to list 2 of 4 on the EOYT which, in itself, will be another record.
"By all accounts"? So no-one, absolutely no-one, is thinking they'll do better than 50% eh?
Haven't seen nor heard of anyone thinking we'll do good on the EOYT. Almost worth it though to see you spark out.
Conversely a dominant 100% record would be awesome for the same reason.
@Joans-Town-Jones said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
@Machpants said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
The Team was lost prior to Schmidt and Ryan. Now the backs are attacking with purpose, our set piece is looking a lot better.
Once again you're arguing a Head Coach (good or bad) doesn't have much impact on team performance. Which, given the way some on here fetishize Roberston as an AB Head Coach, is a bit illogical - if not weird.
Just because one head coach has fuck all impact now new assistants have been forced on him, does not mean all head coaches do nothing.
I'm not saying I totally agree, but it's not weird. Foster is an ineffective head coach, and his team shit as an abs team ever had been. But now he's been forced to move away from his choices as assistants, the abs are improving.
Sorry, but it's incredibly weird thinking to say a head coach has no impact on results and in the same breath argue a new Head Coach will improve things.
Peter De Villiers as Boks coach (2008-2011) - it was well known that he couldn't coach for shit & the assistants did essentially all the coaching for him. Foster appears much the same.
De Villiers started out OK and the Boks faded badly in 2010-11. So if you are saying his assistants did all the work, you're arguing De Villiers wasn't to blame for those latter poor results either, and his assistants should have carried the can.
Which is a bonkers argument when you look at it.
Not really. Even the players admitted that the assistants Gary Gold and Dick Muir were ultimately responsible for the success of that era & said De Villiers was pretty useless as a coach.
Every different to Foster then when you consider the high praise he gets from players like Ritchie, Ardie and Sam Whitelock.
Tbf, Mark "never made the playoffs despite having absolute power" Hammett seemed to have plenty of love from the players he didn't send packing.
I've no doubt that perhaps one-on-one Foster has plenty of wisdom to impart. He was a decent player himself and rose through the coaching ranks very quickly. Clearly he has something of value. Unfortunately it's patently obvious that he's not a very good head coach. The evidence obviously being the Chiefs and ABs. If I can give him credit for something it's having at least been humble enough to accept the changes that clearly needed to be made. While they came very belatedly and allowed him to save his job, many would probably have gone the full bottom lip and had a tanty. Maybe he does that in private but I for one feel a hell of alot better with Schmidt and Ryan holding his hand. It's a pretty ridiculous situation but probably the best outcome before handing over to Razor for fresh start (hopefully
) after the RWC.May be. But it's got bugger-all to do with the ludicrous idea that when the AB's lose or the forwards play like shit, Foster, as Head Coach, should take the blame, but when they win, it's all down to the assistants and nothing to do with the Head Coach.
Moar and Plum were the scapegoats post Ireland. Ryan and Schmidt get the plaudits.
So now you're arguing Foster shouldn't take responsibility for the Ireland debacle as it was down to Moar and Plumtree.
Horseshit. He's the head coach. He takes responsibility for the Ireland debacle and gets the credit for winning the RC & Bledisloe (again)
Foster has a 5/4 win ratio this year and by all accounts is still on tract to list 2 of 4 on the EOYT which, in itself, will be another record.
"By all accounts"? So no-one, absolutely no-one, is thinking they'll do better than 50% eh?
Haven't seen nor heard of anyone thinking we'll do good on the EOYT. Almost worth it though to see you spark out.
Conversely a dominant 100% record would be awesome for the same reason.
I'm predicting the reply to this post and will let you know when it lands.
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Tell you one thing, there's no fucking way this thread gets nominated for Thread of the Year at the Fernies.
It's become a massive bore.
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@mariner4life said in Foster:
@Kruse your reply tells me you embrace mediocrity.
embrace it? I am constantly striving for it!
"Aim low. And miss!"
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
Get a grip. Just because people don't buy into the "Robertson is the Savior and/or the Greatest Rugby Coach in the World" fetish, doesn't mean they have an anti-Robertson bias.
Or if they support Roberson, it doesn't mean they think he is the Savoir/Greatest Coach in the World Fetish, they just think he would do a better job than Foster. The bar isn't that high.
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
Get a grip. Just because people don't buy into the "Robertson is the Savior and/or the Greatest Rugby Coach in the World" fetish, doesn't mean they have an anti-Robertson bias.
Or if they support Roberson, it doesn't mean they think he is the Savoir/Greatest Coach in the World Fetish, they just think he would do a better job than Foster. The bar isn't that high.
Mind you we had an awful lot were yelling that Rennie should of get the gig too, they seem to of gone quieter lately. I must admit if I had been asked (fortunately they don't ask us plebs) I would of picked Jamie Joseph (but like Rennie aleardy had a gig), but like us all we have favouries.
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@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
Get a grip. Just because people don't buy into the "Robertson is the Savior and/or the Greatest Rugby Coach in the World" fetish, doesn't mean they have an anti-Robertson bias.
Or if they support Roberson, it doesn't mean they think he is the Savoir/Greatest Coach in the World Fetish, they just think he would do a better job than Foster. The bar isn't that high.
Mind you we had an awful lot were yelling that Rennie should of get the gig too, they seem to of gone quieter lately. I must admit if I had been asked (fortunately they don't ask us plebs) I would of picked Jamie Joseph (but like Rennie aleardy had a gig), but like us all we have favouries.
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@Dan54 I'd still have Rennie or Joseph over Foster. Any time.
I don't have a problem with that NZZP, as I said I liked Joseph, and would have him over Rennie. I think he has made a bit of difference to Japan, actually got them to QF in WC. Rennie I don't dislike by any means, but can't actually see a lot (if any) to Wallabies since he took over, so reserve judgement. But regardless neither were available.
I not for or against Foster either, I wasn't part of board that interviewed him etc, so don't know what or wasn't said to get him appointed. -
Thought this might sum up some of the views here!
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This may not be a popular view, but listening to Foster in last fortnight, he comes across to me as more driven, with a hint of an edge.
Much more like a head coach should. -
This may not be a popular view, but listening to Foster in last fortnight, he comes across to me as more driven, with a hint of an edge.
Much more like a head coach should.@pakman About as popular as a pound of pickled pork in Jeruselum!
He has always said the right generic soundbites though, all the way through the shite he has been in charge of. -
This may not be a popular view, but listening to Foster in last fortnight, he comes across to me as more driven, with a hint of an edge.
Much more like a head coach should.This may not be a popular view, but listening to Foster in last fortnight, he comes across to me as more driven, with a hint of an edge.
Much more like a head coach should.The guy still views RTS as a second-five eight. He also reiterated constantly that he only viewed Jordie Barett as a fullback (and stubbornly persisted with him as an ineffective back three option in 2020) until forced into moving him into midfield due to injuries. Foster has no imagination, no sense of potential and needs everything handed to him on a plate. You see that essentially all of Foster's big "payed-off" selections have been directly the result of his hand being forced (Lomax, Taukei'aho, Barrett, DeGroot, Newell, etc..) not through some brilliant intuition, inspiration or any degree of foresight...
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This may not be a popular view, but listening to Foster in last fortnight, he comes across to me as more driven, with a hint of an edge.
Much more like a head coach should.The guy still views RTS as a second-five eight. He also reiterated constantly that he only viewed Jordie Barett as a fullback (and stubbornly persisted with him as an ineffective back three option in 2020) until forced into moving him into midfield due to injuries. Foster has no imagination, no sense of potential and needs everything handed to him on a plate. You see that essentially all of Foster's big "payed-off" selections have been directly the result of his hand being forced (Lomax, Taukei'aho, Barrett, DeGroot, Newell, etc..) not through some brilliant intuition, inspiration or any degree of foresight...
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This may not be a popular view, but listening to Foster in last fortnight, he comes across to me as more driven, with a hint of an edge.
Much more like a head coach should.The guy still views RTS as a second-five eight. He also reiterated constantly that he only viewed Jordie Barett as a fullback (and stubbornly persisted with him as an ineffective back three option in 2020) until forced into moving him into midfield due to injuries. Foster has no imagination, no sense of potential and needs everything handed to him on a plate. You see that essentially all of Foster's big "payed-off" selections have been directly the result of his hand being forced (Lomax, Taukei'aho, Barrett, DeGroot, Newell, etc..) not through some brilliant intuition, inspiration or any degree of foresight...
@kiwi_expat said in Foster:
The guy still views RTS as a second-five eight.
As does Leon McDonald. What do you know that Foster and McDonald don't?
he only viewed Jordie Barett as a fullback (and stubbornly persisted with him as an ineffective back three option in 2020) until forced into moving him into midfield due to injuries.
Considering Jordie was a success story in 2021 at FB and pretty much world-class against both SH and NH teams, it wasn't stubborn to keep him there - it was playing the best AB Test fullback at, well, fullback. And I wouldn't get too carried away about Jordie being the new Nonu after one game at 12 against some pretty ineffective Oz defence. Let's see how he goes (hopefully well) up against some decent NH sides.
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@kiwi_expat said in Foster:
The guy still views RTS as a second-five eight.
As does Leon McDonald. What do you know that Foster and McDonald don't?
he only viewed Jordie Barett as a fullback (and stubbornly persisted with him as an ineffective back three option in 2020) until forced into moving him into midfield due to injuries.
Considering Jordie was a success story in 2021 at FB and pretty much world-class against both SH and NH teams, it wasn't stubborn to keep him there - it was playing the best AB Test fullback at, well, fullback. And I wouldn't get too carried away about Jordie being the new Nonu after one game at 12 against some pretty ineffective Oz defence. Let's see how he goes (hopefully well) up against some decent NH sides.
@Victor-Meldrew I’m all for seeing more of Jordie at 12 , but yeah it’s easy to forget now how well he played last season as a test fullback. Was probably one of the few success stories .
Wasn’t that outrageous imo to play him there again .
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@Victor-Meldrew I’m all for seeing more of Jordie at 12 , but yeah it’s easy to forget now how well he played last season as a test fullback. Was probably one of the few success stories .
Wasn’t that outrageous imo to play him there again .
@kiwiinmelb said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew I’m all for seeing more of Jordie at 12 , but yeah it’s easy to forget now how well he played last season as a test fullback. Was probably one of the few success stories .
Wasn’t that outrageous imo to play him there again .
I don't think anyone here would be quibbling about JB playing 15 if we had a steady 12 that was kicking ass or even just clearly growing into the role. Instead we have Havili and QT, neither of whom have stamped their mark, RTS waiting (and waiting) in the shadows, and ALB/Goodhue injured.
The real question is whether the best combo is one of those guys at 12 / JB at 15, or JB at 12 / BB at 15
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@kiwiinmelb said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew I’m all for seeing more of Jordie at 12 , but yeah it’s easy to forget now how well he played last season as a test fullback. Was probably one of the few success stories .
Wasn’t that outrageous imo to play him there again .
I don't think anyone here would be quibbling about JB playing 15 if we had a steady 12 that was kicking ass or even just clearly growing into the role. Instead we have Havili and QT, neither of whom have stamped their mark, RTS waiting (and waiting) in the shadows, and ALB/Goodhue injured.
The real question is whether the best combo is one of those guys at 12 / JB at 15, or JB at 12 / BB at 15
@kiwiinmelb said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew I’m all for seeing more of Jordie at 12 , but yeah it’s easy to forget now how well he played last season as a test fullback. Was probably one of the few success stories .
Wasn’t that outrageous imo to play him there again .
I don't think anyone here would be quibbling about JB playing 15 if we had a steady 12 that was kicking ass or even just clearly growing into the role. Instead we have Havili and QT, neither of whom have stamped their mark, RTS waiting (and waiting) in the shadows, and ALB/Goodhue injured.
The real question is whether the best combo is one of those guys at 12 / JB at 15, or JB at 12 / BB at 15
Exactly. 15 isnt really a problem area. BB will always do the job there. But 12 was an area of serious concern. Hopefully not anymore
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it would be odd (very stubborn) if he doesnt give JB more time on tour at 12 to at least see if he can build on his last outing.
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it would be odd (very stubborn) if he doesnt give JB more time on tour at 12 to at least see if he can build on his last outing.
@taniwharugby said in Foster:
it would be odd (very stubborn) if he doesnt give JB more time on tour at 12 to at least see if he can build on his last outing.
I wouldn't be surprised if we don't see him wearing 12 but moving into that position during games. ALB is back and they also need to see him as well as see how DH goes against NH sides now.
I think that to categorically lock JB in to that spot that need to explore the options and compare. I think that a few players may get half games.
