Foster, Robertson etc
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Yes I very much get the sense Foster has created a 'happy' environment in that he is well liked and treats people well.
The problem is he hasn't created a high performance environment.
@KiwiMurph That makes sense. I wonder whether that is the source of the problem. Foster plays the benevolent father figure telling players not to be robots and play what’s in front of them, while his assistants are sending out completely different messages. The players are told to work on problems and then the goalposts move depending on whom they are talking to.
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@taniwharugby said in Foster must go:
@Crucial said in Foster must go:
Kirwan summed it up best on the Breakdown. He admitted his own experience of being a crap coach and how it doesn't matter what your plans and ideas are you will fall short in you can't get those messages across clearly and it becomes a downward spiral held together by close results that mask the primary issue.
isnt that part of the role though?
It's more subtle than that. I'm sure you've come across people that can get a message across but then hear someone that takes that to another level. Someone that inspires belief simply in their manner.
I took what Kirwan was saying was that he thought he was doing it right but it wasn't the really top level that is needed in very high performance teams. At that level it made him crap.@Crucial we all have, but these are professional athletes that have been in the system for years, and should be able to deal with the messages they are getting (from various sources) sure some may need extra attention, but again, that comes back to him as the leader to know which buttons to push, and how to get the best out of each player, whether that requires a senior player to mentor them or another coach to be thier go to, or whatever, it is like any workplace where there will inevitably be some personality issues that require a different approach.
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@Machpants said in Foster must go:
@KiwiMurph said in Foster must go:
Yes I very much get the sense Foster has created a 'happy' environment in that he is well liked and treats people well.
The problem is he hasn't created a high performance environment.
Yeah I'm sure they're happy, they have to be George Bridge bad before they're dropped!
Getting dropped from the AB's has been difficult since the later part of the Hansen tenure
This squad actually had a few players with 15+ Tests cut: Weber, TJ, Bridge, Frizell
Worth noting that the experienced guys that didn't make the side weren't in the tight five. Tinkering with the backs and loosies but missing the root cause of the ABs issues
@Duluth said in Foster must go:
Worth noting that the experienced guys that didn't make the side weren't in the tight five. Tinkering with the backs and loosies but missing the root cause of the ABs issues
Likely also a reflection that they don't have full confidence in the younger tight five players, particularly the front rowers. Aumua is great in open play but questions remain over his scrummaging and lineout throwing. They've taken a punt with Vaa'i and Lord but not really dropped anyone to accomodate them, and neither has played as much as they could (injury and covid have played a part here). Ross has been selected now, and before him Hodgman and de Groot, so there is uncertainty over who the next best LH is. Moody is also in the background. Most importantly, there was a missed opportunity to select a younger TH in this squad while still retaining some experience.
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@Crucial we all have, but these are professional athletes that have been in the system for years, and should be able to deal with the messages they are getting (from various sources) sure some may need extra attention, but again, that comes back to him as the leader to know which buttons to push, and how to get the best out of each player, whether that requires a senior player to mentor them or another coach to be thier go to, or whatever, it is like any workplace where there will inevitably be some personality issues that require a different approach.
@taniwharugby said in Foster must go:
@Crucial we all have, but these are professional athletes that have been in the system for years, and should be able to deal with the messages they are getting (from various sources) sure some may need extra attention, but again, that comes back to him as the leader to know which buttons to push, and how to get the best out of each player, whether that requires a senior player to mentor them or another coach to be thier go to, or whatever, it is like any workplace where there will inevitably be some personality issues that require a different approach.
Who's to say that isn't the level this lot are at. Ireland themselves lay a heap of praise at the feet of Farrell as he has that x factor that provides confidence and belief.
To be the best we need one of those coaches. -
@Machpants said in Foster must go:
@KiwiMurph said in Foster must go:
Yes I very much get the sense Foster has created a 'happy' environment in that he is well liked and treats people well.
The problem is he hasn't created a high performance environment.
Yeah I'm sure they're happy, they have to be George Bridge bad before they're dropped!
Getting dropped from the AB's has been difficult since the later part of the Hansen tenure
This squad actually had a few players with 15+ Tests cut: Weber, TJ, Bridge, Frizell
Worth noting that the experienced guys that didn't make the side weren't in the tight five. Tinkering with the backs and loosies but missing the root cause of the ABs issues
@Duluth said in Foster must go:
Worth noting that the experienced guys that didn't make the side weren't in the tight five. Tinkering with the backs and loosies but missing the root cause of the ABs issues
Yes it's interesting to hear there was a lot of chat at the end of last year/start of this year that the ABs front row had to improve.
Then they turn around and select the exact same props and starting hooker except Ross for the injured Moody. The best performing prop is only starting because Moody is injured.
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@taniwharugby said in Foster must go:
@Crucial we all have, but these are professional athletes that have been in the system for years, and should be able to deal with the messages they are getting (from various sources) sure some may need extra attention, but again, that comes back to him as the leader to know which buttons to push, and how to get the best out of each player, whether that requires a senior player to mentor them or another coach to be thier go to, or whatever, it is like any workplace where there will inevitably be some personality issues that require a different approach.
Who's to say that isn't the level this lot are at. Ireland themselves lay a heap of praise at the feet of Farrell as he has that x factor that provides confidence and belief.
To be the best we need one of those coaches.@Crucial it's more the way JK is sticking his oar in, TBH I think he is approaching this taking the mental health of Fozzie into account more than the results.
As I said in one of the multiple Fozzie threads, I do feel for him, this cant be easy, and no doubt his family probably copping it form a small number of absolute fucktards, but by the same token, this is a pretty high powered job in NZ< it used to be said they were more important than the PM didnt it...so with that comes the responsibility and scrutiny, which will sadly be stressful, and draw the trolls too.
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Yes I very much get the sense Foster has created a 'happy' environment in that he is well liked and treats people well.
The problem is he hasn't created a high performance environment.
@KiwiMurph said in Foster must go:
Yes I very much get the sense Foster has created a 'happy' environment in that he is well liked and treats people well.
The problem is he hasn't created a high performance environment.
Yes, he can go run a holiday camp instead because he might be good at that.
He secured a highly lucative, high demand job at which he has been absolutely hopeless. No sympathy at all.
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@Crucial it's more the way JK is sticking his oar in, TBH I think he is approaching this taking the mental health of Fozzie into account more than the results.
As I said in one of the multiple Fozzie threads, I do feel for him, this cant be easy, and no doubt his family probably copping it form a small number of absolute fucktards, but by the same token, this is a pretty high powered job in NZ< it used to be said they were more important than the PM didnt it...so with that comes the responsibility and scrutiny, which will sadly be stressful, and draw the trolls too.
@taniwharugby said in Foster must go:
@Crucial it's more the way JK is sticking his oar in, TBH I think he is approaching this taking the mental health of Fozzie into account more than the results.
As I said in one of the multiple Fozzie threads, I do feel for him, this cant be easy, and no doubt his family probably copping it form a small number of absolute fucktards, but by the same token, this is a pretty high powered job in NZ< it used to be said they were more important than the PM didnt it...so with that comes the responsibility and scrutiny, which will sadly be stressful, and draw the trolls too.
I am only talking about his comments regarding connection between coach and players. His talk about NZR throwing Foster under the bus and him being a good guy was in a different conversation. Here's what he said about coaching...
“I’ve never coached at that level but I was a bad coach,” Kirwan conceded.
“We couldn’t win a football game and it’s because I wasn’t good enough. I got reviewed and I had to change stuff and I still wasn’t good enough.
“The players were disconnected and there’s a disconnection in that team. I don’t know it for certain but I feel a disconnection and Ian Foster has to sort that out somehow.” -
@taniwharugby said in Foster must go:
@Crucial it's more the way JK is sticking his oar in, TBH I think he is approaching this taking the mental health of Fozzie into account more than the results.
As I said in one of the multiple Fozzie threads, I do feel for him, this cant be easy, and no doubt his family probably copping it form a small number of absolute fucktards, but by the same token, this is a pretty high powered job in NZ< it used to be said they were more important than the PM didnt it...so with that comes the responsibility and scrutiny, which will sadly be stressful, and draw the trolls too.
I am only talking about his comments regarding connection between coach and players. His talk about NZR throwing Foster under the bus and him being a good guy was in a different conversation. Here's what he said about coaching...
“I’ve never coached at that level but I was a bad coach,” Kirwan conceded.
“We couldn’t win a football game and it’s because I wasn’t good enough. I got reviewed and I had to change stuff and I still wasn’t good enough.
“The players were disconnected and there’s a disconnection in that team. I don’t know it for certain but I feel a disconnection and Ian Foster has to sort that out somehow.”@Crucial said in Foster must go:
I don’t know it for certain but I feel a disconnection and Ian Foster has to sort that out somehow.”
how long would JK give for Foster to sort that out, extend his contract post RWC too? I mean he's only been in charge for coming up 3 years (was involved prior too) and the issues present now, were there previously (prior to him taking complete control) and havent shown signs of improvement.
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@Billy-Tell said in Foster must go:
@Daffy-Jaffy said in Foster must go:
But I don't understand. Rennie is a brilliant coach...
It’s also about your opponents. 16 of Rennie’s 23 games have been France, England, New Zealand and South Africa. Not much padding going on there,
@Catogrande said in Foster must go:
@Billy-Tell said in Foster must go:
@Daffy-Jaffy said in Foster must go:
But I don't understand. Rennie is a brilliant coach...
It’s also about your opponents. 16 of Rennie’s 23 games have been France, England, lucky kiwi bastards hiding their decline momentarily
New Zealandand South Africa. Not much padding going on therefixed it there for you
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@Crucial said in Foster must go:
I don’t know it for certain but I feel a disconnection and Ian Foster has to sort that out somehow.”
how long would JK give for Foster to sort that out, extend his contract post RWC too? I mean he's only been in charge for coming up 3 years (was involved prior too) and the issues present now, were there previously (prior to him taking complete control) and havent shown signs of improvement.
@taniwharugby said in Foster must go:
@Crucial said in Foster must go:
I don’t know it for certain but I feel a disconnection and Ian Foster has to sort that out somehow.”
how long would JK give for Foster to sort that out, extend his contract post RWC too? I mean he's only been in charge for coming up 3 years (was involved prior too) and the issues present now, were there previously (prior to him taking complete control) and havent shown signs of improvement.
Have you seen the show? You are commenting way out of context and placing emphasis on the wrong points. It was a brief comment, more about how how he thinks there is a disconnection similar to what he has experienced himself. The last few words simply mean 'If he was to stay, that needs fixing'.
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@taniwharugby said in Foster must go:
@Crucial said in Foster must go:
I don’t know it for certain but I feel a disconnection and Ian Foster has to sort that out somehow.”
how long would JK give for Foster to sort that out, extend his contract post RWC too? I mean he's only been in charge for coming up 3 years (was involved prior too) and the issues present now, were there previously (prior to him taking complete control) and havent shown signs of improvement.
Have you seen the show? You are commenting way out of context and placing emphasis on the wrong points. It was a brief comment, more about how how he thinks there is a disconnection similar to what he has experienced himself. The last few words simply mean 'If he was to stay, that needs fixing'.
@Crucial said in Foster must go:
@taniwharugby said in Foster must go:
@Crucial said in Foster must go:
I don’t know it for certain but I feel a disconnection and Ian Foster has to sort that out somehow.”
how long would JK give for Foster to sort that out, extend his contract post RWC too? I mean he's only been in charge for coming up 3 years (was involved prior too) and the issues present now, were there previously (prior to him taking complete control) and havent shown signs of improvement.
Have you seen the show? You are commenting way out of context and placing emphasis on the wrong points. It was a brief comment, more about how how he thinks there is a disconnection similar to what he has experienced himself. The last few words simply mean 'If he was to stay, that needs fixing'.
Pretty frank admission by JK. Great comment
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@taniwharugby said in Foster must go:
@Crucial said in Foster must go:
I don’t know it for certain but I feel a disconnection and Ian Foster has to sort that out somehow.”
how long would JK give for Foster to sort that out, extend his contract post RWC too? I mean he's only been in charge for coming up 3 years (was involved prior too) and the issues present now, were there previously (prior to him taking complete control) and havent shown signs of improvement.
Have you seen the show? You are commenting way out of context and placing emphasis on the wrong points. It was a brief comment, more about how how he thinks there is a disconnection similar to what he has experienced himself. The last few words simply mean 'If he was to stay, that needs fixing'.
@Crucial nope, but how is that relevant in here...seen soundbites and quotes, that's enough for outrage and making judgements.
Points remain relevant, how long do you give him?
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there is the old saying that goes something like "what makes great coaches? Great players"
Maybe, if we step back and take the black glasses off, this isn't all Ian's fault. Maybe, just maybe, NZ players aren't very good any more.
Our front row players range from adequate to definitely substandard (with one possible, but as yet unproven) exception
Our 2nd rowers are putting in a shift, but do they actually contribute anything meaningful?
In the loose forwards, on the weekend perhaps our 6 & 8 had points wins over their opposite (7 clearly did not) but that is only if you ignore the fact we lost the ruck battle, and the tackle battle.
Our halfback can't kick with accuracy or depth.
there is no 10 in the country who can calmly run a game, or kick well from hand.
We don't appear to have a 12 anywhere, though playing 12 outside our erratic and unpredictable 10s must be a fucking nightmare
Our 13 is a converted winger with limitless potential but still several key questionmarks
Win seems okay
Our fullback is good under the high ball, but not much good at anything else, and loves a poor optionAnd a big issue is, who do you swap these guys out for? No one else is bashing the door down.
I'm just throwing it out there, maybe, just maybe, we lose to Ireland because they have better players than us now. And we, the NZ rugby fan, refuse to believe it because it has never been so.
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there is the old saying that goes something like "what makes great coaches? Great players"
Maybe, if we step back and take the black glasses off, this isn't all Ian's fault. Maybe, just maybe, NZ players aren't very good any more.
Our front row players range from adequate to definitely substandard (with one possible, but as yet unproven) exception
Our 2nd rowers are putting in a shift, but do they actually contribute anything meaningful?
In the loose forwards, on the weekend perhaps our 6 & 8 had points wins over their opposite (7 clearly did not) but that is only if you ignore the fact we lost the ruck battle, and the tackle battle.
Our halfback can't kick with accuracy or depth.
there is no 10 in the country who can calmly run a game, or kick well from hand.
We don't appear to have a 12 anywhere, though playing 12 outside our erratic and unpredictable 10s must be a fucking nightmare
Our 13 is a converted winger with limitless potential but still several key questionmarks
Win seems okay
Our fullback is good under the high ball, but not much good at anything else, and loves a poor optionAnd a big issue is, who do you swap these guys out for? No one else is bashing the door down.
I'm just throwing it out there, maybe, just maybe, we lose to Ireland because they have better players than us now. And we, the NZ rugby fan, refuse to believe it because it has never been so.
@mariner4life yep, without a doubt, problems are not just Fozzie, they go above and below him, but Robinson aint gonna sack himself, Fozzie isnt gonna be able to attract some quality new assistants to help him.
Some work needs to be done on the development, the loss of players over the past 10 or so years now finally starting to hurt?
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there is the old saying that goes something like "what makes great coaches? Great players"
Maybe, if we step back and take the black glasses off, this isn't all Ian's fault. Maybe, just maybe, NZ players aren't very good any more.
Our front row players range from adequate to definitely substandard (with one possible, but as yet unproven) exception
Our 2nd rowers are putting in a shift, but do they actually contribute anything meaningful?
In the loose forwards, on the weekend perhaps our 6 & 8 had points wins over their opposite (7 clearly did not) but that is only if you ignore the fact we lost the ruck battle, and the tackle battle.
Our halfback can't kick with accuracy or depth.
there is no 10 in the country who can calmly run a game, or kick well from hand.
We don't appear to have a 12 anywhere, though playing 12 outside our erratic and unpredictable 10s must be a fucking nightmare
Our 13 is a converted winger with limitless potential but still several key questionmarks
Win seems okay
Our fullback is good under the high ball, but not much good at anything else, and loves a poor optionAnd a big issue is, who do you swap these guys out for? No one else is bashing the door down.
I'm just throwing it out there, maybe, just maybe, we lose to Ireland because they have better players than us now. And we, the NZ rugby fan, refuse to believe it because it has never been so.
@mariner4life said in Foster must go:
We don't appear to have a 12 anywhere, though playing 12 outside our erratic and unpredictable 10s must be a fucking nightmare
Are there any genuinely large, fast, and powerful 12s in NZ? TUJ has potential but is almost always injured.
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@mariner4life said in Foster must go:
We don't appear to have a 12 anywhere, though playing 12 outside our erratic and unpredictable 10s must be a fucking nightmare
Are there any genuinely large, fast, and powerful 12s in NZ? TUJ has potential but is almost always injured.
@Tim said in Foster must go:
@mariner4life said in Foster must go:
We don't appear to have a 12 anywhere, though playing 12 outside our erratic and unpredictable 10s must be a fucking nightmare
Are there any genuinely large, fast, and powerful 12s in NZ? TUJ has potential but is almost always injured.
12 is a great microcosm of our current issue
In all reality you have 5 in teh country to choose from. Currently the Highlanders are so shit you would have to be amazing to be considered. So we are down to 4.
We picked 3 of them. Every single player selected is different. The coaches don't know what they want in a 12, so they just picked the best performing 3 (well 4, but one is also a centre).So a shallow talent pool playing a small number of systems (all very similar) and a selection committee not sold on what they want their 12 to be.
How does that create success?
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@Tim said in Foster must go:
@mariner4life said in Foster must go:
We don't appear to have a 12 anywhere, though playing 12 outside our erratic and unpredictable 10s must be a fucking nightmare
Are there any genuinely large, fast, and powerful 12s in NZ? TUJ has potential but is almost always injured.
12 is a great microcosm of our current issue
In all reality you have 5 in teh country to choose from. Currently the Highlanders are so shit you would have to be amazing to be considered. So we are down to 4.
We picked 3 of them. Every single player selected is different. The coaches don't know what they want in a 12, so they just picked the best performing 3 (well 4, but one is also a centre).So a shallow talent pool playing a small number of systems (all very similar) and a selection committee not sold on what they want their 12 to be.
How does that create success?
