AB Great, Bruce Robertson - RIP
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@Chris-B said in [AB Great, Bruce Robertson - RIP]
A while ago I re-read one of Terry McLean's books where he put up some kicking stats for Don. He's miles short of good modern kickers.
Were the balls as consistent in Don's day?
@nostrildamus Whether or not - McLean says that in his best years The Don was a 50% kicker.
On his last tour, when his kicking faded, McLean counted 32 conversions and 41 misses, 18 penalties and 56 misses, 6 drop goals and 16 misses. 50/147 from place kicks.
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@nostrildamus Whether or not - McLean says that in his best years The Don was a 50% kicker.
On his last tour, when his kicking faded, McLean counted 32 conversions and 41 misses, 18 penalties and 56 misses, 6 drop goals and 16 misses. 50/147 from place kicks.
@Chris-B said in AB Great, Bruce Robertson - RIP:
@nostrildamus Whether or not - McLean says that in his best years The Don was a 50% kicker.
On his last tour, when his kicking faded, McLean counted 32 conversions and 41 misses, 18 penalties and 56 misses, 6 drop goals and 16 misses. 50/147 from place kicks.
heavy (slippery when wet) leather and he kicked with his toe (I think they also held the ball for the player?) and he often kicked for mad distances (for the time) so that might need to be considered.
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@Chris-B said in AB Great, Bruce Robertson - RIP:
@nostrildamus Whether or not - McLean says that in his best years The Don was a 50% kicker.
On his last tour, when his kicking faded, McLean counted 32 conversions and 41 misses, 18 penalties and 56 misses, 6 drop goals and 16 misses. 50/147 from place kicks.
heavy (slippery when wet) leather and he kicked with his toe (I think they also held the ball for the player?) and he often kicked for mad distances (for the time) so that might need to be considered.
@nostrildamus He was miles better than pretty much anyone else at the time, but that returns to my original point - especially in The Don's day, goal-kicking was very much an afterthought. (We didn't finally learn the lesson until the mid-1970s).
Around Don's time, I think the Brits were still arguing that having a coach was unsporting!
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@nostrildamus He was miles better than pretty much anyone else at the time, but that returns to my original point - especially in The Don's day, goal-kicking was very much an afterthought. (We didn't finally learn the lesson until the mid-1970s).
Around Don's time, I think the Brits were still arguing that having a coach was unsporting!
@Chris-B said in AB Great, Bruce Robertson - RIP:
Around Don's time, I think the Brits were still arguing that having a coach was unsporting!
Didn't know that, thanks!
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@nostrildamus He was miles better than pretty much anyone else at the time, but that returns to my original point - especially in The Don's day, goal-kicking was very much an afterthought. (We didn't finally learn the lesson until the mid-1970s).
Around Don's time, I think the Brits were still arguing that having a coach was unsporting!
@Chris-B said in AB Great, Bruce Robertson - RIP:
@nostrildamus He was miles better than pretty much anyone else at the time, but that returns to my original point - especially in The Don's day, goal-kicking was very much an afterthought. (We didn't finally learn the lesson until the mid-1970s).
From what I've read, Clarke was much more than just a kicker. His ball handling and catching was regarded as exceptional (he was a First Class cricketer), particularly in the wet and with the mud.
Around Don's time, I think the Brits were still arguing that having a coach was unsporting!
They were complaining about decoy runners in Bruce Robertson's time...
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@Chris-B said in AB Great, Bruce Robertson - RIP:
@nostrildamus He was miles better than pretty much anyone else at the time, but that returns to my original point - especially in The Don's day, goal-kicking was very much an afterthought. (We didn't finally learn the lesson until the mid-1970s).
From what I've read, Clarke was much more than just a kicker. His ball handling and catching was regarded as exceptional (he was a First Class cricketer), particularly in the wet and with the mud.
Around Don's time, I think the Brits were still arguing that having a coach was unsporting!
They were complaining about decoy runners in Bruce Robertson's time...
@Victor-Meldrew A massive man for that day and age, as well - especially for a back. McLean says he'd "trimmed down" to a fighting weight of 105kgs. Other "Big" backs in those days probably struggled to reach 80kgs.
n.b. I see Bruce listed at 86kgs, but he was a big back 15 years after Don retired..
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@Catogrande said in AB Great, Bruce Robertson - RIP:
@Chris-B said in AB Great, Bruce Robertson - RIP:
@Dan54 That 1976 tour reminds me of how the likes of JJ Stewart hadn't yet appreciated the importance of goal kicking - the Jaapies were well ahead of us in picking Gerald Bosch.
Cough. Cough. Don Clarke. Cough.
We'd forgotten.
Our test goal-kickers on that tour were Williams and Going, who were pretty much 30 percent men by today's standards.
Laurie Mains was the only decent kicker on the tour, but was perceived to be too slow in general play and Kit Fawcett - better kicker than the other two, but too flaky.
A while ago I re-read one of Terry McLean's books where he put up some kicking stats for Don. He's miles short of good modern kickers.
@Chris-B said in AB Great, Bruce Robertson - RIP:
@Catogrande said in AB Great, Bruce Robertson - RIP:
@Chris-B said in AB Great, Bruce Robertson - RIP:
@Dan54 That 1976 tour reminds me of how the likes of JJ Stewart hadn't yet appreciated the importance of goal kicking - the Jaapies were well ahead of us in picking Gerald Bosch.
Cough. Cough. Don Clarke. Cough.
We'd forgotten.
Our test goal-kickers on that tour were Williams and Going, who were pretty much 30 percent men by today's standards.
Laurie Mains was the only decent kicker on the tour, but was perceived to be too slow in general play and Kit Fawcett - better kicker than the other two, but too flaky.
A while ago I re-read one of Terry McLean's books where he put up some kicking stats for Don. He's miles short of good modern kickers.
So many things mitigating against kickers in days gone by:
The grounds were not as well looked after/muddier underfoot
No tees
The balls were heavier and less aerodynamic
The thick laces on the balls...
The leather absorbed any water and the balls became even heavier
The boots were awful in comparison
No kicking coaches
No scientific analysisThere's a reason that penalties and DGs were worth the same as tries back in the day - they were bloody difficult to achieve.
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@Chris-B said in AB Great, Bruce Robertson - RIP:
@Catogrande said in AB Great, Bruce Robertson - RIP:
@Chris-B said in AB Great, Bruce Robertson - RIP:
@Dan54 That 1976 tour reminds me of how the likes of JJ Stewart hadn't yet appreciated the importance of goal kicking - the Jaapies were well ahead of us in picking Gerald Bosch.
Cough. Cough. Don Clarke. Cough.
We'd forgotten.
Our test goal-kickers on that tour were Williams and Going, who were pretty much 30 percent men by today's standards.
Laurie Mains was the only decent kicker on the tour, but was perceived to be too slow in general play and Kit Fawcett - better kicker than the other two, but too flaky.
A while ago I re-read one of Terry McLean's books where he put up some kicking stats for Don. He's miles short of good modern kickers.
So many things mitigating against kickers in days gone by:
The grounds were not as well looked after/muddier underfoot
No tees
The balls were heavier and less aerodynamic
The thick laces on the balls...
The leather absorbed any water and the balls became even heavier
The boots were awful in comparison
No kicking coaches
No scientific analysisThere's a reason that penalties and DGs were worth the same as tries back in the day - they were bloody difficult to achieve.
Pierre Villepreux. Wet leather ball. No Tee. Athletic Park. 65m. Over the posts with room to spare.
And people think Jordie Barrett has a big boot.
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@nostrildamus He was miles better than pretty much anyone else at the time, but that returns to my original point - especially in The Don's day, goal-kicking was very much an afterthought. (We didn't finally learn the lesson until the mid-1970s).
Around Don's time, I think the Brits were still arguing that having a coach was unsporting!
@Chris-B said in AB Great, Bruce Robertson - RIP:
@nostrildamus He was miles better than pretty much anyone else at the time, but that returns to my original point - especially in The Don's day, goal-kicking was very much an afterthought. (We didn't finally learn the lesson until the mid-1970s).
Around Don's time, I think the Brits were still arguing that having a coach was unsporting!
Lol yep the 1966 Lions captain was also coach Michael Campbell-Lamberton. Mind you, I think back then touchies were reserves from each teamand no replacements allowed. A bit has changed.
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@Chris-B said in AB Great, Bruce Robertson - RIP:
@nostrildamus He was miles better than pretty much anyone else at the time, but that returns to my original point - especially in The Don's day, goal-kicking was very much an afterthought. (We didn't finally learn the lesson until the mid-1970s).
Around Don's time, I think the Brits were still arguing that having a coach was unsporting!
Lol yep the 1966 Lions captain was also coach Michael Campbell-Lamberton. Mind you, I think back then touchies were reserves from each teamand no replacements allowed. A bit has changed.
John Robins (Wales) was the official coach on the 66 tour, which was the first time that position was officially nominated. Previously we had “assistant managers”.
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@nostrildamus He was miles better than pretty much anyone else at the time, but that returns to my original point - especially in The Don's day, goal-kicking was very much an afterthought. (We didn't finally learn the lesson until the mid-1970s).
Around Don's time, I think the Brits were still arguing that having a coach was unsporting!
@Chris-B said in AB Great, Bruce Robertson - RIP:
@nostrildamus He was miles better than pretty much anyone else at the time, but that returns to my original point - especially in The Don's day, goal-kicking was very much an afterthought. (We didn't finally learn the lesson until the mid-1970s).
Around Don's time, I think the Brits were still arguing that having a coach was unsporting!
They caught up soon enough
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@nostrildamus He was miles better than pretty much anyone else at the time, but that returns to my original point - especially in The Don's day, goal-kicking was very much an afterthought. (We didn't finally learn the lesson until the mid-1970s).
Around Don's time, I think the Brits were still arguing that having a coach was unsporting!
@Chris-B A lot of it has to do with the style. Toe poking is pretty erratic and it wasn't until the 80s that Hewie and Deans etc started adopting it. I remember in my youth that most boots had a square toe. I assume designed with this in mind. And this was the technique taught. Probably some aversion from the meat heads to adopting the around the corner "soccer" style.
So much has changed including the use of a tee and angle of the ball at address.
Watching that 1976 Springbok tour was so frustrating with the goals kicking poor and there was concern we would lose the 81 tour for the same reason with Botha. But then there was Hewie.
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@Victor-Meldrew A massive man for that day and age, as well - especially for a back. McLean says he'd "trimmed down" to a fighting weight of 105kgs. Other "Big" backs in those days probably struggled to reach 80kgs.
n.b. I see Bruce listed at 86kgs, but he was a big back 15 years after Don retired..
@Chris-B fairly sure Clarke was the heaviest AB in the team including all the forwards !
Protein, Creatine and other “supplements” have definitely changed things a bit in recent times. Robertson being 86kg at 186cm seems bloody slim though even for then !
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@Chris-B fairly sure Clarke was the heaviest AB in the team including all the forwards !
Protein, Creatine and other “supplements” have definitely changed things a bit in recent times. Robertson being 86kg at 186cm seems bloody slim though even for then !
@MN5 That's my memory as well - that Don was usually the biggest.
On the kicking thing, while it's true that the balls, boots, etc were more difficult - the key thing was, I'm pretty sure, the relative amount of practice and technical proficiency of the kickers.
Here's what McLean has to say in 1964:
"...goalkicking these days is reducible to a simple study of aim, body balance and leverage and to practice comparable with that which a low handicap golfer gives to his hitting with woods and irons. For the British to point the finger at Clarke and to ask, after one of his great days, "Yes, but was this really rugby?" was to point the finger at the laziness and/or ineptitude of their own players. One hears again their cry, "Of course we don't play our Rugby that way". But, why not? The goalkick in Rugby is the long putt in golf or the push through midwicket in cricket - something infinitely exasperating to the other side but wonderfully profitable when it is done by your team."
I'll see if I can fish out what he had to say about our goal-kicking in 1976 - I recall JJ Stewart had a bit of a whinge at the end of the tour about kicking vs running rugby, something about let's all give up and go to the beach - and I think TP didn't have much sympathy.
On the coaching thing - it was very much related to the amateur vs professional thing - and league vs union. Coaching was a step towards professionalism, which was an anathema to the traditionalists. There used to be rules that home test teams couldn't assemble until two days before the test....to discourage them from practicing! Provincial teams that played warm-ups before playing a touring side were frowned upon, etc, etc...
McLean's books are fascinating to read some of this history.
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@Dan54 That 1976 tour reminds me of how the likes of JJ Stewart hadn't yet appreciated the importance of goal kicking - the Jaapies were well ahead of us in picking Gerald Bosch.
@Chris-B not to mention a home town ref by the name of Gert Bezuidenhout who officiated the series
When asked by Ian Kirkpatrick about his many odd decisions , he calmly answered the All Black looseforward/lock
You guys dont live in SA , i have to live with these people ..
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@Chris-B not to mention a home town ref by the name of Gert Bezuidenhout who officiated the series
When asked by Ian Kirkpatrick about his many odd decisions , he calmly answered the All Black looseforward/lock
You guys dont live in SA , i have to live with these people ..️@Steven-Harris I remember him, well!!!
Had a discussion about him, with a few of the Jaap posters a few years back, when we had more of them. Pretty sure it's him not awarding Bruce's penalty try!I think we chose him to referee most, if not all the tests, because he was the least bad option.
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@Chris-B Think the other two people entrusted with the whistle (to use the word referee would by a complete misdescription!) were Ian Gourlay and Piet Robertse
@Higgins said in AB Great, Bruce Robertson - RIP:
Piet Robertse
Or "Oom Piet" as Bok Captain Morne du Plessis referred to him.
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@MN5 That's my memory as well - that Don was usually the biggest.
On the kicking thing, while it's true that the balls, boots, etc were more difficult - the key thing was, I'm pretty sure, the relative amount of practice and technical proficiency of the kickers.
Here's what McLean has to say in 1964:
"...goalkicking these days is reducible to a simple study of aim, body balance and leverage and to practice comparable with that which a low handicap golfer gives to his hitting with woods and irons. For the British to point the finger at Clarke and to ask, after one of his great days, "Yes, but was this really rugby?" was to point the finger at the laziness and/or ineptitude of their own players. One hears again their cry, "Of course we don't play our Rugby that way". But, why not? The goalkick in Rugby is the long putt in golf or the push through midwicket in cricket - something infinitely exasperating to the other side but wonderfully profitable when it is done by your team."
I'll see if I can fish out what he had to say about our goal-kicking in 1976 - I recall JJ Stewart had a bit of a whinge at the end of the tour about kicking vs running rugby, something about let's all give up and go to the beach - and I think TP didn't have much sympathy.
On the coaching thing - it was very much related to the amateur vs professional thing - and league vs union. Coaching was a step towards professionalism, which was an anathema to the traditionalists. There used to be rules that home test teams couldn't assemble until two days before the test....to discourage them from practicing! Provincial teams that played warm-ups before playing a touring side were frowned upon, etc, etc...
McLean's books are fascinating to read some of this history.
@Chris-B
I remember reading in one of my Dad's old books that Clarke had a success rate of around 75% on conversions. If my memory is correct, that's bloody good and up with the best when you take into account tees, balls etc.
