Super Rugby 2024
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@Canes4life i'd missed that rumor going around, who was said to have nabbed him?
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@Kiwiwomble @george33 has good word that he’s off to another franchise (speculation is the Chiefs), but then @BerhamporeNinja is certain that he’s staying at the Canes so watch this space.
@Canes4life said in Super Rugby 2024:
@Kiwiwomble @george33 has good word that he’s off to another franchise (speculation is the Chiefs), but then @BerhamporeNinja is certain that he’s staying at the Canes so watch this space.
I thought there was also speculation for the Crusaders as well? It's hard to keep up with the Fern rumour mill these days.
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@Canes4life said in Super Rugby 2024:
@Kiwiwomble @george33 has good word that he’s off to another franchise (speculation is the Chiefs), but then @BerhamporeNinja is certain that he’s staying at the Canes so watch this space.
I thought there was also speculation for the Crusaders as well? It's hard to keep up with the Fern rumour mill these days.
@Nepia said in Super Rugby 2024:
@Canes4life said in Super Rugby 2024:
@Kiwiwomble @george33 has good word that he’s off to another franchise (speculation is the Chiefs), but then @BerhamporeNinja is certain that he’s staying at the Canes so watch this space.
I thought there was also speculation for the Crusaders as well? It's hard to keep up with the Fern rumour mill these days.
There was from I think a crusaders poster. But not based on anything other than the Crusaders could attract a player like Roigard.. and they need a proven top HB
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@Chris said in Crusaders 2024:
@gt12 said in Final: Chiefs v Crusaders:
I agree you will be a very good team. My question is whether Burke deserves to be discussed alongside Mehrtens, Carter, and Mo’unga. If he or Kemara rises to a somewhat similar level, you have championships coming or will challenge. If not, welcome to being like every other franchise waiting for a gold strike.
I don't think either will rise to Mounga status,But solid wins titles if you have quality around you.
2024 will be very interesting,It could be down to who adapts to the new coaching regimes the quickest.
Logically the Chiefs should have the inside running with no Coaching disruptions and The Crusaders as Penny will not change things at the Crusaders, he understands what works at the Crusaders.I am not convinced on Laidlaw as HC as yet.The Blues have not even announced a HC yet or what assistants are staying or coming in,The Canes also with their assistants.
It could be a really interesting watch next season.I lot to keep an eye on along with the next AB set up as well.
I think the top and bottom of it, is the Chiefs should remain there or thereabouts, the Crusaders will probably take a slight stepback without Razor and Mo'unga (Not to mention Whitelock) which will mean by the law of averages they won't win it.
@Chris I think you underestimate just how good a coach Razor is. Look at Canterbury. Did 3 in 4, then they've only won one since. The guys is just amazing at squeezing the very best out of average players. Rob Penney might not be a bad coach, but he also isn't as good either. I'd go as far to say, the Crusaders wouldn't have won Super Rugby this year with any other guy in charge.
The Canes should continue to be of a similar standing, though losing Roigard (Seems 50/50 atm) would be a major dent. Still a big gap at lock as well, and no Ardie and Laidlaw finding his feet as a 15s coach means I expect them to be good, but probably not a title challenger.
The Blues except for their old props and Barrett aren't hit too badly. A little bit will depend on how Vern Cotter settles, and whether O'
Halloran or whichever attack coach they get can actually use tactics rather than vibes of give it to Telea/Rieko. They'll win the easy ones because of their backs, but the tight five remains extremely lightweight.The Highlanders are undergoing change, and in likelihood, it is the year before the year, but there are massive parallels to 2014. Depth in the forwards is a slight concern, but the starting pack is still very good, and good enough to challenge any side in a one-off game. With Millar stepping up to the plate at 10, PUJ finally filling the 13 void, and JRK joining the back three, really do think the Landers could push for 2nd in the conference behind the Chiefs. Whilst we have several new players, I also think we are far more stable, because A Smith is the only key cog we have lost (Frizell was crap so hardly a key cog).
@frugby said in Super Rugby 2024:
think you underestimate just how good a coach Razor is. Look at Canterbury. Did 3 in 4, then they've only won one since. The guys is just amazing at squeezing the very best out of average players. Rob Penney might not be a bad coach, but he also isn't as good either. I'd go as far to say, the Crusaders wouldn't have won Super Rugby this year with any other guy in charge.
I am well aware of what Razor has done on and off the field for the club and it has been absolutely amazing.
But I am also very aware of what Tamiti Ellison and Dan Perrin have and are doing and people like Angus Gardiner and Andrew Webb who have been a Hugh part of the Crusaders success over the last 7 years.
I have confidence in the people who are left behind at the Crusaders to do their very best to keep what Razor built with the help of those people.
I don't think we will win another 7 in the next seven years but we will win some and be around about the other years. -
@Nepia said in Super Rugby 2024:
@Canes4life said in Super Rugby 2024:
@Kiwiwomble @george33 has good word that he’s off to another franchise (speculation is the Chiefs), but then @BerhamporeNinja is certain that he’s staying at the Canes so watch this space.
I thought there was also speculation for the Crusaders as well? It's hard to keep up with the Fern rumour mill these days.
There was from I think a crusaders poster. But not based on anything other than the Crusaders could attract a player like Roigard.. and they need a proven top HB
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@Chris are the Canes changing out all their assistants? I thought they just had to find a replacement for Chris Gibbes?
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@Canes4life said in Super Rugby 2024:
@Kiwiwomble @george33 has good word that he’s off to another franchise (speculation is the Chiefs), but then @BerhamporeNinja is certain that he’s staying at the Canes so watch this space.
I thought there was also speculation for the Crusaders as well? It's hard to keep up with the Fern rumour mill these days.
@Nepia said in Super Rugby 2024:
@Canes4life said in Super Rugby 2024:
@Kiwiwomble @george33 has good word that he’s off to another franchise (speculation is the Chiefs), but then @BerhamporeNinja is certain that he’s staying at the Canes so watch this space.
I thought there was also speculation for the Crusaders as well? It's hard to keep up with the Fern rumour mill these days.
The Pak 'n Save is running out of crystal balls and tea leaves as we speak.
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Gibbs we know,Always a possibility a new Coach would like more of his choices in there,I haven't heard anymore are leaving.
@Chris I feel like there is still a bit of a boys club instilled at the Canes. Guys like Cory Jane shouldn't have been given a role the year after finishing up as a player, but he was. This had a snowball effect because it meant that guys like JSavea was never going to fall out of favour because he had a good mate in the coaching box and no matter how inconsistent his performances were, he was never going to be dropped.
The Canes really need a complete clean out of their back room to complement the incoming Laidlaw.
Recent years have shown that the best players haven't always been selected for the Canes. Instead, Holland has selected his favourites even when they continued to underperform in the big games.
Hopefully Laidlaw brings a shift in mindset because the Canes need the best players on the park to compete.
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@kiwi_expat said in Crusaders 2024:
Haha, not after shafting world-class Cotter for relative journeyman Rob Penney they won't.
The reporting on the coaching changes has been unreliable. However there was a report a couple of weeks ago the that Cotter removed himself from consideration for the Crusaders job
It seems to make sense. First, it's hard to argue for Penney over Cotter. Plus Cotter had a more lucrative offer from the Blues, and even more lucrative offers from French clubs
@Duluth said in Super Rugby 2024:
The reporting on the coaching changes has been unreliable. However there was a report a couple of weeks ago the that Cotter removed himself from consideration for the Crusaders job
It seems to make sense. First, it's hard to argue for Penney over Cotter. Plus Cotter had a more lucrative offer from the Blues, and even more lucrative offers from French clubs
It a fair point isn't it, South Island franchises Highlanders and Crusaders simply can't compete with those cashed up Blues and their third-party deals, there's a reason Leon only coached Ta$man - then abruptly left his Crusaders assistant post after just 1 season for the Blue$ top job citing 'family reasons' lol... Super Rugby isn't exactly a level playing field these days is it?
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@Duluth said in Super Rugby 2024:
The reporting on the coaching changes has been unreliable. However there was a report a couple of weeks ago the that Cotter removed himself from consideration for the Crusaders job
It seems to make sense. First, it's hard to argue for Penney over Cotter. Plus Cotter had a more lucrative offer from the Blues, and even more lucrative offers from French clubs
It a fair point isn't it, South Island franchises Highlanders and Crusaders simply can't compete with those cashed up Blues and their third-party deals, there's a reason Leon only coached Ta$man - then abruptly left his Crusaders assistant post after just 1 season for the Blue$ top job citing 'family reasons' lol... Super Rugby isn't exactly a level playing field these days is it?
@kiwi_expat said in Super Rugby 2024:
It a fair point isn't it, South Island franchises Highlanders and Crusaders simply can't compete with those cashed up Blues and their third-party deals, there's a reason Leon only coached Ta$man - then abruptly left his Crusaders assistant post after just 1 season for the Blue$ top job citing 'family reasons' lol... Super Rugby isn't exactly a level playing field these days is it?
Crusaders salary bill would be the largest (b/c they have the most ABs) and it's paid for by NZR. Compare their total salary to the Highlanders, that would be the largest discrepancy (most ABs to fewest)
A top up to a coach, or a player, is fiddling at the edges of the real problems
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@Duluth said in Super Rugby 2024:
The reporting on the coaching changes has been unreliable. However there was a report a couple of weeks ago the that Cotter removed himself from consideration for the Crusaders job
It seems to make sense. First, it's hard to argue for Penney over Cotter. Plus Cotter had a more lucrative offer from the Blues, and even more lucrative offers from French clubs
It a fair point isn't it, South Island franchises Highlanders and Crusaders simply can't compete with those cashed up Blues and their third-party deals, there's a reason Leon only coached Ta$man - then abruptly left his Crusaders assistant post after just 1 season for the Blue$ top job citing 'family reasons' lol... Super Rugby isn't exactly a level playing field these days is it?
@kiwi_expat dont bundle up the "evil" crusaders with the poor humble Highlanders!
in all seriousness...you do know they just won...of course they compete with the other franchises, they just got their academy and development (helped with cashed up Ta$man luring people down for NPC too) earlier than others...that breeds success...and success attracts talent...its now self fulfilling to a degree
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@kiwi_expat dont bundle up the "evil" crusaders with the poor humble Highlanders!
in all seriousness...you do know they just won...of course they compete with the other franchises, they just got their academy and development (helped with cashed up Ta$man luring people down for NPC too) earlier than others...that breeds success...and success attracts talent...its now self fulfilling to a degree
@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2024:
@kiwi_expat dont bundle up the "evil" crusaders with the poor humble Highlanders!
in all seriousness...you do know they just won...of course they compete with the other franchises, they just got their academy and development (helped with cashed up Ta$man luring people down for NPC too) earlier than others...that breeds success...and success attracts talent...its now self fulfilling to a degree
Is Ta$man still a thing for the Saders? There are quite a number of Ta$man players with other franchises too. It should go without saying that I am too lazy to check the numbers myself.
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@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2024:
@kiwi_expat dont bundle up the "evil" crusaders with the poor humble Highlanders!
in all seriousness...you do know they just won...of course they compete with the other franchises, they just got their academy and development (helped with cashed up Ta$man luring people down for NPC too) earlier than others...that breeds success...and success attracts talent...its now self fulfilling to a degree
Is Ta$man still a thing for the Saders? There are quite a number of Ta$man players with other franchises too. It should go without saying that I am too lazy to check the numbers myself.
@Crazy-Horse dont know, possibly less so but it use to be and that helped build the current run of success
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@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2024:
@kiwi_expat dont bundle up the "evil" crusaders with the poor humble Highlanders!
in all seriousness...you do know they just won...of course they compete with the other franchises, they just got their academy and development (helped with cashed up Ta$man luring people down for NPC too) earlier than others...that breeds success...and success attracts talent...its now self fulfilling to a degree
Is Ta$man still a thing for the Saders? There are quite a number of Ta$man players with other franchises too. It should go without saying that I am too lazy to check the numbers myself.
@Crazy-Horse Blackadder, Havili, Jordan, Fainga'anuku, Reece, Springer, Hotham, Sykes-Martin, Q. MacDonald, Strange, Havili-Talitui, Chapman are all playing for Ta$man (if they're not with the ABs).
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@kiwi_expat dont bundle up the "evil" crusaders with the poor humble Highlanders!
in all seriousness...you do know they just won...of course they compete with the other franchises, they just got their academy and development (helped with cashed up Ta$man luring people down for NPC too) earlier than others...that breeds success...and success attracts talent...its now self fulfilling to a degree
@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2024:
@kiwi_expat dont bundle up the "evil" crusaders with the poor humble Highlanders!
in all seriousness...you do know they just won...of course they compete with the other franchises, they just got their academy and development (helped with cashed up Ta$man luring people down for NPC too) earlier than others...that breeds success...and success attracts talent...its now self fulfilling to a degree
The Highlanders coaching has been part of the problem... couldn't get the best out of Lo-Willie, Bower, etc. or help them realize their potential, same could be said for Josh Ioane & co who're now thriving at the Chiefs under McMillan...
The difference between Razor (and say Leon at the Blue$...) is his continual development and progression of his players, in contrast to many All Blacks such as Finlay, Beauden, Akira, Hoskins, RTS, etc.. who have all gone backwards under Leon.
Razor has a unique ability to get the most out of all types of players, no matter how talented they may be, over the years he's developed quite a few limited players into All Blacks & XV members, guys like Brewis, Christie, McAlister, Gardiner, McLeod, Drummond, Bridge, Perry, Ennor, Bower, Lo-Willie, etc.. were/will never be long-term All Blacks. Most of these players wouldn't be talented enough to start for other franchises, Hurricanes, Chiefs, Blues.
Look at guys like Sykes-Martin, Gardiner, O'Neill, Heinz, etc.. contributing off the bench in the playoffs, they certainly don't make the 23 of the other NZ franchises.
Many of those players who have flourished under Razor's coaching have been discards or unwanted by other franchises & have come from nowhere like George Bower. I can't recall Razor signing already developed All Blacks from other franchises.
He's skillful enough to take rough unrefined talent (with limitations that would see them not make other franchises) and still produce diamonds out of them - performances at Super Rugby level. Lio-Willie is another who wasn't even good enough to make the Highlanders 23 and now he's thriving under the superior coaching under Razor.
Unlike Leon's Blues from 2019-2023 where he signed established All Blacks from other franchises - Laulala, Big Carl, Barrett, and their development all stalled.
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@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2024:
@kiwi_expat dont bundle up the "evil" crusaders with the poor humble Highlanders!
in all seriousness...you do know they just won...of course they compete with the other franchises, they just got their academy and development (helped with cashed up Ta$man luring people down for NPC too) earlier than others...that breeds success...and success attracts talent...its now self fulfilling to a degree
The Highlanders coaching has been part of the problem... couldn't get the best out of Lo-Willie, Bower, etc. or help them realize their potential, same could be said for Josh Ioane & co who're now thriving at the Chiefs under McMillan...
The difference between Razor (and say Leon at the Blue$...) is his continual development and progression of his players, in contrast to many All Blacks such as Finlay, Beauden, Akira, Hoskins, RTS, etc.. who have all gone backwards under Leon.
Razor has a unique ability to get the most out of all types of players, no matter how talented they may be, over the years he's developed quite a few limited players into All Blacks & XV members, guys like Brewis, Christie, McAlister, Gardiner, McLeod, Drummond, Bridge, Perry, Ennor, Bower, Lo-Willie, etc.. were/will never be long-term All Blacks. Most of these players wouldn't be talented enough to start for other franchises, Hurricanes, Chiefs, Blues.
Look at guys like Sykes-Martin, Gardiner, O'Neill, Heinz, etc.. contributing off the bench in the playoffs, they certainly don't make the 23 of the other NZ franchises.
Many of those players who have flourished under Razor's coaching have been discards or unwanted by other franchises & have come from nowhere like George Bower. I can't recall Razor signing already developed All Blacks from other franchises.
He's skillful enough to take rough unrefined talent (with limitations that would see them not make other franchises) and still produce diamonds out of them - performances at Super Rugby level. Lio-Willie is another who wasn't even good enough to make the Highlanders 23 and now he's thriving under the superior coaching under Razor.
Unlike Leon's Blues from 2019-2023 where he signed established All Blacks from other franchises - Laulala, Big Carl, Barrett, and their development all stalled.
@kiwi_expat Bower never played for the Highlanders though
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@kiwi_expat Bower never played for the Highlanders though
@Kiwiwomble depth at prop 2018/19, behind Lomax, Tokolahi, Johnstone, Lienert-Brown, etc.. he played for the development side I think. The point is Razor takes relatively unknown talent and is skillful enough to develop them further than they would've elsewhere.
He maximizes his resources, he doesn't require already developed All Blacks to be successful (unlike Leon) he takes rough unrefined talent and gets them punching well above their weight at SR level.
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@Kiwiwomble depth at prop 2018/19, behind Lomax, Tokolahi, Johnstone, Lienert-Brown, etc.. he played for the development side I think. The point is Razor takes relatively unknown talent and is skillful enough to develop them further than they would've elsewhere.
He maximizes his resources, he doesn't require already developed All Blacks to be successful (unlike Leon) he takes rough unrefined talent and gets them punching well above their weight at SR level.
Bower was picked up as a injury sub during the season at First then was retained the next year.
Jason Ryan picked him out and schooled him up. -
@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2024:
@kiwi_expat dont bundle up the "evil" crusaders with the poor humble Highlanders!
in all seriousness...you do know they just won...of course they compete with the other franchises, they just got their academy and development (helped with cashed up Ta$man luring people down for NPC too) earlier than others...that breeds success...and success attracts talent...its now self fulfilling to a degree
The Highlanders coaching has been part of the problem... couldn't get the best out of Lo-Willie, Bower, etc. or help them realize their potential, same could be said for Josh Ioane & co who're now thriving at the Chiefs under McMillan...
The difference between Razor (and say Leon at the Blue$...) is his continual development and progression of his players, in contrast to many All Blacks such as Finlay, Beauden, Akira, Hoskins, RTS, etc.. who have all gone backwards under Leon.
Razor has a unique ability to get the most out of all types of players, no matter how talented they may be, over the years he's developed quite a few limited players into All Blacks & XV members, guys like Brewis, Christie, McAlister, Gardiner, McLeod, Drummond, Bridge, Perry, Ennor, Bower, Lo-Willie, etc.. were/will never be long-term All Blacks. Most of these players wouldn't be talented enough to start for other franchises, Hurricanes, Chiefs, Blues.
Look at guys like Sykes-Martin, Gardiner, O'Neill, Heinz, etc.. contributing off the bench in the playoffs, they certainly don't make the 23 of the other NZ franchises.
Many of those players who have flourished under Razor's coaching have been discards or unwanted by other franchises & have come from nowhere like George Bower. I can't recall Razor signing already developed All Blacks from other franchises.
He's skillful enough to take rough unrefined talent (with limitations that would see them not make other franchises) and still produce diamonds out of them - performances at Super Rugby level. Lio-Willie is another who wasn't even good enough to make the Highlanders 23 and now he's thriving under the superior coaching under Razor.
Unlike Leon's Blues from 2019-2023 where he signed established All Blacks from other franchises - Laulala, Big Carl, Barrett, and their development all stalled.
@kiwi_expat Lio-Willie was ignored by Otago for too long. Then when the Highlanders did notice him they didn't take his talent seriously. He should have immediately been given a decent contract. Instead, was a cover player. By the time he was on the paddock for us, he was starting, then got injured. At that point he probably made up his mind. Bower, Moorby and Hotham are the other ones where more of an effort should have been made.
