All Blacks 2024
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@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2024:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks 2024:
@stodders said in All Blacks 2024:
@MiketheSnow so were NZ. What’s your point?
Both teams are missing players who would be pushing for selection in their respective 23s. Those that played were (for the most part) the best available.
Boks sneaked home twice. Experience counts.
Answering an opinion the Boks were settled.
IMHO they are in flux too.
Not really, they are the most settled they have ever been.
Rassie since 2018 and virtually all of their RWC squad still available and lots of 2x RwC winners in most match day 23 squads they pick.
They are bringing through new players but they have a core experience that have played together for a long time.
First Test in Ellis Park
NZ had 13 players in the match day 23 who were in the match day 23 for the RWC 23 Final
SA had 13 players in the match day 23 who were in the match day 23 for the RWC 23 Final
Second Test in Cape Town
NZ had 13 players in the match day 23 who were in the match day 23 for the RWC 23 Final
SA had 14 players in the match day 23 who were in the match day 23 for the RWC 23 Final
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks 2024:
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2024:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks 2024:
@stodders said in All Blacks 2024:
@MiketheSnow so were NZ. What’s your point?
Both teams are missing players who would be pushing for selection in their respective 23s. Those that played were (for the most part) the best available.
Boks sneaked home twice. Experience counts.
Answering an opinion the Boks were settled.
IMHO they are in flux too.
Not really, they are the most settled they have ever been.
Rassie since 2018 and virtually all of their RWC squad still available and lots of 2x RwC winners in most match day 23 squads they pick.
They are bringing through new players but they have a core experience that have played together for a long time.
First Test in Ellis Park
NZ had 13 players in the match day 23 who were in the match day 23 for the RWC 23 Final
SA had 13 players in the match day 23 who were in the match day 23 for the RWC 23 Final
Second Test in Cape Town
NZ had 13 players in the match day 23 who were in the match day 23 for the RWC 23 Final
SA had 14 players in the match day 23 who were in the match day 23 for the RWC 23 Final
So they are pretty settled then.?
They have Rassie at the helm over the last 6 years with the same on field leadership team and they have the confidence to do what they want give they have won back to back world cups.
Of course players, will come in and out of a squad due to rotation, injuries, depth building so it all looks great in the Boks camp.
They are trying to implement a new attacking style with Tony brown as coach which has some teething problems but overall they have looked good at times.
NZ do have a decent amount of players from last year but have lost 3-4 all time greets of the game not just ABs. We do have enough of our squad from last year to perform better than we are though.
Of course we have had a new broom through the coaching team (with about 30 new people in coaching support staff, mgmt etc).
But my reply wasn’t about the AB’s
We are a work in progress, with some obvious flaws in our game. I do believe we have underperformed so far under Razor but there are some positives as well.
Losing to SA in SA by 4 and 6 points is hardly a disaster and most people would have accepted that would be a likely outcome.
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@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks 2024:
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2024:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks 2024:
@stodders said in All Blacks 2024:
@MiketheSnow so were NZ. What’s your point?
Both teams are missing players who would be pushing for selection in their respective 23s. Those that played were (for the most part) the best available.
Boks sneaked home twice. Experience counts.
Answering an opinion the Boks were settled.
IMHO they are in flux too.
Not really, they are the most settled they have ever been.
Rassie since 2018 and virtually all of their RWC squad still available and lots of 2x RwC winners in most match day 23 squads they pick.
They are bringing through new players but they have a core experience that have played together for a long time.
First Test in Ellis Park
NZ had 13 players in the match day 23 who were in the match day 23 for the RWC 23 Final
SA had 13 players in the match day 23 who were in the match day 23 for the RWC 23 Final
Second Test in Cape Town
NZ had 13 players in the match day 23 who were in the match day 23 for the RWC 23 Final
SA had 14 players in the match day 23 who were in the match day 23 for the RWC 23 Final
So they are pretty settled then.?
They have Rassie at the helm over the last 6 years with the same on field leadership team and they have the confidence to do what they want give they have won back to back world cups.
Of course players, will come in and out of a squad due to rotation, injuries, depth building so it all looks great in the Boks camp.
They are trying to implement a new attacking style with Tony brown as coach which has some teething problems but overall they have looked good at times.
NZ do have a decent amount of players from last year but have lost 3-4 all time greets of the game not just ABs. We do have enough of our squad from last year to perform better than we are though.
Of course we have had a new broom through the coaching team (with about 30 new people in coaching support staff, mgmt etc).
But my reply wasn’t about the AB’s
We are a work in progress, with some obvious flaws in our game. I do believe we have underperformed so far under Razor but there are some positives as well.
Losing to SA in SA by 4 and 6 points is hardly a disaster and most people would have accepted that would be a likely outcome.
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2024:
They have Rassie at the helm over the last 6 years with the same on field leadership team and they have the confidence to do what they want give they have won back to back world cups.
This was the argument for Foster - a continuity candidate.
I am not saying I agree with it, but I could understand the initial appointment.
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It's actually quite startling the progress our forward pack has made over the past year.
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Our defense on the line is not good. We keep conceding soft tries - just a few phases at the line and someone bursts over and scores. It's how we ship so many points - conceding low risk scores is infuriating. Who is defence coach?
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Our defense on the line is not good. We keep conceding soft tries - just a few phases at the line and someone bursts over and scores. It's how we ship so many points - conceding low risk scores is infuriating. Who is defence coach?
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
Our defense on the line is not good. We keep conceding soft tries - just a few phases at the line and someone bursts over and scores. It's how we ship so many points - conceding low risk scores is infuriating. Who is defence coach?
Agree mate, I have said before, we seem to get disconnected often when under pressure.
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Our defense on the line is not good. We keep conceding soft tries - just a few phases at the line and someone bursts over and scores. It's how we ship so many points - conceding low risk scores is infuriating. Who is defence coach?
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
Our defense on the line is not good. We keep conceding soft tries - just a few phases at the line and someone bursts over and scores. It's how we ship so many points - conceding low risk scores is infuriating. Who is defence coach?
Can't blame this one on Scott McLeod anymore
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
Our defense on the line is not good. We keep conceding soft tries - just a few phases at the line and someone bursts over and scores. It's how we ship so many points - conceding low risk scores is infuriating. Who is defence coach?
Agree mate, I have said before, we seem to get disconnected often when under pressure.
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2024:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
Our defense on the line is not good. We keep conceding soft tries - just a few phases at the line and someone bursts over and scores. It's how we ship so many points - conceding low risk scores is infuriating. Who is defence coach?
Agree mate, I have said before, we seem to get disconnected often when under pressure.
Was just watching the Kolisi try at 48 min in Bokke 2 again, and I want to throw things.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
Our defense on the line is not good. We keep conceding soft tries - just a few phases at the line and someone bursts over and scores. It's how we ship so many points - conceding low risk scores is infuriating. Who is defence coach?
Can't blame this one on Scott McLeod anymore
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
Our defense on the line is not good. We keep conceding soft tries - just a few phases at the line and someone bursts over and scores. It's how we ship so many points - conceding low risk scores is infuriating. Who is defence coach?
Can't blame this one on Scott McLeod anymore
too many Scott's? It's Scott Hansen apparently
https://www.allblacks.com/news/all-blacks-unveil-2024-management-group
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@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks 2024:
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2024:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks 2024:
@stodders said in All Blacks 2024:
@MiketheSnow so were NZ. What’s your point?
Both teams are missing players who would be pushing for selection in their respective 23s. Those that played were (for the most part) the best available.
Boks sneaked home twice. Experience counts.
Answering an opinion the Boks were settled.
IMHO they are in flux too.
Not really, they are the most settled they have ever been.
Rassie since 2018 and virtually all of their RWC squad still available and lots of 2x RwC winners in most match day 23 squads they pick.
They are bringing through new players but they have a core experience that have played together for a long time.
First Test in Ellis Park
NZ had 13 players in the match day 23 who were in the match day 23 for the RWC 23 Final
SA had 13 players in the match day 23 who were in the match day 23 for the RWC 23 Final
Second Test in Cape Town
NZ had 13 players in the match day 23 who were in the match day 23 for the RWC 23 Final
SA had 14 players in the match day 23 who were in the match day 23 for the RWC 23 Final
So they are pretty settled then.?
They have Rassie at the helm over the last 6 years with the same on field leadership team and they have the confidence to do what they want give they have won back to back world cups.
Of course players, will come in and out of a squad due to rotation, injuries, depth building so it all looks great in the Boks camp.
They are trying to implement a new attacking style with Tony brown as coach which has some teething problems but overall they have looked good at times.
NZ do have a decent amount of players from last year but have lost 3-4 all time greets of the game not just ABs. We do have enough of our squad from last year to perform better than we are though.
Of course we have had a new broom through the coaching team (with about 30 new people in coaching support staff, mgmt etc).
But my reply wasn’t about the AB’s
We are a work in progress, with some obvious flaws in our game. I do believe we have underperformed so far under Razor but there are some positives as well.
Losing to SA in SA by 4 and 6 points is hardly a disaster and most people would have accepted that would be a likely outcome.
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2024:
Losing to SA in SA by 4 and 6 points is hardly a disaster. and most people would have accepted that.
It may be a minority view, but I really don't find losing 31-27 when you were 27-14 up with 12 minutes to go in any way acceptable.
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@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2024:
Losing to SA in SA by 4 and 6 points is hardly a disaster. and most people would have accepted that.
It may be a minority view, but I really don't find losing 31-27 when you were 27-14 up with 12 minutes to go in any way acceptable.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024:
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2024:
Losing to SA in SA by 4 and 6 points is hardly a disaster. and most people would have accepted that.
It may be a minority view, but I really don't find losing 31-27 when you were 27-14 up with 12 minutes to go in any way acceptable.
It's not, but balancing that is thta being up 27-14 with 12 minutes to go was way above expectations.
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@Snowy said in All Blacks 2024:
The comparisons between Foster and Robertson are seriously premature. One had years to get better (apparently without doing so, assistants aside) the other has had months. As has been mentioned the Arg loss (which was appalling) was dreadful defence, then that got better and our offence is atrocious. Hopefully that is pendulum swinging and we find some balance.
We had RWC finalist players so pretty much had to start with them, move on from there. Like most here my major gripe is the loosies and we did have two good options that we didn’t try (yes Akira has been tried in the past but Kaino was too, he worked out OK when given another crack). We also need to address the outside backs, and to give Foster his due, as a full back Jordan makes an excellent wing. Even a stopped clock…
Change takes time and while it is happening life can be really shit.
The comparisons with Foster are due to the fact that Razor was posited as a panacea to stale tactics and selection policies that had been allowed to fester since around 2017.
Robertson was seen as a breath of fresh air. A positive guy who would revive and refresh the Allblacks.
While I agree he has only been in the job a few months , you’d think he would have come in to the job with some innovations or left field selection ideas in his arse pocket.
Instead we are watching the same bonkers chip kicks and exits, the same ensemble cast of underachievers, line fluffers and card magnets and the same evasive corporate jargon press conferences as the last guy .
He has already parted ways with one of his coaches which is indicative of inadequate preparation which was something I thought we didn’t have to worry about with Razor. I thought he was a rugby savant, but he is looking like a vibes guy. “It will be grand”.
Finau is in ahead of Akira and then dropped. He selects Beaudy as a 10 and a heap of outside backs in his first squad. Beaudy never plays 10 and outside backs such as Narawa get no minutes and are then dropped. Narawa is replaced by Love who comes in and gets…..no minutes. Perofeta is in the squad and then gone. If you are going to put your bollocks on the line by not selecting the Super Rugby MVP Sotutu in the whole squad, your madcap idea of 4 or 5 open side flankers better work. It hasn’t really has it.
If we had a back row of Finau, Sotutu and Papalii and Stevenson at 15 and Proctor at 13 I’d forgive a couple of losses as we are blooding new combos etc.
He’s currently just failing as much as the last guy did, with the same fucking players. What did he think was going to happen.
The longer this slump goes on , his legacy is going to look like he rode the coat tails of Whitelock and Mo’unga and was found out once they were gone.
He needs to sort it out. Fast.
He’s had at least 4 years to prepare for this job.
@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
If we had a back row of Finau, Sotutu and Papalii and Stevenson at 15 and Proctor at 13 I’d forgive a couple of losses as we are blooding new combos etc.
I think this is part of the problem though - people in general wouldn't accept us getting towelled by 15-20 points, heck we are seeing a meltdown after losing two close tests.
Fact is, we are in between generations because for about a 4-6 year period, the production line was not as good as it has been, shown by the U20 Results.
Our best front rowers (outside of Taylor) are all 26 and under. Our five best locks (outside of Barrett) are all 24 and under. These guys will be peaking at the next World Cup.
Loose forwards remain a mish mash, because we are forced to stick with older guys, as the likes of Finau simply have not stepped up. If I was Razor and company, I would persist with Sititi, Cane/Papalii and Savea for the next couple of tests. Peter Lakai to me eventually comes in at 7, then it is a question of whether Savea is at 8 or is an impact sub. Plenty of blindsides coming through, so Sititi will eventually move to 8. This will sort itself.
Then the backs.
Halfback stocks look good, it will just take time for Ratima & Roigard to build up experience. First five is a massive issue, highlighted by the fact we are begging Mo'unga to come back. We haven't seen an 'All Black level' first five come through since Mo'unga. Hopefully one of Jacomb, Millar (or someone else) can really step up. I'd be tempted to pick one on the EOYT, purely because we need to start looking at someone. Plummer is not the answer, he is an injury stop gap.
Midfielders isn't a problem. Barrett and Ioane are doing a perfectly fine job. ALB and Procter certainly worth a try if you want to move Ioane back to the wing, but it is the least of our worries.
Outside backs will be fine too. Clarke has nailed down the left wing, and I think Jordan remains the option on the right wing. The two fullbacks is certainly necessary with the aerial strategies that will be employed - or at the very least a winger who is excellent under the high ball. Reece and Tele'a are on the way out I think, so who comes next? Narawa and Tavatavanawai would be the two I'd look at. Love to get a go at fullback too. These are regardless all inexperienced guys, and we couldn't chuck them all in at once.
In Foster's first year we lost to Argentina for the first time, and were a missed kick on full-time away from losing a home Bledisloe test - this is hardly comparable.
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@Yeahtheboys said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
Fozzie never lost a Rugby Championship
Foster only had ONE actual full RC with home and away.
2020 - no SA
2021 - no away games to SA or ARG because of COVID
2022 - the only proper RC, we had two games in SA and the 2nd test win was the decider for the entire RC, a wins a win but that match was an anomaly, the players going all out in a freak match knowing full and well that a loss would mean their coach being Sacked
2023 - shortened RC, only 3 games, and 2 of them against SA/AUS we were at home.
Razor with the current team wins each one of these.
The Foster revisionism is truly amazing.
You actually have to watch the games back from before Schmidt and Ryan joined to appreciate how truly bad our rugby was.I remember feeling HOPELESS against even Argentina we were that bad.
Every loss this year we have legitimately been in a good position and thrown it away, It's a completely different context to the lows of the Foster era where we never looked like winning ANY game.
@kpkanz said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
The Foster revisionism is truly amazing.
You're right, it is amazing. Just maybe not in the way you think....
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@kpkanz said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
The Foster revisionism is truly amazing.
You're right, it is amazing. Just maybe not in the way you think....
@Victor-Meldrew said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@kpkanz said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
The Foster revisionism is truly amazing.
You're right, it is amazing. Just maybe not in the way you think....
Fair play, Foster's record and quality took a major uptick after the RWC performances. That team was playing to their potential - I did not think they had it in them.
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@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
If we had a back row of Finau, Sotutu and Papalii and Stevenson at 15 and Proctor at 13 I’d forgive a couple of losses as we are blooding new combos etc.
I think this is part of the problem though - people in general wouldn't accept us getting towelled by 15-20 points, heck we are seeing a meltdown after losing two close tests.
Fact is, we are in between generations because for about a 4-6 year period, the production line was not as good as it has been, shown by the U20 Results.
Our best front rowers (outside of Taylor) are all 26 and under. Our five best locks (outside of Barrett) are all 24 and under. These guys will be peaking at the next World Cup.
Loose forwards remain a mish mash, because we are forced to stick with older guys, as the likes of Finau simply have not stepped up. If I was Razor and company, I would persist with Sititi, Cane/Papalii and Savea for the next couple of tests. Peter Lakai to me eventually comes in at 7, then it is a question of whether Savea is at 8 or is an impact sub. Plenty of blindsides coming through, so Sititi will eventually move to 8. This will sort itself.
Then the backs.
Halfback stocks look good, it will just take time for Ratima & Roigard to build up experience. First five is a massive issue, highlighted by the fact we are begging Mo'unga to come back. We haven't seen an 'All Black level' first five come through since Mo'unga. Hopefully one of Jacomb, Millar (or someone else) can really step up. I'd be tempted to pick one on the EOYT, purely because we need to start looking at someone. Plummer is not the answer, he is an injury stop gap.
Midfielders isn't a problem. Barrett and Ioane are doing a perfectly fine job. ALB and Procter certainly worth a try if you want to move Ioane back to the wing, but it is the least of our worries.
Outside backs will be fine too. Clarke has nailed down the left wing, and I think Jordan remains the option on the right wing. The two fullbacks is certainly necessary with the aerial strategies that will be employed - or at the very least a winger who is excellent under the high ball. Reece and Tele'a are on the way out I think, so who comes next? Narawa and Tavatavanawai would be the two I'd look at. Love to get a go at fullback too. These are regardless all inexperienced guys, and we couldn't chuck them all in at once.
In Foster's first year we lost to Argentina for the first time, and were a missed kick on full-time away from losing a home Bledisloe test - this is hardly comparable.
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@Yeahtheboys said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@kpkanz “razor wins each one of them” based on fucking what? He lost to Argentina at home?
Because I'm comparing the rugby we're playing under Razor to the rugby we played under Foster??
Which was the worst I have ever seen the All Blacks play in decades of watching?Our Argentina loss this year we were up 20-8 and threw the game away where we basically handed 2 free tries and collapsed. A game we blew.
Do you not remember the Argentina losses under Foster?
In those games we were genuinely dominated from minute 1 to minute 80. At NO point in those entire games did we look like winning.That has not happened once in Razors first year. All 3 losses we had a legitimate chance for victory, 2 of them where we had no right to lose from the position we were in.
So yes this is magnitudes better than Fosters first 2 years before Schmidt/Ryan joined.
@kpkanz said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@Yeahtheboys said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@kpkanz “razor wins each one of them” based on fucking what? He lost to Argentina at home?
Because I'm comparing the rugby we're playing under Razor to the rugby we played under Foster??
Which was the worst I have ever seen the All Blacks play in decades of watching?Our Argentina loss this year we were up 20-8 and threw the game away where we basically handed 2 free tries and collapsed. A game we blew.
Do you not remember the Argentina losses under Foster?
In those games we were genuinely dominated from minute 1 to minute 80. At NO point in those entire games did we look like winning.That has not happened once in Razors first year. All 3 losses we had a legitimate chance for victory, 2 of them where we had no right to lose from the position we were in.
So yes this is magnitudes better than Fosters first 2 years before Schmidt/Ryan joined.
Mate, what Foster did or didn't do 3 years ago has got bugger all to do with current AB problems.
We've gone from losing RWC 2023 to SA by one point with (14 men) to blowing a 27-14 lead at 68 minutes to lose 31-27 to SA. (And before you start throwing the "loss of experienced players" bullshit, both sides had 13 of their 23 at the RWC on that day)
How the fuck you regard that as progress or proof that we're playing better rugby overall under Robertson is beyond me.
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A lot of talented blindside LF are emerging : Haig, Wrampling, Suafoa, Smith (on potential) and I would add Delaney and Stodart to this list. The latter's running is abrasive. I don't know much about his defensive talents, though. McCurran, who is currently playing as a Nr.8 for the Mooloos, is a former opensider. He has been very impressive so far. I hope he gets a SR contract and I would like to see him with the 7 jersey at a higher level than NPC.
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@Windows97 said in All Blacks 2024:
Yes we were close against SA and could have won both if only rugby was a 60 minute game. The last 20 minutes really cost us and it was the same in the loss to Arg.
I'd say most teams would have said the same about playing the ABs under the Henry/Hansen era. Unfortunately for them, and for us right now, the last 20 minutes is where test matches are won and lost.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2024:
@Windows97 said in All Blacks 2024:
Yes we were close against SA and could have won both if only rugby was a 60 minute game. The last 20 minutes really cost us and it was the same in the loss to Arg.
I'd say most teams would have said the same about playing the ABs under the Henry/Hansen era. Unfortunately for them, and for us right now, the last 20 minutes is where test matches are won and lost.
Yes the last 20 was a key strength for the AB's back in the good old days
if the game was close, even if we were behind we had the ability to dig deep and claw our way back. Sometimes winning ugly and sometimes winning sublimely, this team just can't seem to win. -
@Billy-Tell said in All Blacks 2024:
There are some real drama queens on this thread. We weren’t that far off winning the 2 tests in SA. Against a settled SA side and coaching setup. It’s not a compete capitulation like if we were to get our asses handed to us by Australia in consecutive tests. From where we came from under foster to expect to go rapidly from strength to strength is totally unrealistic.
Not wanting to sound like an apologist, but the loss of experience hasn't helped us either
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@Billy-Tell said in All Blacks 2024:
There are some real drama queens on this thread. We weren’t that far off winning the 2 tests in SA. Against a settled SA side and coaching setup. It’s not a compete capitulation like if we were to get our asses handed to us by Australia in consecutive tests. From where we came from under foster to expect to go rapidly from strength to strength is totally unrealistic.
Not wanting to sound like an apologist, but the loss of experience hasn't helped us either
I do very much like the increased use of the word apologist on this forum, especailly after the sten telling off Duluth gave me the first time I used it
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@stodders said in All Blacks 2024:
Experience counts.
Our experience is adding fuck all.
In fact - I'm of the view some of these experienced players are holding us back.
Where are these experienced players to be seen in the last 20 minutes when we need them?
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2024:
@stodders said in All Blacks 2024:
Experience counts.
Our experience is adding fuck all.
In fact - I'm of the view some of these experienced players are holding us back.
Where are these experienced players to be seen in the last 20 minutes when we need them?
That's on point with my fustrations - I remember in Arg1 when our lineout went to kak when Darry (in his second test or something) went off. Our least experinced player went off and no-one else put their hand up to take charge.
