Opinions on possible back-up All Blacks 10s
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@mariner4life said in Opinions on possible back-up All Blacks 10s:
if DH is starting at 12 for the Crusaders then they should not be favourite for the comp
We are never favourites, it’s always the Chiefs and Blues.
“It’s their year”
Havili is fine at 12 at SR level. We used him a little different than what we wanted at test level.
Still prefer him as a fullback.
@ACT-Crusader The anti-Havili narrative from some here is hilarious. He's been a certain starter at 12 for the Crusaders for years now and he's been really good there at SR level. They've won several titles with him at 12 and he's made a crucial contribution to those titles. He has also had some excellent games at 12 for the ABs (Port Elizabeth win, for example). Jordie is clearly the best 12 we have at test level at the moment, but that doesn't make Havili a bad 12. He's a handy squaddie.
Edited to add that I don't expect him to be in the ABs squad for long, if he makes it at all next year. If only due to his age and the fact that I expect some up-and-comers to overtake him. ALB in the same boat, IMO.
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@Windows97 said in Opinions on possible back-up All Blacks 10s:
The main thing this thread shows is that there Dmac, BB and a vast expanse of disagreement filled daylight back to the third choice - who ever that may be.
I'm in the DMac followed by daylight category. And given the cat and dog kickers, I think I might not be alone.
This is one of the early hard decisions for Razor -- can he give Beauden the boot? He must know he should, but the howls of outrage will make it difficult.
(Choosing a captain is the other big one.)
@Chester-Draws said in Opinions on possible back-up All Blacks 10s:
but the howls of outrage will make it difficult.
Where will those howls come from? Not here for sure
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Yeah fair enough but the Crusaders do not see it as wacky ideas as it helped win them 7 titles in 7 years.
You pick players in positions that win you titles that is not wacky ideas.
If the AB selectors can not determine who can make it at test level then we have the complete shit show we have had over the last 4 years.
And thankfully that clown show has ended.@Chris I see those three ideas as temporary fixes or experiments that Razor allowed to continue bc the team was still winning.
I 100% agree re that the AB selectors (under Hansen and then Foster) took those ideas without asking themselves if the idea would work in the test environment. For example, Foster should've asked himself "Given the way I want my 12 to play (getting over the gainline) and the fact that at test level most opposition 12s are 107kg+ monsters, is 95kg David Havili the right player for the 12 jersey?"
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@Nepia said in Opinions on possible back-up All Blacks 10s:
If @MiketheSnow's favourite Morgan makes it I'll kick an elephant.
Welsh guy likes player with Welsh name shock!
His parents spelt his first name wrong to be proper Welsh like though.
Probably the easiest time for quite a while to get a crack at the 10 jersey in the ABs. D Mac is effectively the incumbent (depending on where BB fits in) and he's hardly played there.
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@Windows97 said in Opinions on possible back-up All Blacks 10s:
The main thing this thread shows is that there Dmac, BB and a vast expanse of disagreement filled daylight back to the third choice - who ever that may be.
I'm in the DMac followed by daylight category. And given the cat and dog kickers, I think I might not be alone.
This is one of the early hard decisions for Razor -- can he give Beauden the boot? He must know he should, but the howls of outrage will make it difficult.
(Choosing a captain is the other big one.)
@Chester-Draws Can he give Beauden the boot? <<< THIS IS THE OTHER BIG QUESTION
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@mariner4life said in Opinions on possible back-up All Blacks 10s:
if DH is starting at 12 for the Crusaders then they should not be favourite for the comp
We are never favourites, it’s always the Chiefs and Blues.
“It’s their year”
Havili is fine at 12 at SR level. We used him a little different than what we wanted at test level.
Still prefer him as a fullback.
@ACT-Crusader agree about Havili as 15
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@ACT-Crusader The anti-Havili narrative from some here is hilarious. He's been a certain starter at 12 for the Crusaders for years now and he's been really good there at SR level. They've won several titles with him at 12 and he's made a crucial contribution to those titles. He has also had some excellent games at 12 for the ABs (Port Elizabeth win, for example). Jordie is clearly the best 12 we have at test level at the moment, but that doesn't make Havili a bad 12. He's a handy squaddie.
Edited to add that I don't expect him to be in the ABs squad for long, if he makes it at all next year. If only due to his age and the fact that I expect some up-and-comers to overtake him. ALB in the same boat, IMO.
@Stargazer You make some valid points. For the ABs, I always liked him as outside back cover off the bench.
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@Punch_up and for Bridge it did work for a short window! He was playing at a high level. The form and confidence took a hit but coaches were still giving him game time and the pressure and noise got louder.
I don’t think it had anything to to do with him being a Crusaders player per se, but more that they saw something when he was in a purple patch albeit a short period.
A lot of players have been given chances even when the noise has been louder and whilst the provincial card gets thrown around, I doubt it’s that. Unless you are Wayne Smith and Robbie Deans
@ACT-Crusader Agree to a degree. It's more like AB selectors failed to notice that George Bridge was a temporary "standard-bearer" or "form guy" at the Cru and they rated the Cru management's decision-making in general.
Also, he came along at a time when journos focused on "doing the basics well" and he was the wing doing that... for a short period.
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@Punch_up said in Opinions on possible back-up All Blacks 10s:
@Kiwiwomble said in Opinions on possible back-up All Blacks 10s:
@Punch_up said in Opinions on possible back-up All Blacks 10s:
@Kiwiwomble Two young 1st fives due to start (essentially filling in for another young 10). Cru could've selected 3-4 1st fives in their squad and relegated two of those to the training field, but now Kemara and Reihana know they'll get game time. Possibly McCleod & Aumua (not young, but new to cru) in midfield. I'm biased, bc I don't rate Ennor or Havili there. Hotham at 9. This seems to be the season when they hand over the keys.
….so the crusaders ARE ALSO giving young promising guys a run…rather than the inept ones
Yeah, I just meant that the cru are giving opportunities to youngsters in DECISION-MAKING positions (9, 10, 12).
hastie is a 9, millar a 10 and faleafaga a 10/12......
@Kiwiwomble Fair enough. On a related note, could the Highlanders not have made a bigger play for say 1 or 2 first-fives from the chiefs and the odd midfielder from the Hurricanes? Those two teams way too stacked in those positions (with quality players looking at cameos at Super level instead of perhaps starring roles at the Highlanders).
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@Punch_up and for Bridge it did work for a short window! He was playing at a high level. The form and confidence took a hit but coaches were still giving him game time and the pressure and noise got louder.
I don’t think it had anything to to do with him being a Crusaders player per se, but more that they saw something when he was in a purple patch albeit a short period.
A lot of players have been given chances even when the noise has been louder and whilst the provincial card gets thrown around, I doubt it’s that. Unless you are Wayne Smith and Robbie Deans
@ACT-Crusader said in Opinions on possible back-up All Blacks 10s:
@Punch_up and for Bridge it did work for a short window! He was playing at a high level. The form and confidence took a hit but coaches were still giving him game time and the pressure and noise got louder.
I don’t think it had anything to to do with him being a Crusaders player per se, but more that they saw something when he was in a purple patch albeit a short period.
A lot of players have been given chances even when the noise has been louder and whilst the provincial card gets thrown around, I doubt it’s that. Unless you are Wayne Smith and Robbie Deans
I remember bridge on an eoyt game in Japan , (from memory there were 2 squads , he wasn’t part of the main group but he played in this game ) as a team we didn’t play particularly well , but he scored 2 or 3 long range tries and everyone went wow , why isn’t he a regular allblack ? And he was selected the next year .
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@Kiwiwomble Fair enough. On a related note, could the Highlanders not have made a bigger play for say 1 or 2 first-fives from the chiefs and the odd midfielder from the Hurricanes? Those two teams way too stacked in those positions (with quality players looking at cameos at Super level instead of perhaps starring roles at the Highlanders).
@Punch_up said in Opinions on possible back-up All Blacks 10s:
@Kiwiwomble Fair enough. On a related note, could the Highlanders not have made a bigger play for say 1 or 2 first-fives from the chiefs and the odd midfielder from the Hurricanes? Those two teams way too stacked in those positions (with quality players looking at cameos at Super level instead of perhaps starring roles at the Highlanders).
People say this kind of thing all the time…how do we know they didn’t?
Players just might not want to come to the smallest of the five hubs and to the teams with one of if not the worst record
You can’t really buy your way to the top with salary caps and shit…and the one time we tried In 2013 we had our worst run in history
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@Punch_up said in Opinions on possible back-up All Blacks 10s:
@Kiwiwomble Fair enough. On a related note, could the Highlanders not have made a bigger play for say 1 or 2 first-fives from the chiefs and the odd midfielder from the Hurricanes? Those two teams way too stacked in those positions (with quality players looking at cameos at Super level instead of perhaps starring roles at the Highlanders).
People say this kind of thing all the time…how do we know they didn’t?
Players just might not want to come to the smallest of the five hubs and to the teams with one of if not the worst record
You can’t really buy your way to the top with salary caps and shit…and the one time we tried In 2013 we had our worst run in history
@Kiwiwomble I hear you, but I wonder if their pitches were on point in terms of content. Not necessarily depending $$$ to lure, but on career prospects...
For example, in an attempt to recruit/poach a promising first five, I would definitely emphasize:
- The big picture: New AB coach. New WC cycle. Richie Mounga gone. If you're ever gonna give getting into the black jersey frame a shot, this is the year.
- But Super rugby game time is key. The Highlanders can all but guarantee a good dose of that, bc no AB incumbent in the Highlander 10 jersey (so, no automatic minus 5 starts for other 10s)
- The draw of partnering with Fakatava (one of the premier 9s - top 2 really) and establishing combinations with other newcomer backs such as Kneepkens.
- A mention of the forward pack (de Groot, Holland, Parkinson) couldn't have hurt.
But I get your point tho.
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@Kiwiwomble Fair enough. On a related note, could the Highlanders not have made a bigger play for say 1 or 2 first-fives from the chiefs and the odd midfielder from the Hurricanes? Those two teams way too stacked in those positions (with quality players looking at cameos at Super level instead of perhaps starring roles at the Highlanders).
@Punch_up said in Opinions on possible back-up All Blacks 10s:
On a related note, could the Highlanders not have made a bigger play for say 1 or 2 first-fives from the chiefs
Both Gatland and Ioane left the Highlanders for the Chiefs, so that is hardly a great selling point if you are wanting a player to go in the other direction.
The only 1st 5s from the Chiefs region that the Highlanders could have made a play for are Jacomb and Hohepa. Kemara and Cashmore had already signed elsewhere, and Trask was in the Chiefs long-term plans. I don't see a problem in the Highlanders investing in their local talent in that position.
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@ACT-Crusader said in Opinions on possible back-up All Blacks 10s:
@Punch_up and for Bridge it did work for a short window! He was playing at a high level. The form and confidence took a hit but coaches were still giving him game time and the pressure and noise got louder.
I don’t think it had anything to to do with him being a Crusaders player per se, but more that they saw something when he was in a purple patch albeit a short period.
A lot of players have been given chances even when the noise has been louder and whilst the provincial card gets thrown around, I doubt it’s that. Unless you are Wayne Smith and Robbie Deans
I remember bridge on an eoyt game in Japan , (from memory there were 2 squads , he wasn’t part of the main group but he played in this game ) as a team we didn’t play particularly well , but he scored 2 or 3 long range tries and everyone went wow , why isn’t he a regular allblack ? And he was selected the next year .
@kiwiinmelb said in Opinions on possible back-up All Blacks 10s:
@ACT-Crusader said in Opinions on possible back-up All Blacks 10s:
@Punch_up and for Bridge it did work for a short window! He was playing at a high level. The form and confidence took a hit but coaches were still giving him game time and the pressure and noise got louder.
I don’t think it had anything to to do with him being a Crusaders player per se, but more that they saw something when he was in a purple patch albeit a short period.
A lot of players have been given chances even when the noise has been louder and whilst the provincial card gets thrown around, I doubt it’s that. Unless you are Wayne Smith and Robbie Deans
I remember bridge on an eoyt game in Japan , (from memory there were 2 squads , he wasn’t part of the main group but he played in this game ) as a team we didn’t play particularly well , but he scored 2 or 3 long range tries and everyone went wow , why isn’t he a regular allblack ? And he was selected the next year .
Bridge was an odd one for me, he was for a couple of years one of those players who wasn't spectacular athletically but always seemed to be in the right place at the right time - like Conrad Smith who could just read a game and get himself in the right position. I rated him and thought he deserved a crack at the AB's.
Then during the covid disruption when the AB's came back and it was like he had a brain transplant or something - he was just awful, hands like feet on attack, hopelessly out of position on defense. You had an unspectacular winger who had lost all their game sense and went from being "in the right place at the right time" to "a hopelessly lost headless chicken".
Then again Fozzie's preferred method of backline play did seem to be the headless chicken approach so maybe he just picked up on this style of play at a faster rate than the rest of his peers??
Sorry for the complete digression here but I've never seen someone do such a convincing job of playing themselves out of team.
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@Kiwiwomble I hear you, but I wonder if their pitches were on point in terms of content. Not necessarily depending $$$ to lure, but on career prospects...
For example, in an attempt to recruit/poach a promising first five, I would definitely emphasize:
- The big picture: New AB coach. New WC cycle. Richie Mounga gone. If you're ever gonna give getting into the black jersey frame a shot, this is the year.
- But Super rugby game time is key. The Highlanders can all but guarantee a good dose of that, bc no AB incumbent in the Highlander 10 jersey (so, no automatic minus 5 starts for other 10s)
- The draw of partnering with Fakatava (one of the premier 9s - top 2 really) and establishing combinations with other newcomer backs such as Kneepkens.
- A mention of the forward pack (de Groot, Holland, Parkinson) couldn't have hurt.
But I get your point tho.
@Punch_up how shit do you think the HIghlanders management is if you think they dont mentioned that kind of stuff when talking to new recruit?...thats all pretty basic stuff...in fact i would say the players and their management will already be aware of those things and when they talk to a team they will be asking about the style of rugby thats going to be played and load of other things that we cant see just from reading the squad list
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@Punch_up how shit do you think the HIghlanders management is if you think they dont mentioned that kind of stuff when talking to new recruit?...thats all pretty basic stuff...in fact i would say the players and their management will already be aware of those things and when they talk to a team they will be asking about the style of rugby thats going to be played and load of other things that we cant see just from reading the squad list
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@kiwiinmelb said in Opinions on possible back-up All Blacks 10s:
@ACT-Crusader said in Opinions on possible back-up All Blacks 10s:
@Punch_up and for Bridge it did work for a short window! He was playing at a high level. The form and confidence took a hit but coaches were still giving him game time and the pressure and noise got louder.
I don’t think it had anything to to do with him being a Crusaders player per se, but more that they saw something when he was in a purple patch albeit a short period.
A lot of players have been given chances even when the noise has been louder and whilst the provincial card gets thrown around, I doubt it’s that. Unless you are Wayne Smith and Robbie Deans
I remember bridge on an eoyt game in Japan , (from memory there were 2 squads , he wasn’t part of the main group but he played in this game ) as a team we didn’t play particularly well , but he scored 2 or 3 long range tries and everyone went wow , why isn’t he a regular allblack ? And he was selected the next year .
Bridge was an odd one for me, he was for a couple of years one of those players who wasn't spectacular athletically but always seemed to be in the right place at the right time - like Conrad Smith who could just read a game and get himself in the right position. I rated him and thought he deserved a crack at the AB's.
Then during the covid disruption when the AB's came back and it was like he had a brain transplant or something - he was just awful, hands like feet on attack, hopelessly out of position on defense. You had an unspectacular winger who had lost all their game sense and went from being "in the right place at the right time" to "a hopelessly lost headless chicken".
Then again Fozzie's preferred method of backline play did seem to be the headless chicken approach so maybe he just picked up on this style of play at a faster rate than the rest of his peers??
Sorry for the complete digression here but I've never seen someone do such a convincing job of playing themselves out of team.
@Windows97 he scored a load of tries for the Crusaders, and was the most underwhelming winger doing it. When he was stinking up the field I pulled the highlights - he beat something like 2 or 3 players in total in his 12-14 tries in Super. It was a classic case of being on the end of the chain, in space, and just falling over the tryline.
Didn't help he was being selected ahead of Rieko (the coaches seemed to struggle to get him playing well, too)
anyway all behind us now thank god
