Mental Illness.
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@Machpants said in Mental Illness.:
ndeed, and interestingly guts makes a difference too, we are discovering that our gut microme is a massive influencer of mental health, and out gut microbes are 50% of what they were a few hundred years ago
Apparently they now are considering the gut as a second brain, for want of a better term and yep, hugely significant.
Re the other comments above - to consider depression, or anxiety, as purely chemical imbalances in the brain is thought to be an oversimplification (as you say @reprobate ). It certainly can happen with those results, and yes drugs can alter that, but we don't know enough about it. Serotonin alone is massively complex in what it does and how it affects us. And to come back to the Machpants gut comment it is produced both in the brain and the gastrointestinal tract so very significant as a clue as to how the gut does affect us, and how we should be treating the whole body as a being, not compartmentalising the mind or brain. The body is very much a team effort.
The reason that I mention serotonin is because it was believed that lack of it caused depression but there is actually no evidence to back that up. Even defining depression is problematic, diagnosing more difficult still, and pathology...
Yes, some cases are distinct, diagnosable and treatable, but there are many variables.We also generally learn what works for us to help as well. Whether it be exercise, meditation, playing with the dog, whatever, and it is also why younger people are so problematic, they probably haven't worked out what causes them problems or what helps to remedy it. Most of us adults (term used loosely in my case) still haven't worked it all out.
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@Snowy said in Mental Illness.:
There are some other misconceptions as well about suicide rates being higher when times are tough, or at least unusual. There is some data that rates drop during wartime, economic depressions (unfortunate word) and even during pandemics (including covid). There could be many and varied reasons that are apparent but the "not coping" thing isn't really about external factors it tends to be a more existential crisis. @MajorRage mentioned the "what's the point?" thought. It's a big one. Difficult to know an answer unless you happen to know the meaning of life (if so please DM me).
You are the only one I read that mentioned COVID-19, maybe there were more, but I think the isolation factor and fewer social contacts have had a huge influence on many, especially teenagers, and young adults (grumpy old men, maybe not quite so much). This and our smaller, more isolated families, and possibly diet and the plastics affecting our guts (https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/what-do-we-know-about-microplastics-in-food#The-dangers-of-microplastics) and along with general pollution, perhaps, our mental health (https://www.ehn.org/mental-health-2655533166.html)?
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@Snowy said in Mental Illness.:
@antipodean said in Mental Illness.:
But within the narrow confine of military service, I can't think of much that would top it.
As a possible cause of trauma, not as a measure of trauma.
Yes, cause. Measuring it via PCL is still subjective.
The word comes from Greek, meaning wound, so again it is the outcome, not the event that defines the trauma. There is no "top it" because it doesn't matter what happened, it is what happened to the person afterwards.
The DSM definition/ diagnosis requires exposure to a traumatic event, what happens after is the emotional or psychological response. So back to my point about the veracity of the traumatic episode (or episodes as typified in police etc.)
In one of the most comprehensive studies undertaken of a specific population, the ADF determined it had over a fifth of its members had a mental disorder in the preceding 12 months. This for a group that is supposed to be selected and trained to bear a psychiatric burden related to the nature of their work. Almost 15% for an anxiety disorder and 10% for an affective disorder. The most interesting for me was the lack of statistical differentiation between those who had deployed and those who hadn't.
Related but different is the suicidality of ex-members, which is at a rate significantly over the general population, manifested in those who had involuntary separation,, specifically for those who had medically discharged at lower rank. And I'm not alone in possessing the suspicion that that's related to a loss of identity and perhaps ability to identify other opportunities.
We shall see what the Final Report of the Royal Commission into Defence and Veteran Suicide and the Minister's response brings.
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@Snowy said in Mental Illness.:
@antipodean said in Mental Illness.:
But within the narrow confine of military service, I can't think of much that would top it.
As a possible cause of trauma, not as a measure of trauma. The word comes from Greek, meaning wound, so again it is the outcome, not the event that defines the trauma. There is no "top it" because it doesn't matter what happened, it is what happened to the person afterwards.
I guess that the term PTSD is a bit misleading as it infers that the event itself is the trauma which isn't technically true (my pedantry on the semantics perhaps). PTSED (Post traumatic stress event disorder) is a bit of a mouthful. My understanding, and to para phrase it, is a non normal behaviour pattern caused by an event that a particular person deemed so stressful that it altered their frame of mind and consequent actions. (That is why they didn't let me come up the letters to abbreviate it).
The point is that a failed marriage may cause more trauma than seeing your best mate's brains blown out on a battlefield. It depends on the person. A true psychopath would in fact have no psychological wound at all. Which is not to say that people unaffected by such events are psychopaths, just that they have managed to deal with it. Would be great to know exactly how!
So although combat is not doubt an horrific thing to witness it isn't necessarily going to cause any wound or neuroses (in Freudian terms - the Wiki page is actually quite good). That would depend on the individual, it may range from nil to catatonia, and as such isn't a measure (or "yardstick for trauma" as @bones correctly said). The severity of the event is irrelevant.
Why do I care? It is what makes it so interesting (and difficult to fathom) because what might seem a minor trivial event is actually significant to that person, and yet seeing a children's hospital blown up may not have quite the effect that we would expect it to. Dealing with our own issues is a lot easier if we can identify them. As I said above, I've seen some bloody (literally and figuratively) awful things but they usually aren't front and centre if I feel shit and that the world is a truly awful place. Some of our demons can be latent.
I find this really interesting and as it turns out it is something we have been talking about at work. Many of us are struggling at work at the moment, with staff shortages and being bogged down by domestic violence. Anyway, I have been reflecting on the way I reacted recently to two very different jobs. One involved a battle keeping a guy alive after he slashed his neck open in our presence and the other was investigating a series of very minor complaints by the same woman. The latter has had a far more affect on my state of mind than the former, yet if I went to the boss and said I was struggling it would be assumed and accepted as legitimate if I cited the throat cut as the reason.
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Some great stuff, just had this pop up on SM, mentions the gut and depression.
Had also watched something the other day called "how to not get cancer" and they mentioned the gut alot too.
Full episode
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@Crazy-Horse said in Mental Illness.:
The latter has had a far more affect on my state of mind than the former, yet if I went to the boss and said I was struggling it would be assumed and accepted as legitimate if I cited the throat cut as the reason.
Exactly what I was getting at. These things affect us all differently and we are often surprised at our own reactions. Being aware of that is a start. You are also correct about what other people think about the way we feel, or should feel, so we usually just go along with it. That can lead to the real issue not being addressed and to get all Freudian - repression. Bear in mind that I read about these things happening, misconceptions, and causes but have no idea on solutions. Sadly I'm not alone there. Some things work for some people and not for others, just as the causes are different. One positive for you is that you still give a shit which is healthy, but doesn't make you feel any better.
I'm actually planning on doing a MAPP (Master of Applied Positive Psychology) because I think that the mind is really the major great unknown left on earth.
@antipodean said in Mental Illness.:
The most interesting for me was the lack of statistical differentiation between those who had deployed and those who hadn't.
Yep. There it is again really. Without me jumping to conclusions here and as you suggest, it may be the situation and nature of the job that is the damaging stressor not the violence of combat. Much like the crazy cop's example as well. Your suspicion about the suicide rate is also highly likely from what I have read (and experienced).
In my own case I think personal dramas have caused more distress than for example, the guy who had his foot chopped off with an axe and it went gangrenous. I bloody near smeared myself over the side of a mountain trying get him to hospital and I think that he died anyway. I have much worse and graphic images that I won't share but it was quite disgusting, and his fevered groaning was quite disturbing and upsetting at the time. I'd probably unswallow if I smelled anything even remotely like his rotting foot again, but I think that was the only lasting effect. Having mates not show up for a beer because they didn't get through the day stays with you much more.
Anyway, I've gone on too much on this thread, but I do find it a fascinating topic.
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@Snowy said in Mental Illness.:
@antipodean said in Mental Illness.:
The most interesting for me was the lack of statistical differentiation between those who had deployed and those who hadn't.
Yep. There it is again really. Without me jumping to conclusions here and as you suggest, it may be the situation and nature of the job that is the damaging stressor not the violence of combat.
It goes to the second of my two points I raised originally here; namely that there seems to be near universal acceptance because people merely assert it. I genuinely don't understand how it can be the same when one group hasn't the exposure to the depravities of conflict zones.
What manifests in my mind as a complete lack of resilience and I suspect results from us becoming too comfortable too quickly as a species and evolution hasn't kept pace.
Much like the crazy cop's example as well. Your suspicion about the suicide rate is also highly likely from what I have read (and experienced).
One is about depression (affective) vs trauma (anxiety). Apologies, I should've made that clearer by splitting it into two different posts originally.
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@Snowy said in Mental Illness.:
@antipodean said in Mental Illness.:
But within the narrow confine of military service, I can't think of much that would top it.
As a possible cause of trauma, not as a measure of trauma. The word comes from Greek, meaning wound, so again it is the outcome, not the event that defines the trauma. There is no "top it" because it doesn't matter what happened, it is what happened to the person afterwards.
I guess that the term PTSD is a bit misleading as it infers that the event itself is the trauma which isn't technically true (my pedantry on the semantics perhaps). PTSED (Post traumatic stress event disorder) is a bit of a mouthful. My understanding, and to para phrase it, is a non normal behaviour pattern caused by an event that a particular person deemed so stressful that it altered their frame of mind and consequent actions. (That is why they didn't let me come up the letters to abbreviate it).
The point is that a failed marriage may cause more trauma than seeing your best mate's brains blown out on a battlefield. It depends on the person. A true psychopath would in fact have no psychological wound at all. Which is not to say that people unaffected by such events are psychopaths, just that they have managed to deal with it. Would be great to know exactly how!
So although combat is not doubt an horrific thing to witness it isn't necessarily going to cause any wound or neuroses (in Freudian terms - the Wiki page is actually quite good). That would depend on the individual, it may range from nil to catatonia, and as such isn't a measure (or "yardstick for trauma" as @bones correctly said). The severity of the event is irrelevant.
Why do I care? It is what makes it so interesting (and difficult to fathom) because what might seem a minor trivial event is actually significant to that person, and yet seeing a children's hospital blown up may not have quite the effect that we would expect it to. Dealing with our own issues is a lot easier if we can identify them. As I said above, I've seen some bloody (literally and figuratively) awful things but they usually aren't front and centre if I feel shit and that the world is a truly awful place. Some of our demons can be latent.
PTSD is a really interesting one. Iirc instances of PTSD differ wildly among the armed forces of different countries. I think Norway for example had quite high rates while it was super low for the UK. Avoidance is a massive symptom of PTSD. I definitely saw that with my son.
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Interesting.
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@Machpants said in Mental Illness.:
Good post.
Depression isn't just the result of being unhappy/sad, it's true result of chemicals in the brain. It can be exacerbated by outside life, but it is a medical condition. It can be treated by medicine.
I'm not sure it's actually as simple as that and the jury still seems to be out on whether the chemical imbalance is the cause of depression or is caused by depression. If there's a Depression - Imbalance-Depression vicious circle, then drugs can def. help by breaking that.
That's the worst shit you hear, people saying you've got a good life why are you depressed?
Agree if it's coming from an unsympathetic viewpoint, but as a genuine question, it can be really helpful and enable people to open up and improve their perspective.
There maybe a big part of diet being the problem with our mental health
This plus lack of exercise and too much alcohol. Pretty much proven that exercise is key to fighting depression as it builds endorphins.
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@Smudge said in NZ Politics:
And she's outta here.
And predictably:
"It is clear to me that my mental health is being badly affected by the stresses relating to my work. This has led me to act in ways that are completely out of character."
She added she wasn't "trying to excuse my actions, but I do want to explain them".
"People should, rightly, expect the highest standards of behaviour from their elected representatives. I fell short," she said.
"I'm sorry. It’s not a behaviour I can explain because it's not rational in any way, and after medical evaluation, I understand I'm not well. The mental health professional I see says my recent behaviour is consistent with recent events giving rise to extreme stress response, and relating to previously unrecognised trauma.
That goes to the very thing I've been bitching about in this thread.
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My old man remarried and inherited 4 (adult) children.
Although years before 'mental health' became the issue it is today one of his step-daughter's epitomises the 3 points in the twitter post put up by @Rancid-Schnitzel.
She was a self-entitled whinging bitch. Horribly manipulative, dumb as a rock but cunning with it. Had married well and enjoyed the ex-pat life style in Hong Kong & Singapore. Treated the maids like dofshit on your shoe.
Excused all her bad behaviour (and inability to work) as being due to her mental health issues when the reality was she was a lazy, white trash, skank (without even being hot) who had lucked into marrying a CFO of a global corp and was milking it for all that she could.
She treated her 'mental health' issues like a social event, surrounding herself with likeminded women and attended psychologists, healers and shamans on an almost daily basis. she even phoned into one in LA for three hours a week. She bought a white merc and sold it three days later because one of her 'health professionals' told her white was bad for her karmic soul.
There was nothing wrong with her that I could see apart from a narcissism fueled by idleness and boredom.
Had to laugh when rich hubbie dumped her for the maid.
This is not to say that mental health isn't a serious issue and one that blights way to many lives. Merely that the twitter points resonated. I have met a number of (all) women over the years who actually reveled in their 'sickness' and used it to justify all sorts of unacceptable behaviours.
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@MiketheSnow said in Mental Illness.:
Spot on
The comments certainly hold water for me.
Strangely enough, in one psychoanalyst's book that I have read he pretty much described personal responsibility as being something that gives us, as humans, meaning. Meaning also thought to be one of the key factors in achieving some sort of "happiness" (it's the wrong word really but I won't go into that). So, I agree with this comment:
"But I am seeing a trend of less personal responsibility for bad behavior and a lot more talk about therapy as the only solution."
the interesting part being that it could end up making the situation worse. Not the therapy itself but the thought process. It seems that acting poorly actually makes us feel bad, so it is the act in the first place that starts a spiral, feeling better by therapy leads to more bad behaviour, feeling bad, etc, etc. A bit like it being O.K to commit sins (I'll use that word for context) if all you have to do is confess to be absolved of them...
That philosophy has been around for a while and really doesn't seem to have worked.
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@dogmeat said in Mental Illness.:
She was a self-entitled whinging bitch. Horribly manipulative, dumb as a rock but cunning with it. Had married well and enjoyed the ex-pat life style in Hong Kong & Singapore. Treated the maids like dofshit on your shoe.
I think that I know her - (or she could be one of hundreds that I knew like that).
@dogmeat said in Mental Illness.:
Had to laugh when rich hubbie dumped her for the maid.
That didn't narrow it done much either!
Good illustration of the point though. It really does all come back to the way we live and the environment that you describe is really toxic. It breeds shitty behaviour and really can bring out the worst side of human nature. Then as you mention they form a coven and excuse each other of it.
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@Snowy said in Mental Illness.:
It breeds shitty behaviour and really can bring out the worst side of human nature. Then as you mention they form a coven and excuse each other of it.
You must have observed heaps in HK. In the short times I have spent in both cities there seemed to be two main types of expats. Those that enjoyed the trappings way too much and basically treated the world like it was still the days of 1020's Raj.
the partners were the worst. Too much time on their hands, too much money, too bored to give a fuck.
We crave structure in our lives (most of us anyway). Without it some people can became pretty vile pretty quickly. Sort of related I reckon it's why so many struggle in retirement. Just give me the chance to struggle say i.
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@dogmeat said in Mental Illness.:
Just give me the chance to struggle say i.
Indeed. You can still have structure. Bacon at 8am, golf at 9, lunch at 1, sailing / fishing at 2, dinner at 7, movie, bed. Random intervals and venues for shagging to add some variety. Insert activities of your choice. The only difference is that it's shit that you want to do.
Meaning, or purpose, tend to be where people struggle in retirement although structure comes into it as you say.
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Given my time of life, this is a discussion I am having regularly. I firmly believe that I will be busier than ever in retirement but doing the shit I want to. As far as I can see the only thing I will miss is the regular salary.
The only issue I can see is what to do with the cat while I travel for 6 mths/year.
Anyone want an adorable (honest - well Yeah nah) cat.
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@Snowy said in Mental Illness.:
Meaning, or purpose, tend to be where people struggle in retirement although structure comes into it as you say.
having had some extended time off, this is what concerns me. I'm really struggling to define my purpose now the major stuff is being checked off ... it's really annoying.
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