Super Rugby - The Future
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This was from a paywalled Gregor Paul article. His prediction of what will happen
NZR will finalise its competitions and elite pathways review that will most likely end up with Super Rugby clubs taking control of all aspects of player development. The National Provincial Championship would be shifted to a new, slimmed-down format and possibly even to a new place in the calendar where it runs concurrently with Super Rugby Pacific.@Duluth said in Super Rugby - The Future:
This was from a paywalled Gregor Paul article. His prediction of what will happen
NZR will finalise its competitions and elite pathways review that will most likely end up with **Super Rugby clubs taking control of all aspects of player development.**That would only work with an expanded U20 and Development competition, as we have discussed. The PUs still do a lot of the heavy lifting in player development through their age-group teams. Using the SR U18 teams as an example, they currently play one or two games a year after attending a development camp. Those players in the 18-20 yr old range still rely on playing for club and provincial age-group teams for meaningful games.
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Taniwha (Northland/North Harbour)
Blues (Auckland/Counties)
Chiefs (Waikato/Bay of Plenty)
Bulls (Taranaki)
Vikings (Hawke's Bay/Manawatu)
Hurricanes (Wellington)
Crusaders ( Ta$man/Canterbury)
Highlanders (Otago/Southland)Plus Moana Pasifika, Fijian Drua and the four remaining Australian sides.
@Mr-Fish said in Super Rugby - The Future:
Taniwha (Northland/North Harbour)
Blues (Auckland/Counties)
Chiefs (Waikato/Bay of Plenty)
Bulls (Taranaki)
Vikings (Hawke's Bay/Manawatu)
Hurricanes (Wellington)
Crusaders ( Ta$man/Canterbury)
Highlanders (Otago/Southland)Plus Moana Pasifika, Fijian Drua and the four remaining Australian sides.
Slightly off topic, but trying to think how NPC could be reformed to dovetail with Superb Rugby.
Using the above as inspiration an NTC (National Territorial Cup).
Ten teams consisting of pairs associated with the five SR franchises, being:
Taniwha (N & NH)/Auckland (South of Bridge/CM) -- Blues
Waikato/Bays (BOP/PB/ECB/HB) -- Chiefs
Wellington/TMW Snorters -- Canes
Ta$man/Canterbury -- Saders
Otago/Southland -- ClanPlayed in same window as current NPC.
Given each NTC team might be 50% SR players, the standard ought to be good.
Sharing of expertise and coaching personal would allow dramatic reduction in overheads.
Round Robin, and maybe some type of final.
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@Duluth said in Super Rugby - The Future:
This was from a paywalled Gregor Paul article. His prediction of what will happen
NZR will finalise its competitions and elite pathways review that will most likely end up with **Super Rugby clubs taking control of all aspects of player development.**That would only work with an expanded U20 and Development competition, as we have discussed. The PUs still do a lot of the heavy lifting in player development through their age-group teams. Using the SR U18 teams as an example, they currently play one or two games a year after attending a development camp. Those players in the 18-20 yr old range still rely on playing for club and provincial age-group teams for meaningful games.
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@Mr-Fish said in Super Rugby - The Future:
Taniwha (Northland/North Harbour)
Blues (Auckland/Counties)
Chiefs (Waikato/Bay of Plenty)
Bulls (Taranaki)
Vikings (Hawke's Bay/Manawatu)
Hurricanes (Wellington)
Crusaders ( Ta$man/Canterbury)
Highlanders (Otago/Southland)Plus Moana Pasifika, Fijian Drua and the four remaining Australian sides.
Slightly off topic, but trying to think how NPC could be reformed to dovetail with Superb Rugby.
Using the above as inspiration an NTC (National Territorial Cup).
Ten teams consisting of pairs associated with the five SR franchises, being:
Taniwha (N & NH)/Auckland (South of Bridge/CM) -- Blues
Waikato/Bays (BOP/PB/ECB/HB) -- Chiefs
Wellington/TMW Snorters -- Canes
Ta$man/Canterbury -- Saders
Otago/Southland -- ClanPlayed in same window as current NPC.
Given each NTC team might be 50% SR players, the standard ought to be good.
Sharing of expertise and coaching personal would allow dramatic reduction in overheads.
Round Robin, and maybe some type of final.
@pakman said in Super Rugby - The Future:
@Mr-Fish said in Super Rugby - The Future:
Taniwha (Northland/North Harbour)
Blues (Auckland/Counties)
Chiefs (Waikato/Bay of Plenty)
Bulls (Taranaki)
Vikings (Hawke's Bay/Manawatu)
Hurricanes (Wellington)
Crusaders ( Ta$man/Canterbury)
Highlanders (Otago/Southland)Plus Moana Pasifika, Fijian Drua and the four remaining Australian sides.
Slightly off topic, but trying to think how NPC could be reformed to dovetail with Superb Rugby.
Using the above as inspiration an NTC (National Territorial Cup).
Ten teams consisting of pairs associated with the five SR franchises, being:
Taniwha (N & NH)/Auckland (South of Bridge/CM) -- Blues
Waikato/Bays (BOP/PB/ECB/HB) -- Chiefs
Wellington/TMW Snorters -- Canes
Ta$man/Canterbury -- Saders
Otago/Southland -- ClanGiven each NTC team might be 50% SR players, the standard ought to be good.
Sharing of expertise and coaching personal would allow dramatic reduction in overheads.
Round Robin, and maybe some type of final.
Aim would be to play at stadia size of Tron, which could then be full with great atmosphere. Then piggy back off TV revenue.
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If the professional game and amateur game do eventually separate, GP's suggestion about running the NPC at the same time as SR won't work either. The club and provincial seasons need to follow each other as that's where their (PU) player pool is coming from. We're not going to play test matches at the same time as SR.
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@SouthernMann said in Super Rugby - The Future:
I underestimated the size of a basektball arena. Still much smaller than every team except for the homeless Moana Pasifika. It doesn't change the argument that Super Rugby is generally still more popular than all options except for the warriors
Fair call. It's still a lot less than it was say 10 years ago. The olds used to attend all Hurricanes home games, there was a waitlist for season tickets, and they used to get crowds of 25K+. Maybe Mr Fish is right, most fans can't be bothered heading to the ground to watch games live
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If the professional game and amateur game do eventually separate, GP's suggestion about running the NPC at the same time as SR won't work either. The club and provincial seasons need to follow each other as that's where their (PU) player pool is coming from. We're not going to play test matches at the same time as SR.
@Bovidae said in Super Rugby - The Future:
If the professional game and amateur game do eventually separate, GP's suggestion about running the NPC at the same time as SR won't work either. The club and provincial seasons need to follow each other as that's where their (PU) player pool is coming from. We're not going to play test matches at the same time as SR.
The relationship between Super and international needs to be worked out. Then administrators can sort out the Super schedule. Super U20 needs to be held prior to the club season too. Club seasons around the country need to be aligned to finish at about the same time, give some lead in to the provincial season.I always find it stupid that in recent years club teams lose their best players for the final to play pre-season NPC games. NPC should be innovative in how it schedules, play all their games in one location over a weekend. Limit costs. If the Super season is extended and book ends the international season, or plays through it, does the NPC start 3/4 through it. Are NPC games played as curtain raisers?
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If the professional game and amateur game do eventually separate, GP's suggestion about running the NPC at the same time as SR won't work either. The club and provincial seasons need to follow each other as that's where their (PU) player pool is coming from. We're not going to play test matches at the same time as SR.
If they do separate, I think that having the PU games at the same time as AB windows makes sense - we can fill in the time with Amateur rugby. The trick would be getting it in a format that can be finished within a RC window (for example) but from looking at the calendar that should be somewhat possible.
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@pakman said in Super Rugby - The Future:
@Mr-Fish said in Super Rugby - The Future:
Taniwha (Northland/North Harbour)
Blues (Auckland/Counties)
Chiefs (Waikato/Bay of Plenty)
Bulls (Taranaki)
Vikings (Hawke's Bay/Manawatu)
Hurricanes (Wellington)
Crusaders ( Ta$man/Canterbury)
Highlanders (Otago/Southland)Plus Moana Pasifika, Fijian Drua and the four remaining Australian sides.
Slightly off topic, but trying to think how NPC could be reformed to dovetail with Superb Rugby.
Using the above as inspiration an NTC (National Territorial Cup).
Ten teams consisting of pairs associated with the five SR franchises, being:
Taniwha (N & NH)/Auckland (South of Bridge/CM) -- Blues
Waikato/Bays (BOP/PB/ECB/HB) -- Chiefs
Wellington/TMW Snorters -- Canes
Ta$man/Canterbury -- Saders
Otago/Southland -- ClanGiven each NTC team might be 50% SR players, the standard ought to be good.
Sharing of expertise and coaching personal would allow dramatic reduction in overheads.
Round Robin, and maybe some type of final.
Aim would be to play at stadia size of Tron, which could then be full with great atmosphere. Then piggy back off TV revenue.
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@Mr-Fish said in Super Rugby - The Future:
Taniwha (Northland/North Harbour)
Blues (Auckland/Counties)
Chiefs (Waikato/Bay of Plenty)
Bulls (Taranaki)
Vikings (Hawke's Bay/Manawatu)
Hurricanes (Wellington)
Crusaders ( Ta$man/Canterbury)
Highlanders (Otago/Southland)Plus Moana Pasifika, Fijian Drua and the four remaining Australian sides.
Slightly off topic, but trying to think how NPC could be reformed to dovetail with Superb Rugby.
Using the above as inspiration an NTC (National Territorial Cup).
Ten teams consisting of pairs associated with the five SR franchises, being:
Taniwha (N & NH)/Auckland (South of Bridge/CM) -- Blues
Waikato/Bays (BOP/PB/ECB/HB) -- Chiefs
Wellington/TMW Snorters -- Canes
Ta$man/Canterbury -- Saders
Otago/Southland -- ClanPlayed in same window as current NPC.
Given each NTC team might be 50% SR players, the standard ought to be good.
Sharing of expertise and coaching personal would allow dramatic reduction in overheads.
Round Robin, and maybe some type of final.
@pakman said in Super Rugby - The Future:
@Mr-Fish said in Super Rugby - The Future:
Taniwha (Northland/North Harbour)
Blues (Auckland/Counties)
Chiefs (Waikato/Bay of Plenty)
Bulls (Taranaki)
Vikings (Hawke's Bay/Manawatu)
Hurricanes (Wellington)
Crusaders ( Ta$man/Canterbury)
Highlanders (Otago/Southland)Plus Moana Pasifika, Fijian Drua and the four remaining Australian sides.
Slightly off topic, but trying to think how NPC could be reformed to dovetail with Superb Rugby.
Using the above as inspiration an NTC (National Territorial Cup).
Ten teams consisting of pairs associated with the five SR franchises, being:
Taniwha (N & NH)/Auckland (South of Bridge/CM) -- Blues
Waikato/Bays (BOP/PB/ECB/HB) -- Chiefs
Wellington/TMW Snorters -- Canes
Ta$man/Canterbury -- Saders
Otago/Southland -- ClanPlayed in same window as current NPC.
Given each NTC team might be 50% SR players, the standard ought to be good.
Sharing of expertise and coaching personal would allow dramatic reduction in overheads.
Round Robin, and maybe some type of final.
HB ok
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While this big governance review is going on and possible changes to the national rugby structure, points for them to consider in no particular order:
- double round robin Super Rugby with an emphasis on home games in provincial cities, allocated days for different levels of rugby.
- NPC as an amateur competition for Senior A club players to aspire too.
- Super Rugby Development or under 21s played as a curtain raiser comp for 10-15 weeks
- Everything the same as it is now but with allocated days for rugby levels i.e pro rugby- Sunday, club - Saturday, junior and high school- midweek
- phase out super rugby when licences end and replace with PU 10 team pro comp starting June after 8 weeks of club.
- 10 High Performance districts instead of 31ish currently
- NZRPA create LIV Rugby and 200 players go off shore and we play amateur rugby
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While this big governance review is going on and possible changes to the national rugby structure, points for them to consider in no particular order:
- double round robin Super Rugby with an emphasis on home games in provincial cities, allocated days for different levels of rugby.
- NPC as an amateur competition for Senior A club players to aspire too.
- Super Rugby Development or under 21s played as a curtain raiser comp for 10-15 weeks
- Everything the same as it is now but with allocated days for rugby levels i.e pro rugby- Sunday, club - Saturday, junior and high school- midweek
- phase out super rugby when licences end and replace with PU 10 team pro comp starting June after 8 weeks of club.
- 10 High Performance districts instead of 31ish currently
- NZRPA create LIV Rugby and 200 players go off shore and we play amateur rugby
@BorderJB said in Super Rugby - The Future:
While this big governance review is going on and possible changes to the national rugby structure, points for them to consider in no particular order:
- double round robin Super Rugby with an emphasis on home games in provincial cities, allocated days for different levels of rugby.
- NPC as an amateur competition for Senior A club players to aspire too.
- Super Rugby Development or under 21s played as a curtain raiser comp for 10-15 weeks
- Everything the same as it is now but with allocated days for rugby levels i.e pro rugby- Sunday, club - Saturday, junior and high school- midweek
- phase out super rugby when licences end and replace with PU 10 team pro comp starting June after 8 weeks of club.
- 10 High Performance districts instead of 31ish currently
- NZRPA create LIV Rugby and 200 players go off shore and we play amateur rugby
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While this big governance review is going on and possible changes to the national rugby structure, points for them to consider in no particular order:
- double round robin Super Rugby with an emphasis on home games in provincial cities, allocated days for different levels of rugby.
- NPC as an amateur competition for Senior A club players to aspire too.
- Super Rugby Development or under 21s played as a curtain raiser comp for 10-15 weeks
- Everything the same as it is now but with allocated days for rugby levels i.e pro rugby- Sunday, club - Saturday, junior and high school- midweek
- phase out super rugby when licences end and replace with PU 10 team pro comp starting June after 8 weeks of club.
- 10 High Performance districts instead of 31ish currently
- NZRPA create LIV Rugby and 200 players go off shore and we play amateur rugby
@BorderJB said in Super Rugby - The Future:
NPC as an amateur competition for Senior A club players to aspire too.
Also players should have to come from the club competition. One of the issues at the moment is NPC sides acting like franchises and signing players who play in different club competitions. Make it a real representative competition again
If some club competitions are too strong (Auckland, Christchurch etc) maybe they should have two teams representing different regions of the cities
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While this big governance review is going on and possible changes to the national rugby structure, points for them to consider in no particular order:
- double round robin Super Rugby with an emphasis on home games in provincial cities, allocated days for different levels of rugby.
- NPC as an amateur competition for Senior A club players to aspire too.
- Super Rugby Development or under 21s played as a curtain raiser comp for 10-15 weeks
- Everything the same as it is now but with allocated days for rugby levels i.e pro rugby- Sunday, club - Saturday, junior and high school- midweek
- phase out super rugby when licences end and replace with PU 10 team pro comp starting June after 8 weeks of club.
- 10 High Performance districts instead of 31ish currently
- NZRPA create LIV Rugby and 200 players go off shore and we play amateur rugby
@BorderJB said in Super Rugby - The Future:
allocated days for different levels of rugby.
I like this idea in principle, it's like NFL - the overwhelming majority of games are:
Friday - School
Saturday - NCAA
Sunday - NFLYou could have
Friday night NPC (5, 7pm)
Saturday afternoon Club (2pm)
Saturday late afternoon/evening Super (4, 6, 8pm kickoffs)
Sunday afternoon NPC (2pm)
Sunday late afternoon Super (4, 6)That gets you 3 NPC slots a weekend, and 5 Super slots. If there aren't that many Super games needed, add NPC
Or you restrict NPC TV time and just focus on Super for Friday/Saturday nights and late afternoon Saturday and afternoon Sunday. That's 5 slots again.
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How many NPC slots are even open for club players most years? A lot of the nostalgic fans say it gives club players to shine on the national stage. Does it though? Most unions will have at least 20 players signed up by the end of the year before. There will then be half a dozen or 10 19 - 20 year olds they want to develop. They tend to be the first cab off the rank. The years of the Greg Zampach's coming through and debuting at 27 or 28 seem to be over. You have your provincial contracted players (often Super players), guys coming back from tbe likes of the MLR, the high-performance guys and stuff all room for the club performers. Seperating Super from NPC, may actually give the club guys something to play for. It may even keep guys in club footy for longer. Colts rugby is pretty much voided in Dunedin now. Any kid who is good enough goes straight into club prems. Club prems looks like an U23 competition with a few older guys being the glue in teams.
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How many NPC slots are even open for club players most years? A lot of the nostalgic fans say it gives club players to shine on the national stage. Does it though? Most unions will have at least 20 players signed up by the end of the year before. There will then be half a dozen or 10 19 - 20 year olds they want to develop. They tend to be the first cab off the rank. The years of the Greg Zampach's coming through and debuting at 27 or 28 seem to be over. You have your provincial contracted players (often Super players), guys coming back from tbe likes of the MLR, the high-performance guys and stuff all room for the club performers. Seperating Super from NPC, may actually give the club guys something to play for. It may even keep guys in club footy for longer. Colts rugby is pretty much voided in Dunedin now. Any kid who is good enough goes straight into club prems. Club prems looks like an U23 competition with a few older guys being the glue in teams.
I did a rough count last season and Auckland & Canterbury had around 30 places taken up by SR players. Auckland then used most of the remainaing places to secure age group/7's players Spencer/Tangitau/Clark etc
The system is completely broken and has been for a long time
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I know a couple of the young Waikato NPC players are playing in MLR. Another is in Hong Kong, and I assume he will be back for the NPC. These types of players won't remain in NZ to play in a solely amateur NPC under the current structure. So either we increase the number of professional SR teams (to include a Development/Reserve Grade), or they are lost to NZ rugby.
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I did a rough count last season and Auckland & Canterbury had around 30 places taken up by SR players. Auckland then used most of the remainaing places to secure age group/7's players Spencer/Tangitau/Clark etc
The system is completely broken and has been for a long time
@Duluth said in Super Rugby - The Future:
I did a rough count last season and Auckland & Canterbury had around 30 places taken up by SR players. Auckland then used most of the remainaing places to secure age group/7's players Spencer/Tangitau/Clark etc
The system is completely broken and has been for a long time
Provincial unions have effectively blocked the pathway for their players to make their representative teams, by ensuring professional players get a pay top up for the back end of the year?
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@Duluth said in Super Rugby - The Future:
I did a rough count last season and Auckland & Canterbury had around 30 places taken up by SR players. Auckland then used most of the remainaing places to secure age group/7's players Spencer/Tangitau/Clark etc
The system is completely broken and has been for a long time
Provincial unions have effectively blocked the pathway for their players to make their representative teams, by ensuring professional players get a pay top up for the back end of the year?
I don't think the PU's have a choice though.
Many people still think of the the old NPC system.. club rugby happened first and then the NPC squad was picked on club form.
Now NPC players sign multi year contracts and when they succeed, they play little or no club rugby
I can think of ways to change the competition to fix that but there's nothing an individual union can do
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@BorderJB said in Super Rugby - The Future:
allocated days for different levels of rugby.
I like this idea in principle, it's like NFL - the overwhelming majority of games are:
Friday - School
Saturday - NCAA
Sunday - NFLYou could have
Friday night NPC (5, 7pm)
Saturday afternoon Club (2pm)
Saturday late afternoon/evening Super (4, 6, 8pm kickoffs)
Sunday afternoon NPC (2pm)
Sunday late afternoon Super (4, 6)That gets you 3 NPC slots a weekend, and 5 Super slots. If there aren't that many Super games needed, add NPC
Or you restrict NPC TV time and just focus on Super for Friday/Saturday nights and late afternoon Saturday and afternoon Sunday. That's 5 slots again.
@nzzp said in Super Rugby - The Future:
@BorderJB said in Super Rugby - The Future:
allocated days for different levels of rugby.
I like this idea in principle, it's like NFL - the overwhelming majority of games are:
Friday - School
Saturday - NCAA
Sunday - NFLYou could have
Friday night NPC (5, 7pm)
Saturday afternoon Club (2pm)
Saturday late afternoon/evening Super (4, 6, 8pm kickoffs)
Sunday afternoon NPC (2pm)
Sunday late afternoon Super (4, 6)That gets you 3 NPC slots a weekend, and 5 Super slots. If there aren't that many Super games needed, add NPC
Or you restrict NPC TV time and just focus on Super for Friday/Saturday nights and late afternoon Saturday and afternoon Sunday. That's 5 slots again.
I think that Friday 5pm and Saturday 4/6pm game should be for reserve Super and maybe U20s.
I think the PU rugby should be focused on getting crowds and local - so games against neighbor unions and one team from a regional round robin goes to finals.
Coverage is via web and gets shown on a new Heartland show with summaries of all of the games. That still gets the Amateurs on TV and there is likely some TV market for the game of the round. I’m not sure it should get too much investment though - that’s the current problem, money needs to go to the bottom not PU high performance
